another paraphrase that described ancient Christian movement away from kosher dietary restrictions – what goes in your mouth isn’t the sin; it’s what comes out that counts.
Well, Apostle Paul does not count because he was immune even to snake poison.
Surely, eating meat would not harm him, either. 
And The Christ also said, when asked why His disciple do not fast, that it is inappropriate for the guests to fast when they have the groom amongst them … but they will fast once the groom is gone. (Free quoting)
So, if the Groom is with you, eat whatever you like, if He ain’t, perhaps you might need fasting. 
[QUOTE=Techne;15004]another paraphrase that described ancient Christian movement away from kosher dietary restrictions – what goes in your mouth isn’t the sin; it’s what comes out that counts.[/QUOTE]
The mantra Maranatha is in Aramaic, the language of Jesus Christ. It means
Lord Jesus come.
http://www.wccm.org/item.asp?recordid=faqs01&pagestyle=default
I think it was introduced by Father John Main, promoter of Christian meditation.
That’s right. I found it in my Chatechism.
[QUOTE=Fin;13044]
Paying attention to details such as eating food conducive to your body can help. Also I keep away from processed food, frozen food, leftovers, etc. Just don’t like them. My taste buds loves very fresh and pure foods.
The possibilities of enjoying delicious vegetarian food are endless:
Consider cooked vegetables of various kind, usually 2-3 types at a time, such as broccoli, cabbage, courgettes (zucchini), carrots, corn, cauliflower, brussel sprouts, fennel (anise), mushrooms, green leafy veggies, fresh peas snap beans, etc. Cooked in my case with vata - reducing spices, unrefined salt, ccocout oil, seasame oil, or ghee, perhaps some vegetable buillon or coconut milk. Add some Almonds (skin removed) and Cashew nuts. The result is delicious. Eat this with some couscous, Basmati Rice or Whole-wheat Chapattis or Pitta Bread. If your mouth is not watering by now ? it should be.
Oh & why not start with a salad, e.g. red leaf lettuce, cucumber, 1/2 avocado, celery, cilantro, parsley, basil, perhaps some bell pepper, grated carrot, roasted pumpkins seeds, a little almond milk and olive oil as dressing, adjust to take account of your body type.
For main dish consider also Kidney Beans, soaked over night then allowed to cook (or boil) in a slow cooker for a few hours (you don?t have to be there when it is doing this) then near mid-day curry them with tumeric,cloves, cinnamon, ginger, garam masal, and other Indian spices ? this eaten with rice or chapattis with some lemon squeezed on it ?delicious!
I can suggest many many possibilities of healthy & energizing recipe that does not take a lot of time and is delicious, let me know your Ayurvedic Body Type ? I suspect you are Pitta/Vata.
Electric slow cooker is great for beans such as Kidney beans, Mung Beans, chickpea or [I]garbanzo [/I][I]beans ? all beans a great source of nutrients.[/I]
[I]Hope all this helps ? sorry for the disjointed response. If you want more info on food & recipes just let me know. I will post on the forum so others can also try.[/I]
[I]Best Wishes on your new Path?[/I]
[I]Namaste,[/I]
[I]Love,[/I]
[I]Fin[/I][/QUOTE]
This is the sattvic diet. This is a man who knows what he is talking about.
It makes for a much easier life. I do not think that I would gain anything by eating meat and I know that I lose a lot as soon as I dip into the rajasic spectrum of foods.
We should really teach a bit about ayurveda and the gunas to students who are learning asanas. People say that in the ‘Western world’ there is no interest in this, but I totally disagree.
When I switched to a sattvic diet … 6 years ago… my asana practise moved up several gears and I was just amazed by it. I found it hard to maintain at times, but insights once gained are never lost.
We should help yoga students by giving them his knowledge, and why confuse the issue by talking about being nice to little fluffy animals and ahimsa. Do we not just want to help people clean up their lives? It is a crime [I]not[/I] to do this.
Great discussion! I am still struggling with this issue and trying to eat less meat. It is hard to change habits that have been built over many years. Eating is connected to social actvities and I don’t want to socally segregate myslef by being militant, but I do want to change, so it comes gradually in each choice I make. This is an exercise in patience for me.
My esoteric studies led me to an interesting view about the karmic effects of the pain caused to animals.
LONG POST PART I
First, we need to ponder the idea that karma exists, and works, as result of divine love and justice. For those, who are not sure about the existence of karma, or maintain it at the level of theoretic possibility, but something what not necessarily applies to their life, other studies are needed, and I am not providing the means for those here.
To meditate on the karma of pain, it is enough that we have a clear conscience. We must agree that we feel aversion towards physical pain, suffering, and the destruction of the physical organism, through dying. But not just aversion, but also sadness. Anyone who is in pain due to illness, or being hurt, wants to escape this state, what we percieve unnatural, to the extent that we also want to prevent the circumstances causing physical pain, illness, and death.
Let’s see the animals. How do we relate to them ? How do we see them ?
Today, there is a widespread image of the animals, what sees them as automatons, very complex “machines”, driven by what we call “instincts”, who belong to other branches of the great tree of life, to what we also belong, as the most powerful branch what has grown stronger than any other. We are the crown of the creation, it was said not long ago, the rulers of this planet, we are the only species of animals who did succed to transcend the state of being determind by our environment. We see ourselves as the conquerors of nature. And as the most powerful amongst the animals we have the right of what we seen in the animal kingdom to happen: we feed on, and destroy the weaker competitors. Yes, even today, the survival of the fittest is a thought very often met. Why do I say all these ? We need to realize, that the causes for how do we treat animals, are much deeper, and much more important that we might think, and the average attitude of benevolence regading animals is too superficial to make a difference. How many of us have little calves, pigs and bunnies in the bedrooms of our children ? Yet we serve the same children, the meat resulting from the killing of these animals. Some people say, to love animals, is good, but we need to eat. So, as an adult, I need to strenghten my heart, and kill the animal, so I can feed my children.
But this is not necessarily so. Today, we know through scientific studies -and only those do not know who are either do not want to know, or never spent a little time thinking honestly, or learning about this - that there is no real need to eat any animal products. Not even eggs, and dairy. Simply, a totally vegan diet is not just a peculiar option, but it is even healthier, more environment friendly, and of course, more animal friendly. But in spite this truth, what if accepted would surley bring the peace with the animal kingdom, we know how the state of our affairs is today.
The opinion about pain is often discarded by saying that plants probably do not like to be eaten, too. And if we eat living beings, than why not eat what we like better ? But this argument is simply untrue. Plants do not have a sentient body. They are not sentient beings. Yes, they are living, but they are determined by their metabolic processes. They do not have, what we humans call senses. Animals do have senses, and the more evolved they are, the more they are close to us. Mammals, warm bloodied animals actually do have all the senses we have. And pain is only present in the sentient body, through the senses, through a nervous system. Plants lack a nervous system, thus, they feel nor pain, neither joy. And here we arrive to an important thing, joy. Animals can feel joy, too.
What animals do not have, compared to us, is our ego. We can say, I am, we have a clear self consciousness, what defines us, as human beings, as opposed to the rest of the world. Let us forget for a bit all the bad things we know about the ego, and just concentrate on this fact, that through this ego are we different from members of the animal kingdom. This does not make animals robots built of flesh, though. A horse does not have an ego, but the horse race, the whole animal group has one. But this ego is not confined in the space delimited by the outer limits of the body of one particular animal. That ego is supersensible, belongs to another world.
In case of us, human beings, this ego is confined in our body. It is still supresensible, belonging to another world, but during our daytime waking consciousness, it dwells in our own physical body, it is united with it. At nighttime, this ego, togheter with another part of our being leaves the sleeping man behind, and returns to these suprasensorial worlds. What remains, is the physical body, and the vital body, what keeps it alive. In this regard, a sleeping human being resembles a plant. Indeed, plants always have a consciousness similar to what we have in dreamless sleep. The argument could be brought, that the sleeping man feels pain … but this is not true. That happnens only when as result to the cause of the pain, the ego and astrel body return into the vital and physical body. Only than pain is feeled. Because of this, when we need to cause pain to a human being, like in a surgery, we put them to sleep. That way, they are spared of the pain what would otherwise torment them.
Now, we arrive again to our subject. You see, the world is complex, but not necessarily that complex that it is incomprehensible. But we need to pay the right attention, to ask the right questions, and to follow our thoughts in many ways, from many angles.
Indeed, if we bring our favorite pet to the veterinary, and it suffers from a disease, or is hurt beyond the possibility of recovery through healing, what is then done ? The animal is put to sleep. We spare them from the agony of death, by putting them to sleep. Without ever having the above reasoning, we do the best we can to spare the animal from suffering. As a sidenote to what I have said about animlas not having egos - pet owners will say, that this is untrue, because their pets can be clearly distinguished from other members of the same race, having personal traits. But here, they miss the truth, what is, that through being the master of that pet, they have applied their egos to that pet’s sentient body, transforming it ! Indeed, their pets bear the marks of an ego, a personality, but those are the mark of their own personality. Thus, the animal recieves something it would not recieve naturally, or it would receive only through the ego of the group soul of that animal. In this, the pet owner becomes a bit an angle like figure for the pet, and the pet becomes a bit human, but only through it’s perishable bodily sheats. It will not bear a personal ego. Why is that important ?
Because reincarnation is only a fact for humans, and it happens through the ego. The ego is the seed, what works through the lower bodily aspects of man, physical, vital, astral (desire or causal body). And the ego, what it transforms in these bodies, it maintains for an eternity. These spiritualized bodies are called manas (astral) buddhi(etheric-vital) and atman (physical) in the eastern tradition. These, when ready, at the end of the current Earth period, will form the spiritual man, free from death, disease, suffering. This is what is called in the western esoteric tradition, the resurrection body. I think I must not say, how the idea of the resurrection of today’s physical body, is a crude and materialist thought (also a selfish, and frightened one - those who are not brave enough to face the idea of total distruction of their physical vehicle often try to find their peace in this thought) Thus, the most important thing for a human being to do, is to face his/her karma the best he/she can, trusting divine justice, trusting divine love what manifests through his own karma (fate), accept this lead, and to work on all aspects of his/her being with the knowledge that his/her work is not in vain. No matter how low do you think you have fallen, no matter how hard your personal trials are, you must trust that you also have the power to face them skillfuly - a term I borrow from the buddhist world-view.
Karma is more wise than us. It is not a system of punishment. Indeed, it is much more wise than human justice, because it is based on love. It never just brings the disaster back on our heads, as we might think. No, it compensates. We have seeen, that animals do lack the ego, the eternal element what reincarnates. Thus, it cannot be expected, that an animal will reincarnate to hurts us back. This idea of getting hurt because we have hurt somone, is totally wrong, and superficial. This is still thinking in terms of the old covenant, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. This is just applying an age old human way of thinking to a notion brought from eastern traditions. Such unconscious, random associations will always lead to erroneus thoughts, like the one above.
LONG POST PART II
Karma rather works in the following way. The person, who made the wrong, will realize it after death, having an unobstructed spiritual sight, through the help and presence of higher beings. There, everything is the opposite like we perceive them here. Thus, that person will feel the pain, suffering caused by his actions, like he/she was the victim, in first person. And this experience will make him/her accept future karmic determinations, what will grant him/her the chance to make up for what he/she has done. Karma is actually, the chance to redeem ourselves. Not through suffering for the sufferings we caused, because this way, the world would be a human prison camp, but through redeeming ourselves through causing joy, for the pain we have caused.
In case of the animals, who do not return, because there is nothing in them to return, a person who has caused pain to animals, could never redeem him/herself. There is nothing he can do apparently. But there is. What happens, that for the pain he has caused he needs to give back the appropriate amount of joy. And how do we provide that joy ? By allowing the supersensible egos of the animal groups, to feel joy on our behalf. And how do that exactly happens ? It happens through having diseases caused by infections. The parasites, viruss, bacteria feel joy when they multiply, and live in our physical organism. Thus, for the pain we cause to animals, we pay with the joy we allow to these parasites. Surely, the end result is pain on our part. But I wanted to show, how these things follow a higher logic, or moral, than we are used to acknowledge.
A few weeks ago I have read an article on the pages of the online magazine, Mother Earth News, about how “animal factories” are related with the increasing apparition of antibiotic resistant germs, viruss and bacteria. Thus, while some might say, what do I care about diseases caused by parasitic infections, we have antibiotics today, the very answer is already given in that article. The wisdom of karma, divine love and justice cannot be fooled.
We must get rid of these animal farms based on greed, based on an uchecked desire to do what we want. Animal freindly farms need to be created, where human beings can build loving relationships with animals, where animals live their lives as the divine plan intended, where killing animals is done respectfully, putting them to sleep. For all these to happen, people need to revise their diets. Let us realize the health benefits, the moral benefits. Let us keep our consumtpion of meat on a level what can be satisfied through the above described means. Let us choose the oragnic meat, and if we can’t afford it, than we should have rice instead. I am positive, that any human being who by his good fate, learns to know these truths, will become a more responsible, more wise representant of our race.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090427/ap_on_he_me/med_swine_flu
These won’t stop until human beings become more … human.
I am currently doing TTC and also get to know more yogi and practitioner during the journey. I found most of them are vegetarian. I do not really fancy meat, but i can not give up fish at this stage. It makes me feel guilty if i am not a vegetarian as i think if I want to be a yogi or teacher , I must first believe or practise the first limbs of yoga - yama.
Is there a must of being a vegetarian as a yogi ?
If you ask this way, no, it is not.
On the other hand, sometimes we hardly can avoid performing actions what leave us with the feeling of quilt. Perfection is an ideal. The realization of our shortcomings is what takes us further. And we must get used to bear the weight of our weaknesses, compared to the lightness of the ideal we follow.
Hubert ,
I guess my yoga journey has just started and perhaps on the way , i will find the answer for myself.
Thanks for sharing
I have been cutting out a lot of meat from my diet, but I too find it hard to completely go vegan. Why? Well I must admit that I enjoy certain meat but it also has a social aspect to it. I would say I have meat or fish at least once a week
Its one of those vices that I could go on never having again but not really miss.
thankz this is really very nice issue discussed and i really gathered lot of informations through this…
[QUOTE=Hubert;17782]LONG POST PART II
In case of the animals, who do not return, because there is nothing in them to return, a person who has caused pain to animals, could never redeem him/herself.
i dont want to divert this thread…maybe i should be starting a new thread, btu the above comment interested me alot. There seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether non human animals re-incarnate or not.
AS i work with stray dogs in india, puppies actually, and most of them die, i do take comfort from the thought that they will re-incarnate. What are people’s opinions on this? animals have souls, right? if thats true then surely they re-incarnate?
This thread has become so interesting and touching. I am gratitude for it and for everyone’s contribution to it.
I wanted to sharethis pop-news article here as it reintroduces some of the obvious points about the known cognitive abilities of non-domesticated, non-human animals, as well as animals’ own [I]ahamkara[/I] (“I” sense, awareness of self and of other-than-self).
As this opinion piece will touch on, modern science is still in its infancy, and is currently quite limited in its ability to fully discern, measure and evaluate the subtleties of non-human animal intelligence. In fact, there is much unknown to us still about our own species regarding our gross physiology, and currently even less is understood and measurable regarding our subtler nature (the 4 subtle[I] koshas)[/I].
Modern science is still developing means to measure and evaluate what all animals, humans included, have been experiencing and living their lives in relationship to. It is Man experiencing aspects of his own aliveness and Self, and then building an outside-himself means to verify what is already known well by him. I think this is one of the most endearing follies of Man, and I certainly understand the drive well and participate in the search as fully as my own means allow. I also try to remember to balance the search inside myself with the search outside myself–context and reflection are everything! Balance in this search is not 50/50, but rather anything that directs me to go inward.
There is so much to still learn, or perhaps it is more simply a matter of remembering. (Simple, but not easy.)
Your own,
Nichole
Nice article. It just underlines what I say: the ego, or sense of individuality is supersensible and not necessarily confined to a single physical organism. That is just projecting a human trait on animals. Animal “intelligence” proves this. If intelligence would be a product of our brain, hornets could not make wonderful hives, from paper they produce, birds could not make nests and you find many wonderful examples in that article. Animals do wondrous things without a sophisticated brain we have. Which does not make them on par with us, though.
Yes, animals have feelings and desires. It’s our insensivity to think that because animals can’t express their feelings or desires in a way intelligible for us, they don’t have them. They can express them, if we listen. Once we do that, it is hard to have that steak, or pork. That, on a certain level of understanding. On a still higher level, it won’t matter anymore.
If we just really payed attention to nature without rationalizing it too soon, we would be better equipped for understanding the miracle of earthly life. This is hard to do in the artificial environment created by our culture. That’s why all of those seeking real wisdom, left for deserted places in a particular moment of their life.
PS. It is one weapon of journalism to spit poison, because we like violence. There is no need to militantly express animal moral superiority. They cannot err, because they are in the “bosom of God”, still. When I say they don’t have egos, you understand that I belittle them. While, I never said they don’t have egos, but they have a group soul as an ego. That is hard to picture because it requires belief in the supersensible. That group soul is in “heaven”, all the time. The soul of a seer is also in “heaven”. What is the difference ? That the animal ego/group soul/spirit has never fully descended into physicality as we did. Thus, it lacked the opportunity for individualisation. The aim of human evolution is this; to aquire the ability to become a fully conscious inhabitant of higher realms, instead of just unconsciously going with the flow. Yes, animals partake all the time of divine love. But they lack freedom. And God wants his/her children to be free.
I wanted to share this NPR.org piece on Jonathan Safran Foer’s book,[I] Eating Animals[/I]. I have not read his book, but I thought this piece was really interesting and would add to our conversation here.
Much love,
Nichole
[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;5642]
It is perfectly fine to be vegetarian (or not) as long as it is in alignment with YOUR dharma and the choice is a mindful, conscious one. I am not fully vegetarian but quite close. It serves the health of my physical body in which my soul temporarily dwells. It is not to serve the sutra as merely being vegetarian does not at all serve the sutra. The sutra is broader and to look at it and overlook intention is avidya itself.[/QUOTE]
Great point of view.
It depends on how it makes you feel. Biologically, we are omnivorous and since we can’t break down cellulose (plant “building blocks”) but WE CAN break down Animal Protein. That means we are made to eat animals. DO it or not its your choice. Medically, protein coming from “animal sources” (meat, eggs, milk) has a much better availability than plant protein and can be found in bigger quantities. As well, animal iron is absorbed 10 times more than plant iron so the daily dosage is smaller. If you can compensate for this, go Vegetarian if you want (unless you’re pregnant, I’d never recomend a vegetarian diet to a pregnant woman).
Take care…