Thanks brother Q, In your response towards me you have some very valid points and I will make it a point to re read that later and maybe then I will respond. Till then
peace be with you
Brother Neil
Hi Asuri,
[quote]Bums and kings, the mighty and the powerless, the good, the bad, the ugly and the beautiful, the dumb and the smart: They’re all equal to me, I mock them where I see fit, I praise them where I see fit. Is that no agreeable attitude?
Now who is the hypocrite?[/quote]you know who you are. However, is the attitude agreeable or is the attitude not agreeable?
I’ll bet you don’t talk to your boss like that.
I used to, when I had a boss. It was indeed problematic since some bosses don’t like to be criticized. I got in trouble, but not too much, because I always have a point and most bosses actually like intelligent people with ideas on how to make things work or work better.
Now, fortunately, I am my own boss and yes, I mock myself a whole lot. As well as my wife, my son, my family, my friends. And it’s all good.
It’s easy to be critical when you’re sitting behind a computer screen and typing. Who are you, god? All may be equal in the eyes of god, but not to people in the real world.
Then I’m god, hello, nice to meet you.
If you don’t like the people here, and you don’t care if you get kicked out, why don’t you just leave, instead of hanging around stirring up trouble?
Dude, I don’t know how often you need me to repeat myself:
First I tried to simply understand what was going on. “Hello, why do you no longer reply?” Then, when being ignored, I did leave, or better, did not participate anymore.
Then I saw the hypocrisy going on and questioned that, because it a) confused me (is the problem on my side? Did I not understand something?) and b) made me angry (who the hell are these people to treat me and others who don’t match their expectations like dirt?), and so I vented the anger where it was caused.
Then this weird “conversation” started, where people questioned me and where I am willing to engage the discussion.
So if you’d shut up about this already, I’d do so too. Or let’s say, from now on I will only reply to posts that make sense, as I have replied to nonsense often enough, didn’t I.
[quote]Quote:
So after all we have come to the conclusion, that this guy is absolutely right
Nobody said you were absolutely right, except for you. You may have made a point or two in the right way, but absolutely right? No.[/quote]Then why don’t you show me where I - in your opinion - am right or wrong?
And dude, what’s now been the point of our great conversation? You not having a point and I’m being supposed to reply and reply and reply?
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Hi Brother Neil,
Thanks brother Q, In your response towards me you have some very valid points and I will make it a point to re read that later and maybe then I will respond. Till then
peace be with you
excellent.
You’re just way too clever for me, Q.
"isn’t it like that? Take yourself as an example, do you want to engage me in a conversation or is all you want talking about me?
Yes, this is your third reply, so two of your replies have not been answered by me. And one of these two replies consisted of one question “Do you feel better now?”, which, my rethorically unskilled friend, is hardly a reply. However, the reason I don’t reply to any sardonic comment is that I don’t care to argue and that I don’t have time for that. Now, though, since I’m da bad boy in da house, I have some, so here ya go, big brother:"
At the time I was curious if you felt better, was there some sardonic tone to it, what does sardonic mean? I could look it up but am not going to. so maybe that one sentence to you was 50% curiosity on how you felt, 50% being sardonic. Can you answer the 50 % curiosity part?
"I’m not talking about people who are hypocrites “at times”. The ones I talk about I perceive to be actual hypocrites regarding to an aspect or point. Maybe have another look at the definition:
So I think indeed that hypocrites are not “trying”.
How am I a hypocrite?
And no, I don’t respect someone for being a hypocrite. I don’t respect someone for being a liar. Why would I? I respect them as human beings, though + as I have stated about three zillion times, that’s why I’m willing to discuss with them instead of throwing stones at them from behind the safeguard of a smug speech."
I agree I could try harder, thats very true. I also agree that I dont really need to experess my viewpoint but rather live it. I hope that will continue to grow in time and that I live a life I am actually proud of. WIll I always do that at all times in the future, I could say yes and then end up being a hypocrical again. Have I learned anything I can talk about now without being a hypocrite Brother Q?
How are you a hypocrite? well I can only speculate based on what I have read from you. You do seem to be wise, and you also are not to proud to let us know that you know it. OK. Are your responses always up to par with your wisdom? And if the answer is no, would you be hypocritical at the times when there not?
““No Brother Neil, the correct question is do you really care to discuss or rather argue. And the correct answer is “no, you don’t”””
So your asking if I would like to discuss or argue and the answer is no I dont? Well I should not hold you too much to sentence structure because i dont pay much attention to grammar and sentence structure myself. . Sometimes I like discussion, sometimes argument If an argument occurs, hopefully something positive comes out of it.
Quetzalcoatl, why so angry with everything and everyone?
I’ve been away a long time, but read this thread and a couple of the others referenced here. I am just not understanding all the anger.
I DO understand that anger is a reactive emotion, what was the first emotion that prompted the anger? Hurt?
I’m sorry you are feeling hurt, excluded, singled out, attacked, (I hope I’ve hit the right descriptor here somewhere) would you be willing to put all these feelings behind you and start over?
Hello and welcome Quetzalcoatl. What made you choose this name if I may ask? Are you interested in Mayan history?
Hi Brother Neil,
[quote]"isn’t it like that? Take yourself as an example, do you want to engage me in a conversation or is all you want talking about me?
Yes, this is your third reply, so two of your replies have not been answered by me. And one of these two replies consisted of one question “Do you feel better now?”, which, my rethorically unskilled friend, is hardly a reply. However, the reason I don’t reply to any sardonic comment is that I don’t care to argue and that I don’t have time for that. Now, though, since I’m da bad boy in da house, I have some, so here ya go, big brother:"
At the time I was curious if you felt better, was there some sardonic tone to it, what does sardonic mean? I could look it up but am not going to. so maybe that one sentence to you was 50% curiosity on how you felt, 50% being sardonic. Can you answer the 50 % curiosity part?[/quote]sure, and I did. I have written a lot about my feelings in this thread. But to finally answer your very own question:
Yes, expressing what bothered me made me feel better. Of course.
However, the possible implication that all I wanted was venting some unjustified anger is still wrong, just like the probable, yet not outspoken assumption that venting anger is wrong. Anger itself: Not wrong. It’s a natural source of energy.
[quote]"I’m not talking about people who are hypocrites “at times”. The ones I talk about I perceive to be actual hypocrites regarding to an aspect or point. Maybe have another look at the definition:
So I think indeed that hypocrites are not “trying”.
How am I a hypocrite?
And no, I don’t respect someone for being a hypocrite. I don’t respect someone for being a liar. Why would I? I respect them as human beings, though + as I have stated about three zillion times, that’s why I’m willing to discuss with them instead of throwing stones at them from behind the safeguard of a smug speech."
I agree I could try harder, thats very true.[/quote]I was not refering to you, though obviously you could indeed have done either more or less than just throwing in some sardonic comments.
I also agree that I dont really need to experess my viewpoint but rather live it.
There is no better way to make a difference than being an example of that difference.
I hope that will continue to grow in time and that I live a life I am actually proud of.
Pride is a deadly sin.
WIll I always do that at all times in the future, I could say yes and then end up being a hypocrical again. Have I learned anything I can talk about now without being a hypocrite Brother Q?
I believe you do not yet fully understand the concept of hypocrisy. Let’s try some comparisons:
If you would’ve murdered someone, you would always be a murderer, because a murderer is someone who murdered someone. And since you can’t undo a murder, you’d always remain being a murderer, no matter how sorry you might at some point feel about it, no matter if you turned into a good samaritan to outbalance the bad Karma.
If you would hate races other than your own, you’d be a racist, because a racist is someone who hates other races than their own. But if you at some point stopped to hate other races, you’d stop being a racist. You would always remain a person who once was a racist, but you weren’t a racist anymore.
Therefore:
If you stop being hypocritical, you’d stop being a hypocrite and you could talk about all sorts of things without being a hypocrite. If you do not stop being hypocritical, you could talk about all sorts of things and would always remain being a hypocrite. That, though, being a hypocrite, does not mean that anything you talk about is an expression of that hypocrisy. If you, for example, were a vegetarian because you truly think killing animals is wrong, and if you talked about it, this would not be hypocritical. But if you were at the same time a very intolerant person but stated that you were very tolerant, that would be hypocrisy. So if you talked about your vegetarism you’d not express your hypocrisy with that talk, but yet be a hypocrite because you’re constituting yourself to be one with the persistant profession of tolerance that is inconsistant with your intolerant actions.
I hope this shed some light.
How are you a hypocrite? well I can only speculate based on what I have read from you. You do seem to be wise, and you also are not to proud to let us know that you know it. OK. Are your responses always up to par with your wisdom? And if the answer is no, would you be hypocritical at the times when there not?
Misconception: I don’t consider myself to be wise, I in fact know that I am not. I’m pretty smart, but that’s not an achievement of my own, it came with my genes, you know, something like being taller than the average person. For example do I know “all” about non-violence. I know that I am violent, not terribly much, not enough to stand in one line with robbers and rapists, but I know that some of the things I say are hurtful. I do even wish it was different, that I would not feel the need to be hurtful, but: It is not so. So all I could do with the violence I express for example on this board, is surpressing it.
However, I justify expressing my anger with the fact that I am not supposed to be a perfect lil guy + the anger was caused and created by the people towards I expressed it. So I think I have the right to equalize my anger here and I think that it should be use- and helpful if the people who caused it know what they caused and how they did it.
It could be a win-win-situation if those people could accept that and work with it.
[quote]"“No Brother Neil, the correct question is do you really care to discuss or rather argue. And the correct answer is “no, you don’t””"
So your asking if I would like to discuss or argue and the answer is no I dont?[/quote]I think this is the first post of yours where you actually try to discuss. It’s quite obvious that you really try, but still: You try. Before this, you either didn’t or I didn’t notice.
Well I should not hold you too much to sentence structure because i dont pay much attention to grammar and sentence structure myself.
Yeah, you shouldn’t, as you’ve seen I was refering to the question if you would like to discuss.
Sometimes I like discussion, sometimes argument If an argument occurs, hopefully something positive comes out of it.
Sure, me too. Just that one tends to stick to their point in an argument, because agreeing with some you argue with feels like loosing a fight.
Hi Alix,
I’d like to reply to your post under the shining light of your humble note in this other thread:
Core789, belief is belief. There are those who will be rigid and those who will be open to new ideas. Religion is not the only fora in which this occurs. If I’m not mistaken we’ve seen rigidity and an unwillingness to see others viewpoints on this very forum in the last few days.
Without getting too much into my own personal philosophies, I believe there is a very valid point in not opening your mind to ANYTHING as there is much in this world that is not goodness and light. I’ve seen many things that I did not once believe could exist. To open oneself to be “empty” you take a risk unless you prepare carefully first.
The longer I live and the more I experience the more open I become to seeing the truth in many different points of view. A weak/untutored mind is not one to be seeking emptiness in this fashion IMHO. A good teacher is invaluable.
So here we go:
Quetzalcoatl, why so angry with everything and everyone?
Why exaggerate? I’ve been so angry with only some ones and some things. And I explained in detail all about it. Are you willing to see my viewpoint or do you really not understand those many + IMHO quite simple explanations?
I’ve been away a long time, but read this thread and a couple of the others referenced here. I am just not understanding all the anger.
What of those detailed explanations did you not understand? Feel free to bring it up and I’ll try to clearify.
I DO understand that anger is a reactive emotion, what was the first emotion that prompted the anger? Hurt?
It was confusion. As I said. In case you don’t count that as an emotion, anger already was the first.
I’m sorry you are feeling hurt, excluded, singled out, attacked, (I hope I’ve hit the right descriptor here somewhere) would you be willing to put all these feelings behind you and start over?
This is not about feelings, but about qualities. My feeling of anger is only an emotional companion of the rational judgement of a quality, and it serves a purpose, in this case, to provide me with enough energy to bring my point accross the barricades that I encounter.
I know it must be simple to just assume me being some miserable guy with inappropriate, if not pathological emotional responses. But I must disagree with that explanatory model, since my anger was not even intense enough to cause more of a physical symptom than a frown. That should be quite healthy considering the - if you need to, let’s say “alleged” - qualities it accompanies.
But those emotions and their expression in angry speeches of a harsh tone had been elevated and promoted as the core-problem of the whole issue. I say, frowning, harsh, for example “it’s unbelievable how hypocritical you are, it disgusts me, you are not a teacher of Yoga!” and it’s discussed like I punched someone in the face. With a club. Spiked with rusty nails. I must be removed for such statements, sent to the gulag, never to be heard of again. That is a disproportional response, particularly if my perception is wrong and could be elucidated in less than, I don’t know, more than 100 posts as of now.
The result of my personal analysis of it all is: This has - mostly consciously, in some cases maybe unconsciously - been done to avoid an examination of what I regard as the actual core-problem. Take yourself, I’m not sure about you, but I cannot believe that you truly fail to understand that emotional response of mine and all you have to say about this whole debate of 100+ posts is “why so angry, Q?”. I also fail to understand what you expect from it, from my viewpoint you’re simply the next guy to tell me, without an explanation, that I’m a bad person who behaves bad. You think that makes a difference? Introduces something new?
So “starting over” is something I cannot even relate to. This isn’t a playground where I want to join a game, while the big kids won’t let me in. This is a place where the ideas of Yoga are represented, and in my perception the people I criticized failed to do a proper, and instead do one very lousy job, because their professions are persistently inconsistent with their actions. What could I start over? My opinion has not been changed.
However can I still respond to your starting-over-performance, though you must allow me to find it a little amusing:
Hello and welcome Quetzalcoatl.
Hello & thanks.
What made you choose this name if I may ask?
You may:
Are you interested in Mayan history?
The lost mesoamerican civilisations in general. The name Quetzalcoatl means “feathered serpent”, I think it is a eligible name to use on a Yoga forum.
Acceptance of yourself .
Then acceptance of others, i would have thought, should follow or certainly be a lot easier.
Sort yourself out first before you try and think about wanting to sort out others.
In fact the only thing to sort out is yourself.The rest will follow and take care of itself.
I think basic respecting of other people and their different view-points should’nt be that difficult. It is such a simple one yet it can often seem to be really difficult.Often it’s people’s emotional reactions you find rather than anything they actually believe in.People sometimes can be more interested in being argumentative for it’s own sake than actually stating that they think & feel.Especially when you get knee-jerk reactions that don’t seem that considered or reflective.Folk may just rattle the first thing that comes off the top of their mind, at times.
Q, I choose to step out here too. I thought perhaps a friendly gesture might be welcome.
Confusion is definitely an emotion, and I agree it often precedes anger.
I am beginning to remember why I left this place. For a forum that is about all things Yoga its remarkably negative. Folks take a lot of things very personally that were not intended in a personal manner at all. The reactions tend to be very personally directed and nasty in some cases.
I try to remember that text is a lousy medium for conveying emotion and that we often misunderstand one another when all we have is text. I am learning today that both you and core789 had a strong reaction to my post. It was not my intention to instruct or teach either of you, I was attempting to share my personal feeling and clearly didn’t choose my words carefully enough.
Ciao.
[quote=Alix;32136]
I am beginning to remember why I left this place. For a forum that is about all things Yoga its remarkably negative. Folks take a lot of things very personally that were not intended in a personal manner at all. The reactions tend to be very personally directed and nasty in some cases.[/quote]
Really? I guess I look at the forum half full. I think it’s full of beautiful, positive, supportive yoga practitioners who only once in awhile react or misinterpret a little which is understandable since so many of us are going deep inside and jarring things loose. I love the people here and hope I can meet many in person one day. Including you 
<3
I’m learning as well. I found David’s post:
Hahahah
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
…
[B]BWAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHAH[/B]
Extremely enlightening, and it made my day. Thank you David!
Hi Alix,
Q, I choose to step out here too.
I’m not surprised.
I thought perhaps a friendly gesture might be welcome.
Sure. But there was none. You see, it must be a gesture that I perceive as friendly. And the display of a total + unexplained lack of understanding, followed by an interest in my name (!) isn’t doing the trick.
What did you not understand? What’s so difficult?
Confusion is definitely an emotion, and I agree it often precedes anger.
See.
I am beginning to remember why I left this place. For a forum that is about all things Yoga its remarkably negative.
I couldn’t agree more, just that I see a different source for that negativity.
Folks take a lot of things very personally that were not intended in a personal manner at all. The reactions tend to be very personally directed and nasty in some cases.
One thing I don’t even understand remotely is, what’s so bad about directing something personally. We are persons, aren’t we? I say something, it creates a reaction in you, you say something, it creates a reaction in me. Why would we direct our reactions anywhere else but at each other? Where could we? Take your note about “folks”: Now who could that be? “Folks”? Some people who lived in caves a billion years ago? We all know who “folks” are, so why not address the nasty things you have to say about “folks” personally at the persons? So they can respond? Talk it over, like adults?
I try to remember that text is a lousy medium for conveying emotion and that we often misunderstand one another when all we have is text. I am learning today that both you and core789 had a strong reaction to my post. It was not my intention to instruct or teach either of you, I was attempting to share my personal feeling and clearly didn’t choose my words carefully enough.
I can only speak for myself, and I had no strong reaction to anything you said. I quoted your post from the other thread because I wanted to remind you of “The longer I live and the more I experience the more open I become to seeing the truth in many different points of view. A weak/untutored mind is not one to be seeking emptiness in this fashion IMHO.” and put this “discussion” into a close context of it. That’s it. I guess you notice in retrospective, that your note is not humble at all. It’s bold. If it was true, it’d simply be a fact that to note is allright. But it isn’t. And if you check out the consistency of your professions with your actions, what’s your conclusion? Do you indeed have the claimed strong/tutored mind that is seeking emptiness in a fashion to see the truth in many different points of view? Or not?
I wonder what different point of view you really do see truth in and would ask you for an example, but:
Ciao.
Off you go.
I think I mentioned it already: I wonder how you people deal with stuff that’s really something hard to bear. This is just a forum, some text. What if you were confronted with a racist? Someone who beats their children or wifes? A rapist? A murderer? A child-abuser? Do you fall into a coma?
This thread has been educational, hilarious, and mind-boggling. We’ve had people take their ball and gone home, attack each other privately via PM, jump into an alligator pit and get upset when they get bit, share wonderful dialogue, steal others’ identities, show tremendous amounts of love and acceptance, and an amazing amount of other… ummm… stuff.
I have one group of people planning to leave if I don’t do X, another group of people planning to leave if I don’t do Y, and a group of other people who have already left. So no matter what I choose to do, people will leave.
It’s hilarious, really. I wonder if this sort of stuff happens at regular yoga studios and sanghas and I’ve never bothered to pay much attention or get involved. My guess is yes. Us humans sure like our drama. For a group of people who are trying to empty their mind we sure do a lot to fill them. Maybe I should put yogaforums.com up for a reality TV series. 
So what am I going to do about all this? At present, because I don’t know how to proceed, I’m simply going to sit with it, maybe empty my mind a little, and do little other than what I feel is best based upon each particular post at that moment in time. Will that result in bans? I don’t know. If that causes some of you to leave I sincerely wish you well. I let you go with love and acceptance, which is all I can do.
P.S. Hahahahahahah.
P.P.S. With all the said, I stand by the following assertion:
I think it’s [this forum] full of beautiful, positive, supportive yoga practitioners who only once in awhile react or misinterpret a little which is understandable since so many of us are going deep inside and jarring things loose. I love the people here and hope I can meet many in person one day.
P.P.P.S. I think this thread has gone far enough and we can all use a breather. Thread closed.