An irony within vegetarianism - need advice!

[QUOTE=Chitta Control;65803]we don’t have canine teeth, at least not like a tiger or lion do. Because [I]one pair of teeth[/I] superficially resembles the shape of true canine teeth doesn’t make us carnivores. Our teeth are almost exclusively uniformly blunt and dull, b/c 2% of our teeth have a somewhat pointed look to them doesn’t qualify for meat eating.

and what about intestine length? all true carnivores have very short intestine length so as to eliminate animal flesh quickly due to the rotting process. Ours are not. We have different bacteria in our intestines and they are designed for foods that give up nutrients slowly.

if you further would like to talk biology then why don’t we have retractable claws like many carnivores?

carnivores jaws move up and down to rip large chunks of flesh to gulp down but not for chewing, vegetarian animals all have jaws that allow for slight lateral movement , thus facilitating the chewing process. We have such a jaw. And our saliva contains the ferment ptyalin which aids in pre-digestion, carnivores lack this.

Mammalian carnivores don’t sweat thru their skin but pant, vegetarian animals all sweat. Do you sweat?

Carnivores lap water with their tongues, vegetarian animals suck up water with their lips pursed.

Hydrochloric acid - carnivores secrete 10x’s as much as we do, this helps to break down bones in the digestive tract.

Kidneys - carnivores kidneys can convert uric acid into allantoin , humans and apes cannot. Uric acid is a poison to us, it leads to gout, arthritis, rheumatism and fibrositis.

if it’s so natural to eat meat why cook it to disguise it? why not just eat things raw?

at best you could say, looking at our biology, that we are in between the grass and meat eaters, pretty much like all the great apes and monkeys, in between but certainly not designed to eat copious amounts of meat, certainly not like we’ve been programmed to by corporate media.

the strongest animals on the planet are all herbavors. Elephants, Oxen, the like. Gorillas and moneys are 99% similar to us but many times stronger.

protein is not built in the body from eating protein but from the amino acids in food. Even if you eat animal protein it first must be broken down into amino acids. The real measure of a food should be it’s AA composition, not it’s protein component.

Plants synthesize amino acids from air, earth, water, but animals, including us, need plant protein – either directly by eating plants, or by eating an animal that’s eaten a plant. There are no “essential” amino acids in flesh that the animal did not derive from plants, and that humans cannot also derive from plants. This is why the elephant has all the muscle it needs, it builds it from the amino acids they get from plants.

this is why carnivores generally don’t eat other carnivores.

throw in the fact that protein may be the single most overrated part of any Americans diet, in terms of quantity needed, where it can come from, harmful effects of too much (gout, uric acid build up, kidney problems) and you could at best argue for small infrequent servings (a serving of mean is what fits into the palm or your hand or the size of a deck of cards) of meat.[/QUOTe]

Bravo…who can argue with this???

[QUOTE=kareng;65855]Bravo…who can argue with this???[/QUOTE]

It wasn’t said in the quote but there is definitely one thing pointing to meat being part of our diet. Or at least something from the animal kingdom. We need B12 and it simply isn’t found in a completely plants based diet.

I say this as a vegan. I see no problem with eating synthetic B12 as a supplement.

In a different world maybe I’d argue for some other kind of diet and way of living but we’re living here and now and in this society I see that the vegan diet is a solution to many huge problems.

[QUOTE=Terje;65852]

Eggs - if we were talking about taking the unfertilized eggs from your own hen, then maybe it would be ok. The egg industry however is hell on earth and while I’ve had the same standpoint as you have now there’s no way I’m going back to eating eggs under the current conditions. [B]These animals are tortured to death, it’s not worth it. [/B]
[/QUOTE]
The eggs I buy are coming from hens roaming on a farm outside… they have quite a nice life, and definitely don’t get ‘tortured to death’.

[QUOTE=Terje;65852]The fish you buy is in more or less 100% of the cases an example of animal torture and environmental destruction. [B]The fish industry is quickly destroying our oceans.[/B][/QUOTE]

Nah, I buy sustainibly sourced fish off the coast of Cornwall.

The reason why I would like to give vegan (ex-eggs) a go, is that the process of killing fish is making me feeling guilty.

[QUOTE=Terje;65852]While it may be healthy it’s not impossible to get some of those oils, if not all of them, from plants.[/QUOTE]
Could you give some examples, as I would like to give it a go for some weeks and see how I will feel.

The current extinction date for edible fish is around 2040, so perhaps it would be good for a yoga practitioner to not eat what’s left of the fish.

The diet of the yogi is vegetarian, if one wants to progress there is no escaping this.

Try wheat germ oil, apple cider vinegar, spirulina.

[QUOTE=trivia;65862]The eggs I buy are coming from hens roaming on a farm outside… they have quite a nice life, and definitely don’t get ‘tortured to death’.

Nah, I buy sustainibly sourced fish off the coast of Cornwall.

The reason why I would like to give vegan (ex-eggs) a go, is that the process of killing fish is making me feeling guilty.

Could you give some examples, as I would like to give it a go for some weeks and see how I will feel.[/QUOTE]

About the eggs… you know this becasue you’ve been there and seen it for yourself? “Free range” is usually not what it sounds like. It just means the farm lives up to certain minimum standards. However, I’m sure there are exceptions and if that’s what you’ve found then I’m glad to hear about it.

About those oils… I use flax seed oils, which tastes like fish oil BTW, but I don’t use it daily. People get stuck on these nutrients IMO. We’ve just recently began to explore what those fatty acids do and don’t do. If you feel that it’s good for you then go on taking it. There are vegetable sources, like flax seeds and hemp seeds, I think.

About the fish… unless you catch it yourself you don’t know what they mean when they say “sustainably sourced”. Virtually no fishing means anything less than the slow killing of thousands upon thousands of animals, most of which are simply tossed back into the sea again (but dead of course).

I’m with you on the difference between eggs and dairy and fish. To get those fatty acids from the fish you have to kill it, there’s no way around that. So, I’ll survive without those fatty acids coming from fish then. It’s been done before. People have been vegetarian for thousands of years. I’m not gonna die without eating fish. I’ll probably be just fine.

Milk and eggs you can actually get without having to kill a cow (or calf rather) or torture a hen but I wouldn’t trust the egg and dairy industry to provide me with those products.

[QUOTE=Terje;65876]About the eggs… you know this becasue you’ve been there and seen it for yourself? [/QUOTE]
Yes, it is my dad’s friend who has a farm.

[QUOTE=Terje;65876]About those oils… I use flax seed oils, which tastes like fish oil BTW, but I don’t use it daily. People get stuck on these nutrients IMO. We’ve just recently began to explore what those fatty acids do and don’t do. If you feel that it’s good for you then go on taking it. There are vegetable sources, like flax seeds and hemp seeds, I think.

[…]

I’m with you on the difference between eggs and dairy and fish. To get those fatty acids from the fish you have to kill it, there’s no way around that. So, I’ll survive without those fatty acids coming from fish then. It’s been done before. People have been vegetarian for thousands of years. I’m not gonna die without eating fish. [B]I’ll probably be just fine. [/B][/QUOTE]

I am not convinced yet, as just cutting out those foods without being well informed on how to substitute them, is not too clever in my opinion.

Hi all,
I don’t get to this forum much anymore but just wanted to give my opinion that I respect anyone that tries to reduce suffering of animals, especially animals that have more consciousness, even if someone takes a few small steps in reducing red meat or if someone takes a large step to raw veganism.

When I was vegetarian I still had high cholesterol and arthritis, but when I went vegan with about 50 percent raw recipes, the doctors took me off of the daily medications and I’m back to biking and kayaking.

To put it succinctly, I feel that eating animals causes heart disease, cancer, and is a cruel torture to the animals involved.

As a raw vegan type, I am likely to be low in vitamin B 12, and vitamin D. So about 2 or 3 times a week I take a multi vitamin pill, I much prefer it, instead of taking cholesterol lowering drugs and arthritis drugs. Unfortunately, my two best friends of the past 60 years are omnivores, one has had quadruple heart surgery this year, and the other had skin and bladder cancer surgery this year. I’m serious, not joking. If you think omnivore diets give you something that you need, then you should consider getting that in some other form of supplement and not by eating animal products.
I hope today is a good day for swimming in Lake Superior, for me, and for other animals, best wishes, Gil.
P.S. I’ve been raw vegan for about 2 years now and loving it. As strong as ever, mentally and physically, and energy wise too.

[QUOTE=trivia;65883]Yes, it is my dad’s friend who has a farm.[/QUOTE]

Well, depending on how the hens were treated of course that would work for me too.

I am not convinced yet, as just cutting out those foods without being well informed on how to substitute them, is not too clever in my opinion.

Well, lots of us have without noticing any bad effects. I went vegetarian about 25 years ago, long before anyone was talking about omega this and omega that. I was a lacto-vegetarian for a lot of that time, did eat eggs too from time to time, but never touched fish after I stopped. Never missed it, never noticed any bad effects on my health.

I think that whatever importance those fatty acids play in our lives they do so at a young age and that perhaps the most important role they have played is to be found in our evolution.

[QUOTE=Terje;65859]It wasn’t said in the quote but there is definitely one thing pointing to meat being part of our diet. Or at least something from the animal kingdom. We need B12 and it simply isn’t found in a completely plants based diet.

I say this as a vegan. I see no problem with eating synthetic B12 as a supplement.

In a different world maybe I’d argue for some other kind of diet and way of living but we’re living here and now and in this society I see that the vegan diet is a solution to many huge problems.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. The “We’re meant to be vegan/vegetarian” argument is bogus as showcased by the fact that we need B12 and it is not received from a vegetarian/vegan diet.

That doesn’t mean that it’s not highly beneficial to transition to a vegan/vegetarian diet for health and environmental reasons as long as you supplement, as it can be. But anyone making the “we’re not meant to be carnivores” argument doesn’t understand basic nutritional science. And the funny thing is, that also means they probably aren’t supplementing B12 which means they’re going to be in a world of hurt in 1-5 years when their liver stores of B12 are used up and their body starts falling to pieces. No amount of yoga will cure that one.

[QUOTE=Terje;65889]
Well, lots of us have without noticing any bad effects. I went vegetarian about 25 years ago, long before anyone was talking about omega this and omega that. I was a lacto-vegetarian for a lot of that time, did eat eggs too from time to time, but never touched fish after I stopped. Never missed it, never noticed any bad effects on my health[/QUOTE]

These are good sites to read up about omega 3 intake:

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/omega3

http://www.vegetarian-dha-epa.co.uk/

I will give it a go, and try vegan for two months (twice an egg/week I will keep though). Let’s see how it goes. :smiley:

What people eat is such an interesting topic. Like politics and religion it is a volatile topic with strong opinions on either end of the spectrum. What we eat is sacred to us. You are literally what you eat and I am surprised by the lack of mindfulness demonstrated by most people.

I eat a raw vegan diet most of the time. Fortunately, I don’t have to explain my reasons. I do it primarily because I feel better physically and frankly, the food is far more delicious than I ever thought possible.

The way to spread the message is not by being militant or giving others a guilt trip, it is to prepare delicious food and share it with those that you love. Each of us can make a difference through compassion and caring. Share good books like “The China Study”, “The Omnivores Dilemma”, etc. Help people to see the ecological disaster of meat production in industrialized nations, but do it through kindness and compassion, not guilt.

Love is a great motivator when it comes to changing diet. What opened my eyes to great vegan food is a small restaurant in Sugarhouse, Utah called Omar’s Rawutopia. When I tasted the delicious food made with organic vegetables and love, I was hooked. Since that time I have been learning how to prepare raw vegan meals as well as cooked vegan food. It has been a great learning experience. I still continue to prepare some meat for a few of my family members. However, I am finding that their acceptance of vegan food is growing. Once they realize how delicious the food is and how good they feel after they eat it, they don’t notice that the meat and dairy products are missing.

One more thing, some vegans look down on others because they choose to eat differently. They love animals, but they don’t have compassion for their fellow man. It is another form of pride and must be avoided. Exercise patience and have compassion for others even if you don’t agree with what they put on their dinner plate.

[QUOTE=David;65891]… anyone making the “we’re not meant to be carnivores” argument doesn’t understand basic nutritional science.[/QUOTE]

We’re not meant to be carnivores for Christ’s sake! If there’s one thing we’re not it is carnivores. We’re not natural hunters, it’s something we learnt. We had the brains to figure it out and probably developed the brains by figuring it out (and I think that more than the fatty acids in the meat could be the reason that meat eating helped us evolve). We’re not herbivores either. We’re omnivores, true omnivores. We can, and probably “should” eat more or less everything.

There’s is still a possibility for the “we were meant to be vegan argument”. Back in the “good old days” we got some B12 from not washing our vegetables that carefully (if at all), drinking water from small rivers and creeks and from our own (not too clean) hands.

You and I basically agree on this though and I’m not one of those who think that “once upon a time in Eden we were true vegans like God intended us to be”. I’m not sure it’s the best soultion for everyone, nor that it’s the most ideal way of living in the long run. But for now, where we’re at today, it looks like the best option for most of us.

[QUOTE=fernmanus;65915]One more thing, some vegans look down on others because they choose to eat differently. They love animals, but they don’t have compassion for their fellow man. It is another form of pride and must be avoided. Exercise patience and have compassion for others even if you don’t agree with what they put on their dinner plate.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that.

Yes, I agree that we’re meant to be omnivores.

No, no we did not. If you really believe this, cite your source please.

[QUOTE=Terje;65919]But for now, where we’re at today, it looks like the best option for most of us.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know that it’s the best option for most of us (certainly some of us), but it’s the most ethical from an environmental perspective.

[QUOTE=David;65934]Yes, I agree that we’re meant to be omnivores.[/QUOTE]

OK, then we agree on that :slight_smile:

No, no we did not. If you really believe this, cite your source please.

No, it’s not realy a view I hold myself, it’s been suggested as a possibility and perhaps it might have happened. There was indeed an example in Iran of a vegan community and they got their B12 from not cleaning their vegetables that well and using their own feces as manuere (sp?). Eating your own excrements would work, there’s plenty of B12 there, but it’s not really a way anyone would choose.

I don’t know that it’s the best option for most of us (certainly some of us), but it’s the most ethical from an environmental perspective.

That’s sort of what I meant, just didn’t write it as clearly as you.

[QUOTE=Terje;65940]There was indeed an example in Iran of a vegan community and they got their B12 from not cleaning their vegetables that well and using their own feces as manuere (sp?). Eating your own excrements would work, there’s plenty of B12 there, but it’s not really a way anyone would choose.[/QUOTE]

  1. Source please. :slight_smile:

  2. There should not be “plenty of B12 there” if your enterhepatic circulation is working properly.

[QUOTE=David;65941]1. Source please. :slight_smile:

  1. There should not be “plenty of B12 there” if your enterhepatic circulation is working properly.[/QUOTE]

Well, I got it from a book that is no longer with me and it’s too complicated for me to get it back to verify it. So, you win, I have no source on that one (but if you want to check it out I’d say google Iran and vegan community and you might find it) but then again it’s not really a theory I believe much in since I don’t believe at all that we were once vegan. Vegan is a fairly new concept, an american one for all I know.

As for B12 in our intestines… that’s what I’ve read, that we have enough B12 (plenty may be the wrong word though) to fill our needs, but we need to consume it (and this is where it gets disgusting) so it’s not really available to us. There was a lob test done on this (I’m glad I wasn’t a part of it) where the test persons drank their own you-know-what (it was filtered and made into adrink to make it a little easier to swallow I suppose) and that was appearantly adequate for filling their needs for B12.

The thing to remember with B12 is that we don’t need much to survive and getting just enough to survive is enough from an evolutionary point of view, whether or not that’s the optimum amount for our health.