Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36003]I think you need to understand practicing Hinduism is nothing more than spirituality. That is that the entire world practices spirituality by practicing self-development, Yoga, meditation and living in harmony with nature and the animals. Is that such a bad thing?
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It is not a bad thing at all, I’m just not understanding why you feel have to put a label and doctrine to it and force everyone to believe. People will believe how they feel they believe - there is no way to [B]force [/B]belief upon anyone other than brainwashing.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36003]
The world is not meant to be any way, it is will be as we want it to be. If we want to live in a violent, disharmonious and oppresive world then it will be so. If we want to live in a peace, harmonious and prosperous world then it will be so. Again I find it interesting that you oppose the latter.
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If it is to be as we want it, then it appears that this is what we want collectively.

I do not oppose the latter, I simply accept the world for what it is.

I think you need to understand practicing Hinduism is nothing more than spirituality. That is that the entire world practices spirituality by practicing self-development, Yoga, meditation and living in harmony with nature and the animals. Is that such a bad thing?
It is very interesting you oppose this.

I can see people doing yoga, meditating, living in harmony and practicing spirituality in many forms of religion, not only Hindu.

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36006]I can see people doing yoga, meditating, living in harmony and practicing spirituality in many forms of religion, not only Hindu.[/QUOTE]

This is very true. In fact, I can see people doing these things even more effectively when no religion or doctrines are involved. You do not need religion in order to be spiritual. I have met many spiritual people who are not indoctrinated in any ‘ism’ at all.

And what is spirituality then? What do you think of when you think of spirituality or what do you see when you go to the mind body section in a bookstore? Yoga, meditation, chakras, higher self, prana, reincarnation, spiritual evolution, crystals, ayurveda, karma, ascended masters, astral planes and bodies, non dualism etc

All of this is Hinduism and has come from Hinduism. This is exactly what our religion teaches and what every Hindu has known for thousands of years. So of course I am going to insist you use the label Hinduism. In fact if you want to be more authenetic please use the word Santana Dharma(Eternal way)

Secondly, it is not a matter of belief but acceptance of facts. I hate that word “belief” Nobody should believe in anything. They should accept what is true and reject what is false.

If it is to be as we want it, then it appears that this is what we want collectively.

I do not oppose the latter, I simply accept the world for what it is.

I accept the world for what it is whilst at the time knowing that it doesn’t have to be like this. I do not want to live in a world ravaged by war, inequality, oppression, crime and materialism. Who does?

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36006]I can see people doing yoga, meditating, living in harmony and practicing spirituality in many forms of religion, not only Hindu.[/QUOTE]

Yep, and that is Hinduism.

Your problem is you are not acknowleding the source. No other religion other than the dharmic family of religions teach as their main teaching yoga, meditation and spirituality. Of those the source of the dharma family emphasies them the most and is the original religion that taught this.

Abrahamic religions teach the absolute opposite of spirituality.

Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual’s inner life; such practices often lead to an experience of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm.[3] Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life.[4] It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world.

There are many books in the “spirituality” isle of the bookstore dealing with Native American spirituality and Christianity. Not just Hindu influenced books. In reading the definition, this would encompass any type of religious group and their books dealing with discovery of their essence or being.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36011]Yep, and that is Hinduism.

Your problem is you are not acknowleding the source. No other religion other than the dharmic family of religions teach as their main teaching yoga, meditation and spirituality. Of those the source of the dharma family emphasies them the most and is the original religion that taught this.

Abrahamic religions teach the absolute opposite of spirituality.[/QUOTE]

I can acknowledge the source all I want, and have. Reality is people can and do live happy and harmonious lives, doing yoga, meditating without being labeled Hindu. As repeated often, we are truly grateful for all that Hinduism has given and shared. Again, to my point, we each have our own path to follow. If Hinduism appeals to us, we’ll become Hindu.

Namaste, that has all come out thanks to Hinduism in the first place. There was barely any spirituality being practiced in the West before Hinduism came to the West. There were indeed esoteric mystical cults but they few and far in between. Then when Hinduism came to the West it started of the Theosophy society, which had massive influence on spirituality and occultism. The founder of the Theosophy society Madame Blavatsky went to India and Tibet and there received the teachings of Hinduism and esoteric Buddhism and authored the Secret Doctrine. Then later she discoursed with the Mahatmas in India and composed the Mahatma letters. The Theosophy society lead to several off-shoots such Anthrosophy, the Golden Dawn and neo-paganism and other occult movement such as the Thule society in Germany. At this moment Hindu Gurus were flooding the West starting with Swami Vivekananda and then Swami Yogananda and the Hindu teachings were widely proliferated. Then in the 1960’s Hinduism went mainstream with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and their endorsement by the Beatles, leading to a second-wave of Hindu gurus flooding the West. This lead to massive proliferation of Yoga, meditation and Vedanta and various syncreticisms forming leading onto the new-age movement. Since then spirituality has been growing, but in a rather uncontrolled manner combining with everything from Christian gnosticism, Sufism and Kabbalh to ufology and conspiracy theories. This is only slightly improving today.

However, at the very core of this new-age spirituality is unmistakably Hinduism. Your average new age book will contain a description and a diagram of the Chakras, Yoga and meditation techniques, a description of the astral body and planes(physical, emotional, astral mental, causal, and spiritual) and a mention of higher self, spiritual evolution, reincarnation. This is absolutely Hinduism.

You are practicing Hinduism already without even realising it :smiley:

The problem is you are appropriating all our teachings, concepts and practices without actually acknowleding the source. This is a form of intellectual theft.

Krishna says in the Gita that if you take without giving back you are a thief and the universe will certainly take away from you what you have stolen.

I am really glad India has decided to patent the traditional knowledge of Hinduism. I am certainly disappointed in the West for blatant plagiarism.

Oh Surya, you certainly don’t think we aren’t giving credit to Hinduism do you? Of course we are. As I said, we are grateful and acknowledge what Hindus have shared. I believe we all know the source. We are not a collective group of intellectual thieves.

Here is the official stance of the spokesperson organization for Hindus in America to prove to you I am not alone in this view:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10115/1052860-109.stm

Yoga: stolen from the Hindus
Hinduism has lost control of its brand as yoga thrives, delinked from its essential religious character, bemoans ASEEM SHUKLA of the Hindu American Foundation
Sunday, April 25, 2010
Dean Rohrer / NewsartNearly 20 million people in the United States gather together routinely, fold their hands and utter the Hindu greeting of Namaste -- the divine in me bows to the same divine in you. Then they close their eyes and focus their minds with chants of "Om," the Hindu representation of the first and eternal vibration of creation.

Arrayed in linear patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as a mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures: Natarajaasana (Lord Shiva) or Hanumanasana (Lord Hanuman) among many others. They chant their assigned "mantra of the month," taking lines directly from the Vedas, Hinduism's holiest scripture. Welcome to the practice of yoga in today's Western world.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, agnostics and atheists they may be, but they partake in the spiritual heritage of a faith tradition with a vigor often unmatched even by this country's 2.5 million Hindu Americans. The Yoga Journal found that the industry generates more than $6 billion a year and continues on an incredible trajectory of popularity.

It would seem that yoga's mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of dedicated disciples seeking more from the font of their passion. Yet the reality is very different.

Hinduism is identified more with holy cows than Gomukhasana, the notoriously arduous twisting posture; with millions of warring gods rather than the unity of divinity in Hindu tradition -- that God may manifest and be worshiped in infinite ways; with colorful wandering ascetics rather than the spiritual inspiration of Patanjali, the 2nd-century B.C. commentator and composer of the Yoga Sutras that form the philosophical basis of Yoga practice today.

Why is yoga severed in America's collective consciousness from Hinduism?

Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, self-realization -- they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern, mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu origins.

It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and polytheism -- the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy in which they can take pride.

Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of crass commercialism.

The Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, under whose tutelage the Beatles steadied their minds and made sense of their insane fame, packaged the wonders of meditation as Transcendental Meditation just as an entrepreneur from here in Minneapolis applied the principles of Ayurveda to drive a commercial enterprise he coined as Aveda. TM and Aveda are trademarked brands -- a protection not available to the originator of their brand: Hinduism itself.

The Los Angeles Times recently chronicled this steady disembodying of yoga from Hinduism.

"Christ is my guru. Yoga is a spiritual discipline much like prayer, meditation and fasting [and] no one religion can claim ownership," said a vocal proponent of "Christian-themed" yoga practices. Some Jews practice Torah yoga, Kabbalah yoga and aleph bet yoga, and even some Muslims are joining the act. They are appropriating the collective wisdom of millenia of yogis without a whisper of acknowledgment of yoga's spiritual roots.

Not surprisingly, the most popular yoga publications are also in on the act. Once yoga was no longer intertwined with its Hindu roots, it became up for grabs and easy to sell. These journals abundantly refer to yoga as "ancient Indian," "Eastern" or "Sanskritic," but seem to assiduously avoid the term "Hindu" out of fear, we can only assume, that ascribing honestly the origins of their passion might spell disaster for what has become a lucrative commercial enterprise.

The American Yoga Association, on its website, completes this delinking of yoga from Hinduism: "The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries. ... The techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other world religions."

So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings, is now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd century B.C. These deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other religions may as well too!

Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this measure soon we will read about how karma, dharma and reincarnation -- the foundations of Hindu philosophy -- are only ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own.

The Hindu American Foundation which I helped found released a position paper on this issue earlier this year. It condemns yoga's appropriation but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood.

Yoga is identified only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient. Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility -- even help children with attention deficit disorder -- but will miss the mark on holistic healing and wellness.

All of this is not to contend, of course, that yoga is only for Hindus. Yoga is Hinduism's gift to humanity to follow, practice and experience. No one can ever be asked to leave their own religion or reject their own theologies or to convert to a pluralistic tradition such as Hinduism.

Yoga asks only that one follow the path of yoga for it will lead one to become a better Hindu, Christian, Jew or Muslim. Yoga, like its Hindu origins, does not offer ways to believe in God; it offers ways to know God.

But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane material world and put one on the path of self-realization -- that each individual is a spark of the divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths -- that their God awaits the arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate -- since yoga shows its own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers, regardless of affiliation.

Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of their spiritual heritage -- not sell it out to win more clients for the yoga studio down the street.

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36021]Oh Surya, you certainly don’t think we aren’t giving credit to Hinduism do you? Of course we are. As I said, we are grateful and acknowledge what Hindus have shared. I believe we all know the source. We are not a collective group of intellectual thieves.[/QUOTE]

Nah, you are not really giving credit to Hinduism. This is very clear to see from the official position on Yoga from the official bodies in the West. This is blatant intellectual theft. Western people went to India to learn Yoga from Hindu gurus, they come back and start their own Yoga organizations and then claim it is not Hindu.

There is no such thing as Christian Yoga, Jewish Yoga or Islamic Yoga. These terms are oxymoron. The practice of Yoga goes fundamentally against these religions in everyway. This is why the official bodies of Christianity, Judaism and Islam have ruled Yoga to be antithical to their religion.

The very word Yoga itself means the union of the soul with the divine consciousness - the eternal all pervasive self. The entire word itself contains all of Hinduism. This is exactly what all Hindu scripture teaches.

If you are practicing Yoga you are practicing Hinduism. Simple as that.

Hinduism is obviously superior because it is the only religion that has no history of violence against other religions.

.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure about that ? What about the persecutions of Christians in India,
a few years ago?

http://www.gfa.org/news/articles/after-two-years-full-horror-orissa-attacks-emerging-christians-still-under-siege/

Did not your newspapers write about it ?

Already covered that dear :wink:

This is not Hinduism. This is isolated incidents of violence done by people who are Hindu in reaction to Christian terrorism and fundamentalism.

Although I condemn all violence and see no justification at all for this kind of violence, I can see that Christians are bringing this upon themselves. How can they expect not to get some Hindus angry if they go around preying on vulnerable poor people in rural Indian villages and mass converting them by teaching them Hindus are evil, burning pictures of Hindu gods and goddesses and tramping over them, and telling them to stay away from all Hindus. The violence increased even more after Christian terrorists gunned down a Hindu guru in broad daylight in his own ashram, and injured the residents of the ashram.

The Hindu reaction is no different to how some people reacted after 9/11. If you are so concerned you should write a letter to your local Christian authority and ask them to stop spreading hate in India and stop their mass-conversation activity. Otherwise, angry Hindus can get very angry. I honestly feel for the innocent Christians in India who will feel the brunt of it.

I found this interview on CNN:India where a prominent Christian missionary is being grilled for spreading blatant anti-Hindu propoganda. The man is speechless.

I can really see things getting very very ugly if Christians continue this activity in India.

I watched several documentaries and read several articles yeserday and I am really disturbed by what seems to be bubbling up in India right now between Hindus and Christians because of Christian missionary activity and corrupt Christian government officials. We could see a massive Hindu uprising. The victims in this are going to be innocent Christians in India. Somebody needs to talk some sense into these Christian missionaries.

I found this interview on CNN:India where a prominent Christian missionary is being grilled for spreading blatant anti-Hindu propoganda. The man is speechless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8jm3...eature=related

I can really see things getting very very ugly if Christians continue this activity in India.

Dear Surya,

This CNN interview is propaganda through and through. The reason the missionary is speechless is because the interviewer never allowed him to talk. When he tried, he was interrupted. Bogus!

In addition, I found that the words that were posted during the interview regarding what the missionaries were preaching (against Hinduism) is no different than what you have been posting about Abrahamic religions. Can’t have it both ways.

Regarding Truth:
Truth does change. As we gather more data and revise our ‘theories’, truth as we knew it changes and is replaced with a newer truth. Think of it this way. Say you love someone and eventually marry. Over the years, for whatever reason, you grow apart and eventually divorce. When you married this person, the truth was you loved them. After many years of growing apart, you no longer have that love. Truth changes as perception changes. Another example: The truth at one time was butter is better than margarine. Then with more study and data, the new truth was margarine is better than butter. With additional data and study, the truth is neither is good, but butter coming from grass fed cows is better for you, but in limited amounts. Truth changes. The truth as I know it right now as I’m typing this is different from the truth when I finish. Each moment changes, we change. If we change, truth changes too. When you really look at truth, it is really based on perception. If a Zen Buddhist heard you say you know the truth, they’d smile and say,‘no you don’t’.

Namaste,

The CNN interview presents damning facts about what this author has written in the book and how they are both major clergy members. It then cites an independent report which shows how Christians have indeed been found to be spreading anti-Hindu propoganda.

You should honestly be more honest with yourself. I thought honesty was a Buddhist ethic? Apparently not.

I was a bit surprised by the truth comment. Are you respoding to what I said in the “truth” thread? I will have to give you my response then. It is not the truth changes, it is our perception of it, our theories on it, our beliefs that change. The truth remains forever the same. Eternal and still. If this were not true there would be no such thing as laws of nature. It would be impossible for there to be a universe, if every moment the laws changed. At the subatomic level even a slight divergence in the spin ratio of a particle would result in matter imploding on itself. Therefore, it is very clear there is an inviolable cosmic order that forever remains the same. We change, but it doesn’t.

Surya, oops! My comment about truth was actually taken from the thread ‘Propaganda’ not this one. After a while they all run together!

Regarding the CNN interview and your comment about Buddhist’s being honest:
My ‘bogus’ comment was aimed at you saying the missionary was speechless. He was speechless because the interviewer wouldn’t allow him to talk, or if he did it was edited. Propaganda perhaps? That’s not to say it didn’t happen, but the media is manipulating facts to further a cause. Again, propaganda. And what of my comment:

In addition, I found that the words that were posted during the interview regarding what the missionaries were preaching (against Hinduism) is no different than what you have been posting about Abrahamic religions. Can’t have it both ways.

           ???????????????

I don’t think the interview was edited by the channel itself, but by the person who put it up on youtube in order to make the inserts we see in it. This still does not change the fact that the author being interviewed has indeed said those things.