Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

Spirituality Religion
#183

I found this interview on CNN:India where a prominent Christian missionary is being grilled for spreading blatant anti-Hindu propoganda. The man is speechless.

I can really see things getting very very ugly if Christians continue this activity in India.

I watched several documentaries and read several articles yeserday and I am really disturbed by what seems to be bubbling up in India right now between Hindus and Christians because of Christian missionary activity and corrupt Christian government officials. We could see a massive Hindu uprising. The victims in this are going to be innocent Christians in India. Somebody needs to talk some sense into these Christian missionaries.

#184

I found this interview on CNN:India where a prominent Christian missionary is being grilled for spreading blatant anti-Hindu propoganda. The man is speechless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8jm3...eature=related

I can really see things getting very very ugly if Christians continue this activity in India.

Dear Surya,

This CNN interview is propaganda through and through. The reason the missionary is speechless is because the interviewer never allowed him to talk. When he tried, he was interrupted. Bogus!

In addition, I found that the words that were posted during the interview regarding what the missionaries were preaching (against Hinduism) is no different than what you have been posting about Abrahamic religions. Can’t have it both ways.

Regarding Truth:
Truth does change. As we gather more data and revise our ‘theories’, truth as we knew it changes and is replaced with a newer truth. Think of it this way. Say you love someone and eventually marry. Over the years, for whatever reason, you grow apart and eventually divorce. When you married this person, the truth was you loved them. After many years of growing apart, you no longer have that love. Truth changes as perception changes. Another example: The truth at one time was butter is better than margarine. Then with more study and data, the new truth was margarine is better than butter. With additional data and study, the truth is neither is good, but butter coming from grass fed cows is better for you, but in limited amounts. Truth changes. The truth as I know it right now as I’m typing this is different from the truth when I finish. Each moment changes, we change. If we change, truth changes too. When you really look at truth, it is really based on perception. If a Zen Buddhist heard you say you know the truth, they’d smile and say,‘no you don’t’.

#185

Namaste,

The CNN interview presents damning facts about what this author has written in the book and how they are both major clergy members. It then cites an independent report which shows how Christians have indeed been found to be spreading anti-Hindu propoganda.

You should honestly be more honest with yourself. I thought honesty was a Buddhist ethic? Apparently not.

#186

I was a bit surprised by the truth comment. Are you respoding to what I said in the “truth” thread? I will have to give you my response then. It is not the truth changes, it is our perception of it, our theories on it, our beliefs that change. The truth remains forever the same. Eternal and still. If this were not true there would be no such thing as laws of nature. It would be impossible for there to be a universe, if every moment the laws changed. At the subatomic level even a slight divergence in the spin ratio of a particle would result in matter imploding on itself. Therefore, it is very clear there is an inviolable cosmic order that forever remains the same. We change, but it doesn’t.

#187

Surya, oops! My comment about truth was actually taken from the thread ‘Propaganda’ not this one. After a while they all run together!

Regarding the CNN interview and your comment about Buddhist’s being honest:
My ‘bogus’ comment was aimed at you saying the missionary was speechless. He was speechless because the interviewer wouldn’t allow him to talk, or if he did it was edited. Propaganda perhaps? That’s not to say it didn’t happen, but the media is manipulating facts to further a cause. Again, propaganda. And what of my comment:

In addition, I found that the words that were posted during the interview regarding what the missionaries were preaching (against Hinduism) is no different than what you have been posting about Abrahamic religions. Can’t have it both ways.

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#188

I don’t think the interview was edited by the channel itself, but by the person who put it up on youtube in order to make the inserts we see in it. This still does not change the fact that the author being interviewed has indeed said those things.

#189

…mu…

#190

Surya, this is a quote from you showing the history of Abrahamic violence:

Inquisitions, crusades, jihads, witch burning have all been ordained by highest religious authorities.

What you are doing here is using ‘short term thinking’ to predict a future outcome. So you are saying, Abrahamic religions have used violence in the past. Therefore, they will continue to use violence. Logically, your argument doesn’t hold. Another example: I rode the roller coaster yesterday and it was great. I rode it again today and it was great. When I ride it tomorrow, can I assume it will be great? There are too many factors that play into how you will enjoy the ride tomorrow. There might be a screaming child next to you, crying, and you did not have a great time, the 3rd time, because of that. So there is a logical gap.

I think this goes to your style of argument. You are using short term logic to prove a point that cannot be predicted.

#191

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36074]I found this interview on CNN:India where a prominent Christian missionary is being grilled for spreading blatant anti-Hindu propoganda. The man is speechless.

I can really see things getting very very ugly if Christians continue this activity in India.

I watched several documentaries and read several articles yeserday and I am really disturbed by what seems to be bubbling up in India right now between Hindus and Christians because of Christian missionary activity and corrupt Christian government officials. We could see a massive Hindu uprising. The victims in this are going to be innocent Christians in India. Somebody needs to talk some sense into these Christian missionaries

.[/QUOTE]

So the dead and tortured are guilty for their sufferings. Quite an argument.

#192

Well, I think all “official religions” have their sins and even crimes.In my opinion, it is better to build bridges betwen religions -like Yogannada tries to do-than to accuse each other of evil doing.

This includes Hinduism, who is not free of sins. What about the assasination of Mahatma Gandhi by a Hindu fundamentalist ?

It is better to remember that God is the Father of us all, i.e. we are all brothers and sisters.

I think that this percept that God is the Father of us all is valid in any religion.

#193

Religions are different roads converging upon the same point. What does it matter that we take different roads so long as we reach the same goal ?

                   Mahatma Gandhi
#194

Belief in one God is the corner-stone of all religions. But I do not foresee
a time when there would be only one religion on earth in practice. In theory,
since there is one God, there can be only one religion. But in practice, no
two persons I have known have had the same identical conception of God.
Therefore, there will perhaps always be different religions answering to different
temperaments and climatic conditions.

        Mahatma Gandhi
#195

I believe in the fundamental truth of all great religions of the world.
I believe that they are all God-given and I believe that they were
necessary for the people to whom these religions were revealed.
And I believe that if only could all of us read the scriptures of the
different faiths from the standpoint of the followere of these faiths,
we should find that they were at the bottom all one and were all
helpful to one another.

Mahatma Gandhi

#196

Halejualula Brotha Gandhi.

I wonder what he’s up to nowadays?

I’ve just remembered again that the christianity is a LOT OF CODE.

From which much has been taken away by those of lead.

Stripped of its heart it’s almost dead.

Put the modes of knowledge back in

And it’s alive and kicking again.

#197

[QUOTE=oak333;36156]So the dead and tortured are guilty for their sufferings. Quite an argument.[/QUOTE]

Namaste,

I do not believe I made that argument that the dead and torured are guilty for thier suffering. I believe I said that I genuinely felt for the innocent people who are going to feel the brunt of the reaction by angry Hindus. I do not condone such violence, but I can see how angry the Hindus are and the Christian missionary and terrorist activity in India is not helping the situation at all.

I am genuinely quite scared for what could happen in India if this religious violence continues. There are tens of million members of the Hindu nationalist group in India. They have already shown how violent they can get in previous communal violence. I hate to think what would happen if they blew their lid.

#198

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35897]Namaste,

I think you have a losing battle for sure now. You now admit the bible does indeed contain these really violent and barbaric things, but you are too politically correct to call it primitive, barbaric and stupid.

However, as I have no such hang up, I can clearly see it for what it is. Anything which commands mass murder, infanticide and raping of women is abominable. Thus I have proven my point that the Abrahamic religions are primitive, barbaric and stupid and Hinduism is a superior religion.

The Abrahamic religions are not the religions of a noble or enlightened people like the dharmic religions, but religions founded by savages that say savage things.[/QUOTE]

This has nothing to do with political correctness. If some one is stupid I would call them as such. Rather this is about honestly living the faith you believe with full understanding of what that means. Reading the Bible without proper context does not lend a correct interpretation. You have stated the same about reading Hindu texts. I would never assume to be an authority on anything unless I had spent countless ( more than 30)years studying, practicing and observing it. Can you say you have done that with Christianity as a practicing Hindu?
The odd thing is there is no battle here with me, and the only battle here is the one in your mind. (you of course may state that this is a debate and that that I should defend my point. or even that I should not assume that this is the case, but I really don’t care)
As for proving my point. Nope! Don’t need to. My goal here is not to convert, rather to point out that your over-generalized statements about all Christians are wrong. Not to prove a point but to inform others that not all Christians are as violent and evil as you make them out to be.
So since there is no arguement/battle no one can lose. My life and the life of those within the community of believers in which I live and practice with are living and definate proof of non-violence and tolerance within the Christian family. That is the proof. Not historical texts, not overly dramatized you tube videos or your interpretation of both (as stated above you have no standing since you have not lived it)
Never in any post have I been intolerant of another persons belief or stated their religions are barbaric or stupid. As stated in a previous post, it is not I/you who determines who is right or wrong in what they believe. Only God/ higher being/ those fully enlightened can determine that. (you are none of these) I am human with flaws just like you.
I challange you to seek out Christians (not those of a very conservative stance as they will feed your appetite for debate/argument and not allow you true growth) but those who are of a more liberal stance. You may be surprised at their tolerance, love and acceptance of those from other religions.
Namaste

#199

Namaste TeeA,

You see I don’t really understand what you think constitutes a definition of a religion. Is it defined by its current adherants or by its scriptures and history? Yes, sure there are many tolerant, loving and liberal Christians, but does take away from the fact that they accept scriptures like the OT that contains unmitigated evil and scriptures like the NT which glorifies poverty, weakness, naivity and contains exclusivist doctrines which condemn everybody but the chosen ones. It is easy to see from the history of Christianity that it has indeed been responsible for terrible and endless violence and oppression.

This is why I reject this religion. Not simply because I am Hindu, but as an intelligent and sensible person. I can clearly see this is a religion of a primitive man. Then when I look at my religion I see it is a religion is enlightened sages. I thus can clearly see my religion is superior.

This debate was triggered by statements that said all religions were equal, and this is why I have aggressively opposed this statement and showed why they are not equal and why some are more superior to others.

#200

What you are doing here is using ‘short term thinking’ to predict a future outcome. So you are saying, Abrahamic religions have used violence in the past. Therefore, they will continue to use violence. Logically, your argument doesn’t hold. Another example: I rode the roller coaster yesterday and it was great. I rode it again today and it was great. When I ride it tomorrow, can I assume it will be great? There are too many factors that play into how you will enjoy the ride tomorrow. There might be a screaming child next to you, crying, and you did not have a great time, the 3rd time, because of that. So there is a logical gap.

I think this goes to your style of argument. You are using short term logic to prove a point that cannot be predicted.

Namaste,

The fact remains that the doctrines that produced the violence are still present, and they still continue to produce violence. In India, there is a terrorist attack everyday and innocent Indian people, mainly Hindu, die. These attacks are done by largely Muslim terrorists, who are merely following what their Quran itself says, “Kill the infidels” There is massive Christian fundamentalist activity that goes on where Christian missionaries go around Indian villages telling them they are sinners, and must save themselves by converting to Christianity.

Is it only in India? No, it is in most parts of the world that this is still going on. The examples of peaceful, compassionate and tolerant Muslims and Christians you give are only a small minority. The majority are not tolerant, peaceful and compassionate.

As long as those doctrines remain in the religions this situation will not change. I think we need to stop pretending they are peaceful religions, when the facts cry out otherwise. Now either these religions reform or we reject them enmasse. But I have a logical problem with how they can reform at all, because they are simply doing what their religious scripture tells them to. If you get rid of the religious scripture, what remains?

#201

I thought I would put this in the relevant thread.

I spent an entire day today reading the Gospel of Matthew and my respect for Jesus has really plummeted. I have read the stories of many great Yogis, masters, and if Jesus is going to be counted amongst them, then I have never come across as one as arrogant as Jesus. He constantly proclaims that he is the ONE, goes around place to place collecting people to worship him, to abandon all their possessions and to renounce their family and friends, so they can worship him alone, and all they get in return is nothing more than faith and cryptic parables. He appoints himself as the right-hand man of god and even arrogantly declares that he will be judging people. To his disciples he gives a special concession of having their own thrones so they can judge the 12 tribes of Israel. He declares that he will return and by then he wants his name to be spread all over the Earth. He shows his disciples the great miracles he can do and even shows them a vision where god confirms he is the ONE.

If this really is not a fictional storyand Jesus really did all these things, then he was a man who had developed siddhis, went astray and started to gather personal fame for himself by showing people his siddhis and then developed these delusions of granduer that he is the ONE. There are countless of such tantriks in India who after developing some powers go out of control. This is one of the reasons why the Yogasutras says that one should not be tempted by the lure of siddhis.

#202

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36666]I thought I would put this in the relevant thread.

I spent an entire day today reading the Gospel of Matthew and my respect for Jesus has really plummeted. I have read the stories of many great Yogis, masters, and if Jesus is going to be counted amongst them, then I have never come across as one as arrogant as Jesus. He constantly proclaims that he is the ONE, goes around place to place collecting people to worship him, to abandon all their possessions and to renounce their family and friends, so they can worship him alone, and all they get in return is nothing more than faith and cryptic parables. He appoints himself as the right-hand man of god and even arrogantly declares that he will be judging people. To his disciples he gives a special concession of having their own thrones so they can judge the 12 tribes of Israel. He declares that he will return and by then he wants his name to be spread all over the Earth. He shows his disciples the great miracles he can do and even shows them a vision where god confirms he is the ONE.

If this really is not a fictional storyand Jesus really did all these things, then he was a man who had developed siddhis, went astray and started to gather personal fame for himself by showing people his siddhis and then developed these delusions of granduer that he is the ONE. There are countless of such tantriks in India who after developing some powers go out of control. This is one of the reasons why the Yogasutras says that one should not be tempted by the lure of siddhis.[/QUOTE]

Let us take Padre Pio and his miracles:

http://www.padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/Miracles.htm

Padre Pio prayed Lord Jesus Christ. Among other things, he had the stigmata
for decades. Stigmata are the signs of the wounds of Jesus Christ.

Another Christian saint practised the Jesus Prayer. Actually there were many
Christian saints practising Jesus prayer.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/ignaty_jesus.aspx

Incorruptible bodies of the Christian saints, already posted before:

There are literally thousands and thousands of examples of Christiian saints or Christian healers. Have you ever heard of John of God from Brazil ?

Babaji sent Yogananda to the West to preach the unity of all religions.
Yogananda wrote a monumental opera about Jesus Christ.

Mahataam Gandhi wrote about the unity of all religions (posted before).

Actually who are you :

  1. to negate the existence and divinity of Jesus Christ

2 to negate the Christian saints. They prayed and followed the teachings
of Jesus Christ, that is why they became saints.

  1. to negate the Indian saint Babaji, who preaches the unity of all religions,
    beyond dogmas.

  2. to negate Yogananda, who preaches the teachings of Babaji.

  3. to negate Mahatma Gandhi, a great Indian soul, the founder of the great
    country named India.

etc etc etc

I remember a poem about evil by Lermontov, a great Russian poet:

“I am the spirit who negates everything.”