Ashtanga ? Shoulder position

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

Hi! This is my first post in this forum. Have searched for answer but haven?t found it, so now I post.

I have been doing asthanga first series for a while now, my teacher is following Pattabbi Jois tradition. Recently I were at a workshop with a well-renowned teacher and he was correcting the shoulders in sun salutation, where you extends the arms over your head. My shoulders were pressed down but he said they should extend with the arms so you reach as high as you can (because that was the whole purpose with the pose).

Now I wonder if my shoulder is wrong in every position where you extend the arms. Sun salutation, warrior pose, downward dog. [B]Should the shoulders extend with the arms in those positions?[/B]

My teacher now presses the shoulders down to your body and meanwhile you are supposed to extend the arms and keep them straight. That?s really uncomfortable, difficult and doesn?t feel well.

IF the shoulders should extend. Then I must say something to the teacher, doesn?t feel really good to lecture ones teacher but it?s hard living with this, it affects many things.

One other question. Have this particular thing changed by time maybe, was it different 50 years ago or so!? If it?s wrong. Then I wonder how comes my teacher is doing wrong. Because I can?t think that it should be different from teacher to teacher, or from country to country.

I hope my English works.

Thanks

#2

Your english is very good!

All of my teachers have always said shoulders down (with the exception of a few poses) while the arms extend, so the tops of the shoulders and sides of the neck are long and open. Was this teacher at the workshop adjusting just that pose (samastithi with arms over head) in this way, or was he also doing it for Downward Dog and other poses?

I have actually heard of lifting the shoulders while the arms extend in the pose you were describing before, to really get a feeling of lifting and reaching up for the arms and sides of the body. Perhaps this is one of those Ashtanga grey areas where you have some teachers that teach one way, and other teachers teach another way.

According to my knowledge, there have been minor edits to the way the poses are done over the years, so this could account for some confusion in the practice. In my experience, I have over extremely overextended elbows and I have one teacher who will always tell me to bend my elbows in Downdog to make my arms appear straight, though in fact for my body, my elbows are quite bent. I have another teacher who always adjusts my arms to be truly straight (which appears over-extended on my body) every time. When I was new to yoga, this type of thing was very frustrating, as no one seemed to agree on what the correct alignment should be. I now believe they are both right. I have my own personal preference, but I am very open to learning the other side.
Another example: I once did a workshop with Chuck and Maty, who were adamant about keeping legs straight in forward folds, even if the hamstrings are extremely tight and the back was really rounded. My main teachers had always said to keep a slight bend in the knees if the legs were really tight so the spin could lengthen more. Again, I believe both sides to be right for different reasons, and the practitioner gets to chose what is right for them. I love hearing and learning different perspectives on alignment and how to do poses.

You should ask your regular teacher about your particular inquiry. Most teachers know about the other ways of doing things. You wouldn’t come across as lecturing your teacher. I think it’s a very viable question, and I think they would enjoy telling you about it! I hope I helped a little! :slight_smile:

#3

Thanks for good answer!

[QUOTE=gentle_yogini;30502]Was this teacher at the workshop adjusting just that pose (samastithi with arms over head) in this way, or was he also doing it for Downward Dog and other poses?[/QUOTE]He was talking about it afterwards. I can’t remember if he mentioned those other poses also. BUT, in his book, it says “extend shoulders” on those three poses (sun, downdog & warrior).

[QUOTE=gentle_yogini;30502]You should ask your regular teacher about your particular inquiry. Most teachers know about the other ways of doing things. You wouldn’t come across as lecturing your teacher. I think it’s a very viable question, and I think they would enjoy telling you about it! I hope I helped a little! :)[/QUOTE]Yes I must ask about this. But first I have to gather some input. Will try ask some other local teacher here also. It could be like you wrote, a gray zone and a little different from teacher to teacher then. Don’t like gray zones :slight_smile:

#4

I have been practicing Ashtanga for six years and am a certified ashtanga teacher. My advice would be to do what feels good in your body. Yoga is not a bout looking a certain way, it is about uniting the body, mind, atman…if you are uncomfortable or pained in a position, that is a sign to do something different. You don’t need to lecture your current teacher, but you could say to him/her that you went to this workshop and you learned something very interesting, and then share with your teacher what this master yoga teacher did. That way it’s a sharing of experience rather than a lecture. I hope this helps.
Namaste.

#5

Alright. It seems that I got something wrong, if there is no “right” way of doing that. Then both teachers are right. Of course I wouldn’t put in a way so I lecture my teacher. Respect the teacher.

Just feels a little strange with difference in an significant detail like this.

#6

when you talk of lifting the shoulders,are you talking about the shoulder blades ie the scapula ? I am not Quite understanding what you mean .Doing whatever feels comfortable may or may not be helpful,whilst it is not helpful to get trapped in the form of asana ,the free flow of prana is crucial in any progress imho.
Seems that you are going to get clarification which is the skillful option
yours in yoga

#7

[QUOTE=charliedharma;30517]when you talk of lifting the shoulders,are you talking about the shoulder blades ie the scapula?[/QUOTE]Yes. Lift the shoulder blades (scapula) was what I ment.

[QUOTE=charliedharma;30517]Doing whatever feels comfortable may or may not be helpful,whilst it is not helpful to get trapped in the form of asana ,the free flow of prana is crucial in any progress imho. Seems that you are going to get clarification which is the skillful option[/QUOTE]Yes, my point of view also. I believe some poses have changed by time through scientific research. Just to make them even better for your body and the purpose. So, I think there is a “right” way in every pose. But of course, as a beginner, or if you have some complications. Then you can change a little.

#8

I cant quite see why you would lift the scapula when raising the arms over the shoulders,would we walk around like that or sit like that,also I dont think they should jammed down as this would be the opposite side of the same pose,somewhere in the middle is good for me.alot of people overwork the shoulders in asana/life and underwork other areas ,if we release the trapezius muscles the shoulderblades will release also,The shoulderblades help in supporting the front body heart and lungs if our shoulderblades are up around the ears how are we going to keep the heart and throat chakras soft ,open and lovley?
Having said this the visiting teacher may have been trying to make a point about something,Perhaps you could clarify with them.
For sure I think how asanas are done has changed,hopefully for the better.
have a good day Danny

#9

If you keep the scapulas separated while you lift them, so they are as wide as when you keep them down. Then it’s no problem with pressing the head and ears. This issue is getting more interesting, I have to call someone and check. Will return with results.

Have a good day you too charliedharma and thanks for answer

#10

…I have now called the place that were arranging that workshop. The master teacher there said that this is different from teacher to teacher!

So. It was like you all have said. A gray zone :slight_smile:

But I still wonder how many of you that tries to keep the scapulas down when you raise your arms. Not in the middle or something, activly down as to the same level as when arms are down?

#11

Glad you got to the bottom of it! (Kind of :slight_smile: ) To answer your question, I keep my shoulders down when I raise my arms.

Have a great day!

#12

more input. I was calling a famous place in Stockholm and she said that you shouldn’t force the scapulas somewhere. Except keeping them separated so you open your chest good. The important thing in samastithi was to extend your waist. So, let the scapulas just follow natural but keep them separated good seems to be the final conclusion.

I have to ask my teacher if I could be allowed to do like this rather than to force them down :slight_smile:

Thanks! Have a great day you too gentle_yogini.

#13

…I’m the kind of guy that always asks myself “why”. And… the one who seek, will find :slight_smile: now I have a [I]final[/I] input here:

Short version is: Do whatever feels best, but it’s preferable to try keep your shoulders/scapula (reffered as s/s further on) down if it feels ok.

Long version, for who ain’t got tired of this thread already:

I just came home from led class and my teacher didn’t have a hitting reason. She said that you can do whatever feels best but it’s better to try keep your s/s down because it was better training and the trick, from her point of view, is to extend your upper body but try keep the s/s down. More difficult but “better”.

When I got home from work I was visiting another yoga studio and asked the same question. She actually had a quite solid idea of this (!). They also teach to keep s/s down, because of training to lower your s/s. Better to keep the hands apart if you can’t hold your arms straight in that position. She also said that she recently attended a seminar where they said the same thing.

So now I feel good again. I will do like my teacher teach and keep s/s down. It feels strange but I guess it will feel better with time as I improve. I improve quite fast now I think and I want to do the “best” way, not the most comfortable way :slight_smile: Yoga is much more than asanas of course, but I just wanted to know why. Now I know! :slight_smile: Thanks everybody and be well

#14

Hello Danny,

I preface my reply to you with this statement:
“Different expressions of yoga approach and teach and do asana in different ways.”

What this means is that it is best to get a reply from those you have chosen to teach you. That does not make their reply right or wrong. It does not make their reply sound or unsound. It merely gives you an answer based on what you have already chosen.

Never the less, I will give you an answer which is the way in which I practice, the way in which I am taught, and the way in which I currently teach students (and yes, some things do change over time). It is also important to note that their are levels of truth. An instruction I give to a beginner in Bhujangasana may be completely true for that person in their practice at that time. That same instruction may be completely inappropriate for another student with more experience or a different practice, body, life.

Generally speaking, the humerus (upper arm bone) is drawn into it’s socket and secured there by your ability to use certain muscles while not using others. Then the poses of aspiration - the one’s where there is no weight bearing on the upper extremities, like Virabhadrasana I, Utkatasana, Vrksasana, Urdhva Hastasana, Parsva Konasana - these poses lift the shoulder blades and the humerus as one. Humerus in joint, scapula lifting.

The action is not the same in weight-bearing poses (generally) like Adho Mukha Svanasana, Adho Mukha Vrksasana, Pincha Mayurasana, though the humerus does maintain its relationship with the shoulder joint in those poses.

#15

Thanks for interesting answer Gordon!

Yes I agree with that teacher-thing. I like my teacher and I like to follow her teachings as I believe in and respect her. It’s just that this “greater master” made me wondering about this. Well. Next time I will not take so seriously on other influences (that’s one bad thing about internet :))

#16

…sorry for waking up this old thread. But I found an important detail. When arms are up in sun salutation, my teacher wants us to hold the head between the arms, and look up. NOT lean head back and look up! So that little detail is the one detail making it feeling strange. Now I try to keep scapulas down but lean head back a little. No problem! :slight_smile:

#17

Awesome to hear! Isn’t it funny how a single detail in yoga can change EVERYTHING?

:slight_smile:

#18

yes! some people think I am fussy with the details on my job and so. But as I see it, the details are the things that builds up everything :slight_smile: