[QUOTE=Trinity;5554]
Jivamukti Yoga (Sharon Gannon & David Life)
From the back cover, “The long-awaited, complete guide to the popular, vigorous method of yoga that is deeply rooted in ancient wisdom and scriptures”. This is a wonderful, well rounded text. Die-hard carnivores beware - Jivanmukti Yoga (soul liberation) adheres to the principle of ahimsa (non-violence) and promotes a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;5556]This is a bit understated as they are so “adherent” they themselves are violent and therefore violate ahimsa in the pursuit of guarding its doors. How ironic.[/QUOTE]
After reading this in an earlier post of book recommendations, I really wanted to see how others felt about this topic. I have to admit that I see this as another example of a group of people taking a word (ahimsa in this case, though the word “patriotic” is another of my examples) to be their own. Where they define other’s actions or thoughts or beliefs as violent if they go against what their group considers non-violent.
This assumed connection of ahimsa and vegetarianism was an issue at a Yoga and Ayurveda school that I attended. It came down to a my-God-is-better-than-your-God type of argument: meaning, no one person’s way can be right for everyone else. And everyone was frustrated with the other side.
My wise and long-practiced Yoga and Ayurveda teachers have said things like these to my classmates and me:
“If you want a spiritual sadhana, don’t eat meat. If you want a physical sadhana (mastering asana) then eat meat.”
“I damaged my own body with my years of vegetarianism.” She now eats fish.
“Ayurveda prescribes chicken broth for certain vata illnesses.”
“Eating the flesh of an animal’s body creates an enormous karmic debt that many people cannot resolve in this lifetime.”
There are plenty more for both sides too.
I would love to hear to hear what others are thinking and feeling about this subject. I actually consider this quite a bit in my daily life.
I’m really a very down to earth kind of person and I look to our physical characteristics to supply some of my answers. In this case, the teeth. We have tearing teeth like predators to consume flesh, and we have grinding teeth to consume grains etc. IMO it would be against nature to deny the gifts we’ve been given. I choose to eat an omnivorious diet and will continue to do so. I’m not sure where I stand on the issue of “karmic debt”. I think that could get us into a whole other realm of responsibility for the world as it is.
I believe each person must choose what is right for themselves and to force YOUR way of living upon another is the ultimate wrong.
I agree. This is because brahmacharya - control of the senses - is easier without those “animal vibrations” or call them hormones if you like a “scientific” approach. This is not superstition … eating meat makes you prone to all sort of desires and pleasures, one with basic awarness must agree this.
If you want a physical sadhana (mastering asana) than eat meat."
Regardless of asana, a well composed and varied vegetarian diet is healthier. But the difference between a vegan and a person who moderatly consumes meat is minimal. Different varieties of meat can be parts of balancing diets, I even read of horse meat recipes for those with lung problems -myth or true ? I don’t know - also cod is an animal, right ? (cod liver oil)
“I damaged my own body with my years of vegetarianism.” She now eats fish.
Lack of understanding of basic nutritional facts and a self imposed restriction of imortant proteins might be the real cause here, and not vegetarianism.
“Ayurveda prescribes chicken broth for certain vata illnesses.”
I don’t know, maybe works maybe not. I like holistic approaches better - and ayurveda is one -, and some sort of meat consumption is part of every culture. Medicine is for everyone, and most people do eat meat. But if you can do without, it is probably better.
“Eating the flesh of an animal’s body creates an enormous karmic debt that many cannot resolve in this lifetime.”
Eating anything might create karmic debt. I can imagine a vegan who likes to eat, accumulates more karmic debt by his complacency in pleasure than an inuit hunter who’s diet is mainly meat based, but who knows how to be moderate.
There are plenty more for both sides too.
I would love to hear to hear what others are thinking and feeling about this subject. I actually consider this quite a bit in my daily life.
Ahimsa = non harm = but usually it is said that in sanskrit this has a positive charge, meaning act for the sake of others, not against it.
The book’s adverising - die hard carnivores beware - is well thought. This book is for those who are vegetarian. It is customary in marketing to spot the target market share, and sell them by identifing with their values. No time and effort is spent in trying to transform people, this is not profitable in the short term.
I don’t count this as bad. This is the world today.
An aware reader will probably see through this and apply the things read in the book through his/her own reasoning/practice.
If someone is really an adept of non-violence (or love for the others), than he/she knows that making a possible disciple face any truth the disciple is not ready to comprehend and thus, accept, injures the disciple, creating in the disciple’s mind a resentment what is hard to overcome, and thus, minimizes the disciple’s chances to advance.
Preaching and showing off how good, elevated and wise we are, it is violation of ahimsa, because it makes less aware people to back off and to misjudge the ideals we speak for. ( this is an error I often commit here, on these boards - but let us not go in there, it would take us far from here )
To eat meat or not to eat ?
When not eating might harm others, than do the lesser bad, and eat.
When eating it might only harm you, don’t do it.
Ahimsa is greater than satya.
Tolerance, caring and compassion is better than being right.
Sometimes we can express compassion by having a meal with someone. Why offend him/her ? You as a yogi are already having a good lifesytle. A little meat won’t kill you.
So, in affairs with others, be full of compassion, and tolerance. In affairs with your own weaknesses, you can be disciplined, and unforgiving … to a point.
I was a vegetarian for six years during the college years. It was good not because of my bodily health, but because I learnt how to think and act as my consciousness dictates, regardless of others.
Now that I am older, I don’t call myself a vegetarian because I am not one, in the sense that sometimes I eat meat. But I’m one in my mind and soul. I only eat meat when I share a meal. I never buy meat. I do not express any joy eating it. This way, even though I dont say I am vegetarian, and I don’t expect my family and friends to treat me like one, without words I managed achive more than with a militant attitude. This way, my family changed a lot, slowly, in years, so we have fish or chicken instead of the customary pork for holidays, they buy less meat, they eat more fruits and vegetables alltogheter, and they realise it is better, without even talking about it.
As I’ve already been included in the thread do I need to add?
Dogma is dogma. Defining the phrase makes no difference when it is used for dogmatic purpose. It matters not if ahimsa means “chair” whent he position is so rooted in “not chair”.
One clarification however for other readers beofre this thread grows. Brahmacharya is not control of the senses actually. It is wise use of sexual energy. Brahma (creative force, creation) and Acharya (sage or wise) as in yogacharya B.K.S. Iyengar.
One of the issues with the sutras, like several other texts of note, is that it can be interpreted in many different ways.
Dear friends Yoga is not asana and convenience, if you are doing Yoga, you have to adopt it in whole.Yoga is based on 8 yam and Niyams, Ahinsa/ Non violence is one among them.The sincere seeks of God and followers of veda and yoga do not eat non veg as it contradicts this.First life is given by god to every living creatire including human beings. When we can not give life we do not have a right to snatch it too.Every body wants to live , put yourself in the place of animal getting slaughtered, no body wants to die, so the same is true for animals too.Just they can not express to us in our manner.Due to there bad karmas they are given animal body.But when they must have finished there karmic result they will be upgraded to human body for there jouney upwards.The laws of nature are same for every soul. Soul assumes the shape in the body in which it takes birth.This is proven by ancient seers and mantra drishta rishis.So vegetarianism is better.As per vedas too god has provided man vegetables to eat.
If you not abide by this it is your wish.People may try to support this with intelligent arguments. But i would say they are still under the veil of maya, and god is not realised by such people, he wants his pupil to see god in every thing show compassion and mercy to all.Law of karma is applicable to every soul whether taken birth in animal body or human body, irrespective of caste , creed and religion.This is an eternal law
Hmmmm. Well how to craft this in a yogic framework?
• Classically there are ten yama and niyama. However there are actually more than ten.
• It is presumptuous to assume we know the consciousnss of animals when we do not know the consciousness of our self.
• snatching life is an empty argument. The soul does not die, assuming you are following the concept of reincarnation. Leaving the physical body is no more a violation than entering it.
• there is very little debate that for many people vegetarianism is healthier. It is not true for all.
Now on to the meat and potatoes of this…
It is perfectly fine to be vegetarian (or not) as long as it is in alignment with YOUR dharma and the choice is a mindful, conscious one. I am not fully vegetarian but quite close. It serves the health of my physical body in which my soul temporarily dwells. It is not to serve the sutra as merely being vegetarian does not at all serve the sutra. The sutra is broader and to look at it and overlook intention is avidya itself.
So that we may discuss it fully, BUT not use it as dogma to defend positions (and thus make it religion, which yoga is not)…
It is book two, sutra 30:
Ahimsa satyasteya brahmacaryaparigraha yamah
Non-violence, truthfulness, non-stealing, continence, non-greed, make up Yama.
Ahimsa is “not causing pain”. Swami Satchidananda himself says that other authors define it as non-killing but that “himsa” is pain and not “killing”. Is not Arjuna faced with this very conundrum; to kill or not to kill, how and with what purpose and intention? And how is he counseled by Krishna?
The sutras are clear that ahimsa is to be carried out with no excuse and for all time. It is the sloppy, self-serving definition of ahimsa that I take issue with. When the sutras are waved as the Bible is waved we’ve got a real problem going on.
If one wants to be a vegetarian that is fine but what yogi has the right to do so and wave the flag of ahimsa at others who do not? Just as it is possible to eat meat and embody ahimsa so to is it possible to be a vegetarian and embody himsa. How dare someone speak for the Divine. You may not aspire unless you renounce asana and practice only meditation. This is archaic and defies the very forward progress for which yoga is intended to serve mankind.
Do not fret (but do consider your choices), ahimsa is available to all, not just to vegetarians. Intention, intention, intention. If this were not so then every time you slice an apple you would be violating ahimsa. It is the intention behind the action, not the action itself.
This is an issue that I have been back and forth on for quite some time now, and today when I passed the meat section in the grocery store I began to have qualms with putting any of it in my basket. I do things like “vegan days” where I don’t eat any animal products except for a little organic half and half in the ol cup of coffee, and now that I have started doing yoga again something in me wanted to see if I could cut animal products down to a minimum.
I decided I would just gradually decrease the amount of animal products I ate. I tried going completely vegan before with not-excellent results. I think a lot of people have personal experience with this in yoga, and so I was wondering if anyone had tips for getting sufficient nutrients with non-animal products.
A little more background, I’ve tried all kinds of combinations of vegan foods, and in general too much soy and too many nuts seem to not agree with me. Things like “creamed” spinach and sauteed vegetables bother me less.
Also anyone have any really killer (or not so killer, hehe) vegan recipes they want to share??
It took me a gradual 10 years to become a vegetarian. I still do eat cheese and eggs (these days most of them are unfertilised). I have the same problem that soy do not agree with me and too much nuts just made me put on some weight.
Basically your body needs about 60-80 grams of protein a day, now that is not too much and if you check carefully you can easily make that up in your diet. The combination of rice and lentils is a potent and powerful protein meal - I once read that 200g of this mixture has more useable protein than 25g of lamb chop.
Due to my work, my biggest problem was getting sufficient B-vitamins in. This I take every two weeks in the form of a B-complex and B-12 injection. Othewise I enjoy good health, due to a family history of high cholestrol, my cholestrol levels is now normal and I generally feel great with much more energy since going fully vegetarian about 5 years ago.
Good luck and vegetarianism is all about logic and listening to your body. On recipes, there are wonderful books available with excellent recipes. Your nearest bookstore should have them in the cooking section.
Thanks, 10 years?? wow. A friend of mine went cold turkey and she stayed athletic so I guess she did okay. But it is good to know I am not the only one who’ll have to do this gradually. I come from a slovak family so food growing up consisted of a lot of ground beef, sausage, and chicken. Probably had some impact. (I manage to resist a burger at a steakhouse today and go for the salad bar! I felt accomplished, maybe too accomplished considering that was a no brainer for me at one point!)
I haven’t done a whole lot with lentils… ever. That’s something I’ll have to look into. Add it to the meal rotation.
Hi!
I gradually became a vegetarian. When I met my (now) husband 8 years ago he was Vegan.
He never pushed me to change my eating lifestyle. Over time for my own personal reasons I felt a strong sense of change and thought I should give it a try.
It took time. I gradually decreased my meat intake and I started to feel amazing.
It wasn’t easy being a southern girl raised on meant and startches!
But, I am much much happier with myself and my decision.
I love Vegan / Vegetarian Recipes and More for the Vegan Diet and Lifestyle
That is how I started to learn to cook for my husband. It is also helped me with my grocery bill! I was making 2 meals each time I cooked. One for my husband and one for myself when I ate meat. So all around it worked for us.
The only advice I can give other than go gradual is listen to your body.
My body couldn’t process meat, I had so many digestive issues. Dr.'s were trying to put me on pills for IBS before even discussing my diet.
So that was another reason I thought…Why not try it!
What is interesting for me about being a vegetarian, is that I generally feel good, most of my illness (which was a result of all the antibiotics and other toxins in meat, which they feed the animals to keep them so called healthier and to grow them faster) vanished. My emotions is much more stable and my spastic colon and high cholestrol disappeared. In the mean time I try to go to our farmers market every Saturday, there I can buy healthy organically grown veggies, milk and cheese which was produced from happy and organically fed animals. These farmers are all certified organic farmers. Why must we eat food that was flown in from Kenia or Zambia or Zimbabwe or even Europe if we can find good and fresh produce on our doorsteps. I also try to cultivate my own veggies, with some amazing results.
Anyway, being a vegetarian has been so far a very interesting journey for me and I enjoy every moment of it.
I feel much better. I do not have the digestive issues I had before and my practice shows!
I don’t throw my views of vegetarian lifestyle out to others…unless they are curious. You have to do what fits your lifestyle.
I just don’t condone killing of animals and my body agrees.
Vegetarianism naturally results directly from one of the Yamas of Ashtanga Yoga of Patanjali - Ahimsa. Anything that is the result of violence is forbidden. Also nature did not intend humans to eat meat because otherwise we would have had canine teeth like all carnivores (the two sharp incisors that tigers, lions, dogs etc. have).
But there are levels of vegetarianism
Avoidance of any food that is the result of KILLING of an animal - basically means not eating meat or fish but can eat all kinds of veggies and fruits
This is the most common meaning of vegetarianism
Avoidance of any food that is the result of KILLING of an animal OR plant - basically means eat only fruits and veggies that do not result in destruction of the plant
Practiced by many saints. They will not eat potatoes or carrots for example because the whole plant is detroyed in the process of cultivation. They will eat, for example, tomatoes which are plucked from the plant without destroying the plant
Avoidance of any food that is the result of any kind of VIOLENCE on an animal or plant - basically means eat only fruits and veggies that have FALLEN from the plant
Many sadhus in the Himalayas practice this level of vegetarianism. When a mango fruit falls it is going to decay anyway. They will then eat the pulp and dispose the seed into nature to allow nature to deal with it as it may. The Jain sadhus practice an even more strict version of vegetarianism - they always wear a mask over their mouth to avoid inadvertently swallowing insects.
What should a non-vegetarian do? My humble answer is that we humans have many habits that we cannot easily break. Meat eating is one of them. People who are born vegetarians (like me) can easily preach vegetarianism but, on the other hand, I may not be able to give up drinking or pizza. In my opinion, the approach of a yoga practitioner who eats meat should be one of acceptance of this habit as a reality and ask God for his forgiveness.
There are several factors what increase health and longevity, diet is just one of them.
Good social skills are just as important, if not more important than this, also a positive attitude towards life helps a lot.
Being a vegetarian does not automatically mean one is healthier or a better person. This does not discard vegetarianism, though, just that the picture is not black and white as we usually like to percieve things.
I can imagine a meat containing diet that is healthier than a vegan one what allows alcohol or refined foods.
Dietary restrains are important preparing and during pranyama practice when the nadis are purified. Once pranayama is mastered, any food will be tolerable, and the practicant will resist even poisonous substances ! (it is good to be a yogi, isn’t it ? )
But I do not want to minimize the role of a good diet. It is hard to keep one, as in cities, refined foods are cheap an accessible. A good meal requires fresh, unrefined, unprepared cereals, vegetables, fruits what are harder to acquire and more expensive.
For a vegan, I’d think that wheat, rice, corn, oat, rye, barley, boiled in water, with sea salt, green spices and cold pressed olive oil are great meals. Few know, but wheat do has all the nutrients (aminoacids, too) we need, that’s why it was possible for saints to live only on bread and water. Barley was a the basic food of greek olimpikons and roman gladiators. Workhorses were given rye, a cereal very rich in good fats, around 6 %.
Another type of food is beans and peas. Yellow peas are very high in proteins, as are lentils. Eat these if you must performe heavy physical activities.
And of course, there are vegetables as salads of all kinds, what will provide all vitamines, minerals, enzymes both dicovered and yet undiscovered. Fruits too.
Nuts and seeds are another choice, but these, because of their richness in nutrients should be used in measured quantities. Almonds are richest in proteins, hazelnuts are highest in monounsaturated fats. Walnuts are rich in omega-3 fats, pumpkin seeds are also good sources of protein (around 30 % of their weight), sunflower kernels are great source of vitamin E.
Too bad most buyable nuts are roasted, transforming part of their fatty acids in TRANS fats, what are even worse tha saturated fats of animal origin.
Heh, since I started this thread I figued I had better check in on it!
I have been doing… well… decent on my veggie goal. Being close to a vegan has always been something of a subconscious goal for me. I’m really ocd about what I put in my body when I can manage it (I absolutely do not touch hydrogenated oils or refined sugars! period) but I have my weaknesses, such as the can of beanie weenies at an all nighter. Anyway I am still working on it.
I found an excellent way to cook steel cut oats and flaxseeds with just a touch of salt, cinnamon, and maple syrup to make a really filling meal. I’ve been messing around with various dishes and I found some winners. I figured I’d still eat cruelty-free eggs (four bucks a dozen but good protein).
I also, after going vegan for the first time, had to realize there were just more important things than what you put in your mouth to get along in this world and help this world get along. I’ve met so many pretentious as… I mean, jerks… (sorry grandma) that thought their almighty way was God’s gift to the world and then did some pretty shady stuff in their spare time, so I’m past that. At this point I’m looking at this more like a puzzle. And I figured I’d learn a lot while I am at it.
Umm… I do want to make some comments regarding a previous post in this thread. “Nature” does not dictate what humans should do. Nature IS what humans DO. Nature is not the Hebrew god telling us not to eat pork (or in this case meat) nature is just whatever happens, and it just happens that there are discernable patterns and rhythms to it that render it studyable and understandable. Sorry if I can come across as abrasive but it just really irks me when humans dictate what nature tells humans to do. Hunter-gatherers are a part of our natural history and it is pretty silly to deny it. And I know that humans don’t have a problem eating meat because I have eaten enough of it in my lifetime! AND I can forgive MYSELF, thank you.
This whole post about vegetarianism reminds me of an incident years ago. Just after I cut all meat from my diet and made the decision to go fully vegetarian, I was invited to a lunch with a few other yogis to an old lady who used to do yoga and has great wisdom. Unfortunately this old lady forgot that most of us are vegetarian and served a beautiful chicken pie with some greens on the side. So there I sat and I didn’t know what to do now as I didn’t want to refuse the food and offend my host. One of the other and older yogis, who saw my predicament laughed and asked me: “So Willie, what are you going to be now, the better vegetarian or the better yogi?”
If it is done for health … it is just another diet.
If it is done because you love animals, and see them as your older brothers, beings like you, perhaps less fortunate, than it is unacceptable to kill them so you can eat their flesh.
Those who mention hunter gatherers, and evolutionary theories, forget that hunters had great respect for the animal they hunted, and they usually asked for forgivness. They knew, that killing one animal is not a sin as big one as killing a human, because animals have a group soul. Killing a member does not deny this soul to gain experience or to evolve. So it is a sin forgivebale, especially if you are in need, if you do not prevent the prpagation and natural ways of that species.
The more evolved a being the greater the sin of killing it is. Mammals should not be eaten at all.
I heard of succesfull transplant of a pig heart into a human. How to eat pork after this ? It is like eating human flesh.
Yes, traditions, and social circumstances make this acceptable.
But in fact this is not acceptable. It is a very bad habit we must shake off.
I invite everyone to watch “meet your meat” on youtube. Even if there can be arguments that not all farms are like those in the video, once you see how they suffer, you realize, they are warm blooded beings with eyes, lungs, vocal cords, muscles, capable of fear, agony, and suffering just as we are.
This is knowledge. This is seeing the world really.
We so many times run from it, we have medicine, central heating, we have butchers so we do not have blood on our hands.
When you buy meat products you kill. The suffering and horror is hidden behind the image of a joyous butcher boy, who hands that juciy sausage over to you. He is health himself. You think, meat gives strenght. And it might provide strenght indeed … but I think the price we pay is too high, and the sad thing is we do not realize it.
Thank you, Hubert, that was very very well put. I enjoy reading your posts more and more.
The only thing I disagree on is the hunter-gatherer societies asking forgiveness for their kills. I haven’t read anything on this and I thought that it was more of a Judeo-Christian tradition to ask forgiveness, and also to ask for the animals’ assent before they killed it. The hunter-gatherers had great respect for what they kill, though, and from what I have read had ceremonies to honor and release the spirit of the animal (or four-legged… they didn’t make the same human-animal distinction we do today it was just two-leggeds and four-leggeds, at least in the Lakota literature). PLEASE, please correct me if I am wrong.
I’ve been on both sides of the “well what’s wrong with western culture anyway?” argument. (the one that addresses whether or not we should be ashamed for our cultures’ wiping out of the Indians, which is a pretty stupid question if you ask me, the answer is yes, and we should also be ashamed at everything else on the planet we are destroying! I don’t think anyone should be called a true historian if they don’t feel pangs of -something- I don’t care if it is shame, sadness, what have you when they talk about things like this, but I digress…) Basically the people who ask this question are either trying to counter the pacifist Indian society argument (the one that states that tribal warfare was just ceremonial and paints a picture of a Native American utopia), or trying to justify our historical faults for what we have made out of it… (hooray corporatism! and a lower murder rate in our modern society, of course, which of course would not have happened if we had not wiped out the “savages” [sarcasm])
I am starting a new paragraph because I think I digressed too much in that last one! Anyway, yes, we do have MUCH to learn about humility and being thankful for this world we live on, and working within nature rather than trying to conquer it, because we’re not really a part of the web of life still, right? (again sarcasm) For some reason the culture we come from has a problem with understanding this, perhaps because it has been way too long since our ancestors had to survive off the land. Well, with global warming on the rise and the amazon rainforest estimated at 50 years left (WAKE UP IDIOTS IN POWER) it still looks like survivalism to me!!
And, again, sorry if I get abrasive sounding when I talk about stuff like this, but it really does make me furious. I wish I could do more about it… but I really don’t know how at this point… I need to save up money first.
