Are We Made of Sound? - and argument for mantra

Spirituality
#43

I have recently become a lot more relaxed in my views regarding personal gods(Saguna Brahman) and mythology(puranas) after discovering a flaw in my reasoning that Nirguna Brahman is the real Brahman and Sadguna Brahman is pure imagination, that even Nirguna Brahman is based on a linguistic definitions like self, essence, being, infinite, absolute, so why are they anymore valid than personal definitions like creator, preserver, destroyer, almighty, god, father, mother, son, daughter, teacher, friend, lover.

I have also realised that Saguna Brahman is not completely arbitrary at all. That it refers to actual roles and functions that exist in reality. There is definitely a creation principle, a preserving principle, and destroying principle. There is definitely something that has a fatherly aspect, a motherly aspect, a son aspect, a daughter aspect, teacher aspect, friend aspect and even love aspect. Otherwise, they would not exist. Thus my understanding of the ultimate divine reality has grown to encompass personality as well, and thereby also relaxed my attitudes on bhakti and the mythology that bhakti demands.

I now maintain that bhakti, jnana, karma, raja and kriya are all essential on the path of ones holistic spiritual development.

#44

That’s good. I noticed the change. Seems like a more healthy way to go. I don’t know why you have to maintain anything.

#45

Asuri,

“There are many tantric deities used in Tibertan Buddhism that have Hindu counterparts.”

If you want, you can find counterparts everywhere, not just in the East.

“And there is a definite symbolism connected with each one”

There is, and each one is a skillful means, just as all symbols are skillful means - a finger pointing to the moon.

“In the Sri Vidya school, there are nearly a hundred deities. Each one represents a particular aspect of the goddess. They definitely do not mean whatever you want them to mean.”

As all of these are human invention - created as devices to access certain aspects of the energy of nature, they will mean whatever you want them to mean because it is the mind which has given them meaning. You can even invent your own, and with the proper spirit flowing through the discipline, one will find them to be just as effective.

“For someone who is supposed to be realized, you seem to have a cynical attitude toward these things”

Most of the problems lie not in the methods, but in the disciple.

#46

“The Yidam deity is a mental construction, and has no real existence outside of your own mind. This kind of practice is different than contemplating the pranava.”

I would question this.

#47

You could invent your own internal combustion engine too, but chances are you would make every mistake that’s already been made for the past 100 years or so. And you would be foolish to attempt it unless you already know everything there is to know about existing internal combustion engines, and maybe you could make some improvement. I’m not an expert in Buddhist and Hindu tantric deities, but I’ve had contacts with people who are, and Amir Mourad is not one of them. If you have some questions about Yidam deities, you should consult the book, Dakini Teachings.

#48

I have read somewhere that the church bells are meant to imitate the sound Aum.

#49

Asuri,

“I’m not an expert in Buddhist and Hindu tantric deities, but I’ve had contacts with people who are”

Most of the people whom you have come into contact are perhaps far too attached to their own belief system and their own philosophies. Otherwise, it would remain impossible to continue clinging to these “deities” as though they are realities in themselves. They are just gateways to access certain dimensions of existence. If one really believes that Shiva, blue skin, has three eyes and wears a necklace of skulls, then one is simply being foolish. Neither is there anything magical about any mantra, not that certain mantras do not possess certain energies in themselves, but it is the qualities of one’s own mind which bring life to the mantra. The symbols for the chakras, they too are just skillful means. That is why if you look in certain traditions, the correspondences are different. In some traditions, sahasrara is white, in other traditions it is violet. In some traditions, ajna is blue, in others - it is orange. In some traditions - the descriptions of the pathways of the nadis are different, there are as many different perspectives on the matter as one can imagine.

You do not have to use the hindu or Buddhist deities as the means towards triggering certain energies within or without oneself. In the system of the Qabalah, they have totally different correspondences, and their methods work just as well. Rather than chanting Sanskrit, they are using Hebrew - and if you think the essential matter is whether you are chanting in Hebrew or Sanskrit, you have missed it.

#50

Hebrew is not a sound based language, as Sanskrit is. This is why Sanskrit mantras have certain potenecies.

Nobody claimed Shiva has blue skin, has three eyes and wears a necklace of skulls. So who are you responding to?

#51

You kids are playing with a snake. Very slippery. Fun for a few kicks but mostly worthless.

#52

[QUOTE=YogiDiva;50475]From an article by Sol Luckman: “One school of thought insists that humans are actually made of sound and that DNA itself may be a form of sound. After conducting meticulously documented research, Harvard-trained Leonard Horowitz expertly demonstrates that DNA emits and receives both phonons and photons, or electromagnetic waves of sound and light. In the 1990s, according to Dr. Horowitz, “three Nobel laureates in medicine advanced research that revealed the primary function of DNA lies not in protein synthesis … but in the realm of bioacoustic and bioelectric signaling.” In recent years a new artistic field called DNA music has even begun to flourish. It therefore seems appropriate, at the very least, to compare DNA to a keyboard with a number of keys that produce the music of life.”[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if we are made of sound, but it’s not surprising that there is an aural component to our being. A few months ago, during a Taoist Meditation circle of pretty heavy intensity, I kept hearing the pranav (Om) echoing in my inner ear and the vibrations would rise to a crescendo and fade with the flow of energy…everything is energy and sound is energy…(a simplistic approach perhaps but it’s verifiable experientially)

#53

How is sound energy?

#54

[QUOTE=The Scales;53475]How is sound energy?[/QUOTE]

Hmm…how indeed? Perhaps because it is a mechanical waveform that travels through various media? Affects the medium as well as that which it acts upon?
:wink:

I suppose you wanted just a basic understanding of sound energy? Or did you want to get deeper into the physics of it?

#55

Surya,

“Hebrew is not a sound based language, as Sanskrit is.”

According to the Jews, much of it is. Particularly for mystic Qabalists, not only is it sound based, but it is a multidimensional language. I know because I have been initiated into mystery schools which deal with in part with the Qabalah. Every letter of Hebrew from Aleph to Tau is not just a sound - but every sound is a word, and every word is also a number - all of which are different forms of vibration. The sounds of the letters are not just sounds, they are supposed to contain mystic properties. That is why one practice of the Qabalists is something called Gematria - converting a word into numerical values. Gematria is used by them to reduce the whole Torah into numbers and try to decode the scripture, connecting words together which have the same numerical value.

According to these Qabalists, Hebrew is a divine language from the angels of God. Like the process of nyasa in tantra yoga - where the letters of Sanskrit are to be vibrated and visualized in different corresponding parts of the body - the same is the case in the Qabalah. The system of the yogic sciences is not the only approach which has made use of various energy centers in the body. Just as there are the chakras in yoga, there are the Sephirahs in the Qabalah, and the Lataif Al Sitta (the six subtleties) in Sufism. But unlike yoga, in the Qabalistic system the energy centers in the body of man have no place either for the muladhara at the base of the spine, or the ajna chakra in between the eyebrows.

The letters of the alphabet of Hebrew for the Qabalists have specific frequencies of vibration, just as it is the case in yoga. There is one well known text called the Sepher Yetzirah, the so called Book of Formation, which speaks of the evolution of the cosmos as Sephirahs emenating from the source of existence, as well as various different techniques of concentration and visualization to awaken certain state of consciousness. Each of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet represents a particular force of the energy of existence - the so called “Three Mothers” represent the elements of Fire, Water, and Air, the “Seven Doubles” represent the forces of the seven planets, and the so called “Twelve Singles” correspond to the constallations of space. One technique in the Qabalah is simply the repetition of the letter Mem as a mantra and the visualization of its form as the yantra - the technique is basically not different than the tantric methods of concentration. The energy and sound of the letter Mem is said to correspond with the element of Water, the letter itself means water.

And like this - there is a whole system not just for the expansion of consciousness, but as a kind of model to have an intellectual understanding of the whole existence. So these letters of the Hebrew alphabet are supposed to be not just ordinary letters - they are divine. The same is the case with those who have been clinging to the idea that Sanskrit is divine, they are just as convinced that their alphabet is not an ordinary, human language, it is a language which has come from Brahman himself.

#56

Sorry, I don’t buy these newage interpretations. I have a few friends who are Kabbalists and I tell them the same. To me it just nonsensical number crunching, Herbrew scholars do not agree with new-age Kabbalh interpretretations.

Take this letter, convert it to its number, find where it corresponds on the tree of life diagram and find some mystical meaning.

I think it is highly dishonest to force meanings on texts. The original writers of the OT did not write it with a code in mind, it was just a random collection of writings by different authors. Not the work of some esoteric mystery lodge who encoded in the bible great teaching about chakras etc. Besides, why encode it anyway? The Vedic literature does not encode information, it simply gives literal descriptions.

Only new-age people buy into this ancient and secret code and meaning in the bible crap.

#57

Surya,

“I don’t buy these newage interpretations.”

Most of Qabalah is centuries older than the New Age fanaticism that has arisen.

I did not say anywhere that I agree with the Qabalists. I was simply speaking of the methods that they have used. Most of Jewish mysticism is entirely a figment of man’s imagination, particularly because they have been trying to force everything from the beginning according to their Jewish philosophy.

#58

“The Vedic literature does not encode information, it simply gives literal descriptions”

Although containing enormous insight in parts, the majority of the Vedas is just as much an outcome of man’s imagination as the Bible, the Torah, the Quran, and other scriptures.

#59

Speak only if you are qualified to speak, or hold your words :wink: There is nothing imaginative about the Vedic literature. The Vedas are the works of hundreds of human Risis over several generations going back to unknown antiquity, and contains their injunctions(such as speak sweetly and softly to one another) spiritual teachings they themselves experienced(such as penetrate deep into the nature of reality) They were organized by democratic Vedic councils of Risis who would meet occasionally.

The other class of Vedic literature known as Upanishad is more straight discourse, presenting logical argumuments for the existence of Brahman. That the student had to listen to, critically analyse and deeply contemplate on.

When you get to the Shastra texts then the standards of critical examination get much sharper. These are all written in highly concise and precise language.

The bible and the Quran are based on fictional entities giving direct messages to prophets. In the bible that is God. The Quran itself is revealed by a fictional entity to Mohammed called Angel Gabriel, and the entire Quran is basically the dialogues Mohammed has with god. The Vedic literature is nothing like that.

#60

[QUOTE=Dwai;53481]Hmm…how indeed? Perhaps because it is a mechanical waveform that travels through various media? Affects the medium as well as that which it acts upon?
:wink:

I suppose you wanted just a basic understanding of sound energy? Or did you want to get deeper into the physics of it?[/QUOTE]

sound is the expression of energy it is not energy.

i.e it is the effect

#61

[QUOTE=The Scales;53535]sound is the expression of energy it is not energy.

i.e it is the effect[/QUOTE]

You just got on my ignore list…don’t know about anti-troll features on this site, but I’d ask the moderators to use a few of those on you. Or if they add the feature to ignore users selectively, then I’d apply that on your user id.

BTW, everything in this universe is an expression of energy. Electricity, Light, Heat, Matter. Energy cannot be viewed in and of itself. It can be experienced as light, sound, heat, electricity etc.

#62

[QUOTE=Dwai;53538]You just got on my ignore list…don’t know about anti-troll features on this site, but I’d ask the moderators to use a few of those on you. Or if they add the feature to ignore users selectively, then I’d apply that on your user id.

BTW, everything in this universe is an expression of energy. Electricity, Light, Heat, Matter. Energy cannot be viewed in and of itself. It can be experienced as light, sound, heat, electricity etc.[/QUOTE]

Good.