Thank you all.
I have tried classes advertised as ‘Ashtanga Yoga,’ some as ‘Power Yoga,’ and even ‘Ashtanga Power Yoga.’ All these classes were pretty much conducted in the same way, subject to the teachers interpretation.
Is Power Yoga another term for Ashtanga Yoga? Or a western adoption of Patabi Jois’s Ashtanga Yoga(the asana aspect)?
[QUOTE=Terence;50433]Hello all, I have a question regarding Ashtanga Yoga, which I hope experienced practitioners/teachers could help me with.
I have practiced yoga for 12 years, for about 3 years of that I was incorporating Ashtanga Yoga into my practice.
Whilst in India, I studied Ashtanga for a summer and moved away from it for 2 reasons. Firstly, it wasn’t helping to heal old injuries in my ankle and lower back. Secondly, the massive amount of ego I saw in other students and teachers.
I asked a teacher about the amount of ego I was seeing, and he explained to me that Ashtanga wasn’t really a spiritual discipline as such, more of a physical exercise. I initially started yoga to heal myself from injuries in martial arts, and ‘psychological injuries’ sustained in life. So it seemed Ashtanga wasn’t for me.
Recently I saw an explanation of Ashtanga Yoga given by David Swenson. Within 2 minutes, he gave an insight into yoga as a spiritual discipline, something I have come across in ‘Hatha’ and Iyengar Yoga classes, but never in an Ashtanga class. It got my interest. I’m considering trying it again.
So, I’d be interested in hearing what experienced Ashtanga practitioners have to say about their practice and my comments… ;)[/QUOTE]
I bealive that spirituality of yoga practice is coming from the teacher or the seeking student. Not from the BRAN NAME of yoga practice.
It is interesting to see yoga students who aware just about one limb of yoga - asana. Maybe they are not ready to receive other kind of knowledge.
If you want your practice to be spiritual you need to look for spiritual yoga teacher, who can drive his students, and who’s students are lokking for spirituality. Again, it is not the Brand of yoga, but an individual who is practicing it.
[QUOTE=reaswaran;51305]Nobody can “practice” meditation. you can practice dharan “concentration” -dharan. When dharan deepens and stays steady on one subject it is called dhyan -meditation. Dhyan is a byproduct.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think it is a controversial issue.
Dyanam or meditation is a state of mind, For that we practice dharana, generally we call this practice dyanam (meditaion).
Holding the mind on a certain point. The mind shold be made to think of one point in the heart , for that we practice dharana.
When the mind has been trained to remain fixed on a certain internal or external location, there comes to it the power of flowing in an unbroke current, as it were, towards that point. This state is called Dhyana.
If the mind can first concentrate upon an object (we do it in dharana), and then is able to continue in that concentration for a lenght of time, and then, by continued concentration , this is called Dhyanam ( Meditation.)
Dharana, Dhayan, and Samadhi together are called Samyama.
Thank you all .
I have found that the title of a particular style of yoga practice is rarely the best indicator of the spirit of the practice or particular community. As with all aspects of life, our spirits resonate with some things more than others, and we all interpret the same experience or information in vastly different ways. I’ve lived in many different states and experienced a large number of different styles of classes, studios, and instructors and have personally developed the mantra of ‘try as much as possible, embracing only what feels right’. Avoiding a particular style because of a few experiences that did not resonate as your truth might keep you from experiencing something amazing!
Blessings on your journey!
[QUOTE=Lisha;51383]I have found that the title of a particular style of yoga practice is rarely the best indicator of the spirit of the practice or particular community. As with all aspects of life, our spirits resonate with some things more than others, and we all interpret the same experience or information in vastly different ways. I’ve lived in many different states and experienced a large number of different styles of classes, studios, and instructors and have personally developed the mantra of ‘try as much as possible, embracing only what feels right’. Avoiding a particular style because of a few experiences that did not resonate as your truth might keep you from experiencing something amazing!
Blessings on your journey![/QUOTE]
Well put! 
[QUOTE=hanuma;51381]I don’t think it is a controversial issue.
Dyanam or meditation is a state of mind, For that we practice dharana, generally we call this practice dyanam (meditaion).
Holding the mind on a certain point. The mind shold be made to think of one point in the heart , for that we practice dharana.
When the mind has been trained to remain fixed on a certain internal or external location, there comes to it the power of flowing in an unbroke current, as it were, towards that point. This state is called Dhyana.
If the mind can first concentrate upon an object (we do it in dharana), and then is able to continue in that concentration for a lenght of time, and then, by continued concentration , this is called Dhyanam ( Meditation.)
Dharana, Dhayan, and Samadhi together are called Samyama.
Thank you all .[/QUOTE]
When you say, ‘we call this practice dhyanam’, please tell us who are “we”. Is this your experience, impression, training or reading and then from what source. Because your description does not fit with Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras in more than one ways:
-
Dharana, dhyana and samadhi are not mind states, but states of awareness. They are preceded by a state called pratyahara, where one succeeds in detaching the mind from thinking, to enable these states.
-
Dharana is concentration on images, symbols and codes (in that order) in one’s inner domain, with nothing external, or subjective or mind/ thinking is present
-
Sustained dharana, is dhyana. Sustaining requires detachment made effortless, otherwise the efforts create thoughts.
-
What you call as “it happens” perhaps refers to samadhi where nothing is a target and one is absorbed only in the awareness.
-
Sanyama is not just dharana, dhyana and samadhi “together”; it is “the 3 states not occurring sequentially, but instantly”.
Patanjali has codified the yoga terminology for the sole purpose of avoiding multiple meanings of the same term or confusion caused by different approaches and styles. Hope it is useful.
[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;51389]When you say, ‘we call this practice dhyanam’, please tell us who are “we”. Is this your experience, impression, training or reading and then from what source. Because your description does not fit with Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras in more than one ways:
-
Dharana, dhyana and samadhi are not mind states, but states of awareness. They are preceded by a state called pratyahara, where one succeeds in detaching the mind from thinking, to enable these states.
-
Dharana is concentration on images, symbols and codes (in that order) in one’s inner domain, with nothing external, or subjective or mind/ thinking is present
-
Sustained dharana, is dhyana. Sustaining requires detachment made effortless, otherwise the efforts create thoughts.
-
What you call as “it happens” perhaps refers to samadhi where nothing is a target and one is absorbed only in the awareness.
-
Sanyama is not just dharana, dhyana and samadhi “together”; it is “the 3 states not occurring sequentially, but instantly”.
Patanjali has codified the yoga terminology for the sole purpose of avoiding multiple meanings of the same term or confusion caused by different approaches and styles. Hope it is useful.[/QUOTE]
Why are you criticising that word “practicing meditation” , When we are doing meditation , we call it practicing meditation or dhyana . Generally We call like that in india.
"Meditation is the flow of Continuous thought on one thing or god. "
Please read some more books on patanjali yoga sutras and meditation , Swami vivakanada books are good. There are so many indian yoga and meditation books are there in the market. Please refer that.
[QUOTE=reaswaran;51305]Nobody can “practice” meditation. you can practice dharan “concentration” -dharan. When dharan deepens and stays steady on one subject it is called dhyan -meditation. Dhyan is a byproduct.[/QUOTE]
Every day doing Dhayna is Called “Dhayna Sadhana”.
"Why are you criticising that word “practicing meditation”
It cannot be practiced, on any level, simply because it is not something that can arise as a conscious effort of the mind. At the most, one can create an inner atmosphere of preparedness where meditation can spotnaneously arise as a force of its own. You can dissolve into it, become possessed by it, but you cannot do it.
"When we are doing meditation , we call it practicing meditation or dhyana "
It may be useful to speak of it in that sense, just out of convenience. Otherwise, one never does meditation - one becomes meditation. And the difference between the two is enormous, they are dimensions apart.
[QUOTE=hanuma;53865]Why are you criticising that word “practicing meditation” , When we are doing meditation , we call it practicing meditation or dhyana . Generally We call like that in india.
"Meditation is the flow of Continuous thought on one thing or god. "
[/QUOTE]
Obviously hanuma understands dhyana. The only thing that is being argued here is the semantics of the word ‘practice’. It’s true that it is widely said in India, even in yoga schools, that one ‘practices meditation’. I think it is only done out of convenience and lexical limitation, but it would probably be more accurate to say that we ‘experience dhyana’. It may seem nitpicky, but using more descriptive wording can help people understand what is and isn’t dhyana.
Part of what causes the confusion, I think, it that most of the ‘western world’ continues to use just the single word ‘meditation’ to refer to what Patanjali describes as four limbs, from pratyahara to samadhi. This limits our understanding of the distinction between the four.
I think we can practice inducing a state of mind (pratyahara and dharana), but we cannot practice a state of mind itself (dhyana and samadhi). A state of mind occurs when we set up the right conditions. Can we ‘practice’ transcendence of the material human experience? It seems to go beyond the conscious effort that is implied in the word ‘practice’. (For clarity’s sake, ‘practice’ is defined as repeatedly performing a skill or exercise in order to improve upon it.)
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;53868]"…It may be useful to speak of it in that sense, just out of convenience. Otherwise, one never does meditation - one becomes meditation. And the difference between the two is enormous, they are dimensions apart.[/QUOTE]
Dear Amir,
Sage Patanjali speaks of abhyasa which means constant practice, practice would include the element of doing.
Also, he speaks of many levels of samadhi, from Sampragyat samadhi (Vitark, Vichar, Anand, Asmita anugat samadhi) to Asampragyat samadhi, and finally Kaivalya, the state of complete, absolute liberation. To elevate from one level to next one will need to practice, hence, practice/do meditation is not incorrect. In yoga sutra, meditation and samadhi are steps, they are not “states” you refer to.
Are we confusing meditation/samadhi with Kaivalya?
Namaste
I have seen translations of Patanjali’s Samadhi Pada use the word ‘state’, such as this one: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/yogasutr.htm
1.47. On attaining the purity of the ultra-meditative state there is the pure flow of spiritual consciousness.
In The Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda, it is written that “Samadhi is called the superconscious state.”
BKS Iyengar uses the word ‘state’ to describe both dhyana and samadhi and the introduction of Light on Yoga (pages 51 and 52).
The fact that these are steps does not mean that they can’t be states as well. A ‘state’ is only a condition of the mind, which can be anything from suffering to bliss.
[QUOTE=trinley;53892]…The fact that these are steps does not mean that they can’t be states as well. A ‘state’ is only a condition of the mind, which can be anything from suffering to bliss.[/QUOTE]
Yes, these steps (dhyana, samadhi) includes lower state of consciousness which is not yet firmly rooted. Because consciousness is not firmly rooted, continue [U]practice of meditation[/U] is required until the state of Kaivalya is reached.
Namaste
Then I can’t understand your previous post where you said that meditation and samadhi are not states, followed by the one above where you agree that they are states.
As far as I have read, no one has argued that dhyana is the final state or that it is “firmly rooted”. The discussion relates to whether the word “practice” is appropriate when speaking of meditation. Now that we have (hopefully) clarified that dhyana is in fact a ‘state’ (according Patanjali, Vivekandana, Iyengar…), the question is whether we can practice a mental state. I still hold that while we can practice techniques (pratyahara and dharana) with the intention of inducing a state of mind, we cannot actually practice a state of mind. A state of mind is a result.
Trinley,
I had no intention of criticising Hanuma. But looking back at the posts clinically don’t you find that the same words mean different things to different people? This gets worse when we try to capture in words states and processes as subtle as dhyana. We attempt to create a GPS map of a spiritual path. Our statements appear to be stuffed with same words, but end up being ‘understood’ quite differently.
What I wrote as an honest opinion reached Hanuma as criticism. You read injustice in the exchange. If you read my post, I have put my thoughts categorically and would have liked a reciprocal response.
I am born and brought up in India and lived there for 50 years before work brought me to USA. Though I am grateful for a spiritual upbringing, I have legitimate complaints about a few things. Many of my brothers and sisters take the spiritual heritage for granted and find no reason to invest in it deeper. Knowledge remains limited to tongue and teeth and does not become an expresstion of heart and self-experience.
By implication, it is a common belief that people in the western world are generally ignorant in this respect. Where an ability to question is not generally encouraged, it is very difficult to even imagine that some westerners are extremely wel-versed in Yoga Sutra and other scriptures. It is easily forgotten that whether east or west, Yoga remains an introspective process. That also makes it an “individualized universal experience”. Sage Patanjali created Yoga Sutra precisely to codify and standardize the multiple individual versions existing then. I think the need exists even today.
[QUOTE=trinley;53895]Then I can’t understand your previous post where you said that meditation and samadhi are not states, followed by the one above where you agree that they are states.
As far as I have read, no one has argued that dhyana is the final state or that it is “firmly rooted”. The discussion relates to whether the word “practice” is appropriate when speaking of meditation. Now that we have (hopefully) clarified that dhyana is in fact a ‘state’ (according Patanjali, Vivekandana, Iyengar…), the question is whether we can practice a mental state. I still hold that while we can practice techniques (pratyahara and dharana) with the intention of inducing a state of mind, we cannot actually practice a state of mind. A state of mind is a result.[/QUOTE]
Dhyana is a step in the practice of yoga (as per yoga sutra of patanjali). It happens to [U]include[/U] (but not limited to) lower state of consciousness just like any other 7 rungs of yoga. Meditation is a practice where one goes in and out of consciousness, until consciousness is perfectly rooted, it is Kaivalya. At that point the step of meditation is said to be no longer serving its purpose.
Sorry, this is the best I can explain. I am a beginning student, my understanding / practice is limited.
Namaste
[QUOTE=Prascina;51346]Dhyan a by product?
Dharana is the practice step towards the state of dhyan.
Dharana can be a guided practice. Dhyan is a state of being.[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure how this really fits into the topic, except that dharana and dhyana are two of the eight angas. I believe that the above statement is a common misconception. If you read through the Upanishads and some other Indian scriptures, you will find many practices that are called dhyana. I believe that dhyana is actually a category of practices. The common thread among these seems to be some type of visualization and sometimes mantras, which serve to keep the thoughts flowing in one direction. In samadhi the visualizations are discontinued.
I can’t really back this up with extensive research. Its more or less based on a casual reading. But some reading is more than none.
[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;53899]You read injustice in the exchange. [/QUOTE]
I’m not sure how you feel that I was referring to you at all. My interest lay in discussing whether we can rightly say that we “practice” a state. It was said by hanuma that many people practice meditation. Then it was rebutted by reaswaran that “Nobody can ‘practice’ meditation.” I expressed my agreement with this side of the semantic debate.
My post was not a reply to yours, and it was not my intention to suggest that you were doing anything, whether it be criticizing or inflicting injustice. I do make every effort to write clearly. I believe you have made some assumptions here.
Ashtanga Yoga is a physical discipline that helps the practitioner control the autonomic nervous system. In other words, it utilizes the body's own natural healing capabilities and brings about results without depending on any form of artificial assistance.' It was created in India during the time of Lord Krishnamacharya by some of his students who were rendering service as teachers to garner knowledge from India. The purpose of this yoga technique is to help users attain perfect health as well as perfect balance and coordination in every movement. Benefits include: Develops concentration, increase in flexibility, energy levels, strength, improvement in posture and correct use of muscles.
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The eight limbs of traditional Yoga progress from the physical to inner dimensions of human consciousness. The Patanjala Yoga Sutra proposes a holistic and transcendental awareness for this integration.
Yama, Niyama, Āsana, Prāṇāyāma and Pratyāhāra provide a strong foundation for the practice of Yoga. For powerful yogic meditation techniques, dhāraṇā, dhyana, and samādhi help in gradual and effortless concentration for achieving complete stillness of the body and mind.