An irony within vegetarianism - need advice!

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

The first limb of yoga, Yama, states that Ahimsa (or non-violence) is the most important attitude for bringing about a right relationship with the world and preventing negative energies from entering into us.

This is an excerpt from the book, Ayurveda and the Mind. Now to give a little background, I’ve been a vegetarian for a few weeks now and I am absolutely loving it! There is only one problem, my mother doesn’t support it whatsoever and thinks there is absolutely no way to remain in healthy condition when you’ve eliminated meat from your diet. I obviously for my own reasons disagree. Today, she brought up her issues with my diet and stated that she “doesn’t understanding my reasoning because the vegetables that I get from the grocery store were grown on land that involved tilling which inevitably kills insects and other creatures in the ground.” So in this case, is there a difference between the two (killing of livestock for meat and killing of insects)? Is the karma the same? Is the motivation the same? And is there a possible way to avoid the killing of insects during the process of agriculture?
I’m looking forward to hearing your replies!
Namaste.

#2

Hello,

Welcome to the forum and congratulations for your wise election!

Tell your carnivorous momma that a much bigger amount of vegetable products are needed for feeding the cattle she eats. So eating meat is not only morally wrong but economically a waste. Imagine how many insects are “killed” for feeding a cow instead of feeding a human…

A cow eats between 2.5% and 4.5% of her body weight daily. She is slaughtered when she’s 14 or 16 months old. So, as you can see, a huge amount of food has been given to her to produce around 200Kgs of meat.

And now a personal opinion: Killing a mammal, whose feelings, basic thoughts and consciousness are not far from ours, is not the same as killing an insect. In the same way it is a bigger “sin” killing a human than killing any other mammal. Humans live longer, are more aware, and have the “mission” of spiritually evolving.

Regards

#3

The aim is to be as least violent as possible.

Some vegetarians drink milk, some go further and eliminate all animal products. There are some sects which will only consume what has fallen from trees.

What constitutes being as least violent as possible and maintenance of good health, is subject to personal interpretation. The diet advocated by the Yogis is an excellent balance between the two.

#4

Perhaps violence is more a state of consciousness than eating for continued existence, insects eating insects, fish eating fish is not an act of violence. Waste creates consequences, cause and effect?mindfulness.

#5

Thank you for the kind advice everyone :slight_smile:
I guess I can admit I was looking a bit too deeply into the subject. It’s hard when you have a mother that’s always finding ways to contradict your personal decisions. And as we all know, indoor hydroponic systems are also an option when harvesting!!

#6

dharma,

“There is only one problem, my mother doesn’t support it whatsoever and thinks there is absolutely no way to remain in healthy condition when you’ve eliminated meat from your diet.”

That is what most people have assumed. Those who have been saying this are simply using it as an excuse to continue eating meat. And it is almost absurd how one is
willing to create so much unecessary suffering simply for the sake of taste. Such a thing could have only been possible if man has remained in a deep sleep, the same sleep which has been destroying both himself and almost every other life on this planet.

The fact is that everything that your system requires for it’s health is there in abundance, meat is not some kind of ultimate source of nutrition. In fact, in comparison to other foods, meat is very non-nutritious - filled with all kinds of toxins, some of which created a number of diseases, particularly diseases of the heart. But there is some indirect truth in those who have been saying that it is not possible to have a healthy diet without meat. It is not because it is true, it is just that if one is really serious about maintaining a healthy diet without meat - then one will need to do a bit of research and educate oneself on what is needed to provide your system needs. Because most people do not wish to make an effort to do such a thing, most would rather remain comfortable with things as they are.

“So in this case, is there a difference between the two (killing of livestock for meat and killing of insects)?”

There is a tremendous difference. First, it should be understood that different forms of life function in different states of consciousness. The consciousness of a plant is very different than that of a fish, that of a fish is different than that of a fly, that of a fly is different than that of an ant, that of an ant is different than that of a dog, that of a dog is different than that of a human being. Depending on the level of sophistication of an organism, they will be more or less sensitive and awake. The level of wakefulness in the animals which are being killed in the factories is much more so than that of an insect, and that is why the kind of suffering that they experience is far more overwhelming. What Hitler has done to the Jews in the concentration camps is nothing in comparison to the kind of activities that go on in the animal factories day by day, where animals will be killed in what is basically a slow and agonizing torture. And one is contributing to the supply and demand of such torture everytime one purchases meat in the marketplace.

The fact is that it is simply unecessary to create so much suffering when you already have developed enough science and technology to live well without the need for eating meat, it is just a luxury. I can understand if perhaps you are stranded in the middle of a forest, without any possibility of growing agriculture, and you have to kill other animals for your survival - that is an entirely different matter. Or even if you can grow agriculture, anyway you may have to kill other animals as protection against those who may attack you. That is different. But in this kind of society, where man’s material comforts have reached a peak like they never have before, to continue eating meat just for the sake of taste is simply barbaric, it reflects that man himself is still as animalistic as he has been for centuries. If one has awakened a compassionate intelligence, it would have been impossible to continue such a thing.

#7

“Perhaps violence is more a state of consciousness than eating for continued existence, insects eating insects, fish eating fish is not an act of violence. Waste creates consequences, cause and effect…mindfulness.”

It is possible for one to eat meat and remain non-violent, just as it was possible for a man like Hitler to be a vegetarian and remain violent. But the fact is that even if it is not your intention to create suffering through eating meat, that is the consequence in the kind of society in which one lives. Just to pay money for it, and that is enough to put an animal’s final days into an overwhelming nightmare. It is a simple cause and effect phenomenon, your intentions are irrelevant. Even if, without being compassionate, one becomes a vegetarian - that in itself is enough to avoid enormous unecessary suffering. The problem is that as long as man continues living with this idea that he is superior to other forms of life on this planet, that the whole existence is there for his service, then he is going to continue living as a possessive animal, the same possessiveness which is going to lead to his own extinction sooner or later.

#8

Amir,
I really appreciate your conclusive insights to my questions. They have helped me to understand the worries of the possible “ironies” in my diet. But it seems that the differences are tremendous between karma, motive, and diets in general.
Thank you very much.
Namaste.
:slight_smile:

#9

[QUOTE=dharmakarma;62059]This is an excerpt from the book, Ayurveda and the Mind. Now to give a little background, I’ve been a vegetarian for a few weeks now and I am absolutely loving it! There is only one problem, my mother doesn’t support it whatsoever and thinks there is absolutely no way to remain in healthy condition when you’ve eliminated meat from your diet. I obviously for my own reasons disagree. Today, she brought up her issues with my diet and stated that she “doesn’t understanding my reasoning because the vegetables that I get from the grocery store were grown on land that involved tilling which inevitably kills insects and other creatures in the ground.” So in this case, is there a difference between the two (killing of livestock for meat and killing of insects)? Is the karma the same? Is the motivation the same? And is there a possible way to avoid the killing of insects during the process of agriculture?
I’m looking forward to hearing your replies!
Namaste.[/QUOTE]

I went vegetarian over 30 years ago when I was 14. I’ve also been a vegan for over 15 years. I’m the only one in my family without a cardiovascular issue. I’m the only in my family who does not wear glasses or contacts. I’m the only person I know of among my friends ( all ages ) who doesn’t take any kind of prescription. I don’t need to. I weigh about what I did in high school. I often get mistaken for being younger and I feel great. Aside from sports injuries I haven’t really had any health issues.

Your mother is right, animals do die, even in the production of vegan food crops. However, as we all know and as your mother would tell you if she didn’t have an agenda, perfection is rare in this life and one of the biggest mistakes we can make is giving up something that does good because it isn’t perfect.

Being a vegan or a vegetarian dramatically reduces the number of deaths in food production, so much so, it is totally worth it.

This link will take you to a blog post showing you the “deaths per calorie” for common food choices. For example, to produce 1 million calories from chicken, 251 beings must die. To produce 1 million calories from grain only 1.6 beings have to die

beforewisdom.com/blog/veganism/animal-deaths-per-calorie

#10

Wonderful! I will definitely be taking a look at the link now. Thank you very much for your reply, beforewisdom.
I can say with certainty that my mother has an agenda out of concern for the health of her daughter. She believes I am not capable of finding the “correct” research. Although, I have done plenty of research and just recently ordered a book on staying healthy in the process of transition from a carnivorous diet to a vegetarian diet. It’s going wonderful and I have now been a vegetarian for 6 weeks. I feel better than ever, my skin is very clear. I am not producing an excess oils from the inside. After my meals, I feel quite full but still full of energy! I am more contemplative before I speak and much more focused. There have been many tremendous differences from the inside out that I can FEEL. I don’t need test results to tell me how I’ve improved. I know I’ve improved. My intuition has told me so.
:slight_smile:

#11

Here is a SHORT post I put on my blog about where to find reliable information about plant based diets ( lots of BS out there ):

Here is a listing of the better vegan recipe sites on the web:

As far as going vegetarian goes, don’t use milk products as a replacement for meat. Cows milk has very little iron it, so people who just swap out meat for milk sometimes get anemia.

Eat loads of legumes, green vegetables and fruit and you should be fine.

#12

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;62104]The problem is that as long as man continues living with this idea that he is superior to other forms of life on this planet, that the whole existence is there for his service, then he is going to continue living as a possessive animal, the same possessiveness which is going to lead to his own extinction sooner or later.[/QUOTE]

You make good sense as always Amir, I eat fresh kill from my property venison & turkey, it?s done as painlessly as possible, perhaps I?m rationalizing but there are more deer in Pennsylvania now then when William Penn lived, since man chopped down the woods and now cultivates fields, deer are grazing animals I was tired of seeing them wasted on the side of the road. I?m from an Irish background my liver is such that I have high bilirubin and low iron and other essentials that only meat can sustain adequate energy levels, I am extremely appreciative the resources the universe has provided me and try the best of my abilities to respect and not waste. I have tried several times in my life to go vegetarian with the help of experts; it does not work for me?

#13

Ray, : )

“I have tried several times in my life to go vegetarian with the help of experts; it does not work for me?”

Before we talk some more about it, we should be clear that ones choice of food has very little to do with ones state of being. Even for yogis who have remained vegetarian their whole life, many of them are inwardly as violent and aggressive. That can become very easy when you are part of a tradition which has emphasized control. This attachment to the idea of control has been one of the main reasons why for many practitioners - rather than yoga becoming a means towards ones enlightenment, has become just a way to re-enforce ones ego, and make one even more arrogant. This can be seen with those traditions who have entertained themselves with developing siddhis, the idea that a man can become a God, or particularly with Hatha Yogis who have wanted to create a divine body of light so that their ego can have a vehicle which survives death. Whether these things are possible or not, is irrelevant - but just the constant obsession with such things is enough to strengthen ones ego.

Vegetarianism has been used in the same way for many people who have tried to be vegetarian because they think that somehow it is a more “spiritual” way of being. But - if we are to talk about the possibility of whether a human being can live as a vegetarian, then we will have to look into it. You have said that you have tried several times before in your life to be vegetarian and it has not worked. The fact is that both in the East and West for thousands of years, many human beings have lived entirely off a vegetarian diet without any problem. Do you think that it is because somehow their body has something special which yours does not ? If it has not worked, it is simply because you were not doing something right.

#14

this is more on nutrition side of the vegetarian diet… another thread on the forum http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f34/we-do-not-need-to-eat-meat-to-build-protein-8167.html

#15

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;62177]Do you think that it is because somehow their body has something special which yours does not ? If it has not worked, it is simply because you were not doing something right.[/QUOTE]

My study guide and practice is Raja-Yoga, Advaita and select methodology from Buddhism as it pertains to realism in Truth through direct experience…openness to experiment, I tried vegetarianism with no intentions in mind other then trial and error as to how it might affect mind, body, and practice. Each time the pattern was consistent, first my body became weak/lethargic then mental focus diminished, memory, reasoning abilities and finally spirit became dim, occurring gradually over a period of week to months. Realizing my attempts at self education on the subject may be flawed I sought advice of those who experienced benefits from vegetarianism. All subsequent attempts proved the same, finally blood test showed Gilbert’s syndrome, elevated bilirubin, common in Irish hereditary, there were complex lengthy explanations as to why hereditary syndromes or compromised livers benefit from nutrients found in meat, at the time I was told many Buddhist monks eat meat with other types of liver abnormality’s, viruses etc., at that point I wasted no further energy and choose to focus on better investments, discard everything that weakens you. I would have no objection to trying other methods of dietary change that exclude meat and would be interested in learning about them but suspect it has little to do with the spiritual +/-.

#16

Ray_Killeen - I have patients with Gilberts that have been vegetarians for years without low energy or other health problems. It may be that the vegetarian diet you chose didn’t adequately cover all nutrients. Then again, it doesn’t have to be the Gilberts. We are all made a little differently and it may be so that your body doesn’t adapt well to a vegetarian diet because of metabolic differences in enzymes, etc. And I understand the venison. On my farm, too, those cute little creatures are eating everything because we’ve taken away their natural predators. Wild game is much healthier and ecologically friendly than store-bought, industry raised domesticated animals.

Dharmakarma - Congratulations on your choice to go veggie! As a medical doctor, I can say unequivocally that a vegetarian diet, even a well planned vegan diet, is healthy. Here’s a link to the American Dietetic Association’s position paper.
The ADA is a CONSERVATIVE watchdog group not interested in propagating ideology. On the page to which the above link goes, there is a pdf link. Print it out and give it to your mom. Maybe she’ll go veggie then, too!

#17

[QUOTE=theYogadr.;62237]Then again, it doesn’t have to be the Gilberts. We are all made a little differently and it may be so that your body doesn’t adapt well to a vegetarian diet because of metabolic differences in enzymes, etc.[/QUOTE]

Yes I wouldn?t doubt it?s related to my sensitivity to dairy, wheat, corn, environmental allergies, etc., elimination and trial/error diets made well where other methods failed.

#18

Vegetarian diet is suitable for everyone, otherwise the yogis would not have recommended it.

#19

[QUOTE=Terence;62245]Vegetarian diet is suitable for everyone, otherwise the yogis would not have recommended it.[/QUOTE]

This is a bold statement one makes since unconditional beliefs and blind faith in acceptance of recommendations are quite the opposite of the yogic sciences.

#20

I believe that our biology is based on the consumption of protein sources from beyond vegetable matter otherwise we would not have canine teeth. Also the design of our molars are the same as animals that are purely carnivores for tearing masticating meat. Most all herbivores have flat molars for grinding grass or grains which is not what we are equipped with. Since we do posses one of the largest brains in the animal kingdom we have the ability to make choices about the sources of nutriment that we intake, wise or unwise. I know that different body types respond to different food sources differently so to make flat declarations that all sources of nutrition should come from vegetable matter in not historically accurate, but really a matter of personal preference or needs. I say that as enlightened individuals that we allow those that wish to consume animal protean continue to do so as a matter of personal preference and not get degrade ourselves with matters that are not our own. What happens to them as a result of their choices are their own responsibility. To allow oneself to believe that an individual choice is superior to another choice is not the path to enlightenment.

JMTCW,
bondo