Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35986]I never said any race of people were more superior than others. There is only one race: the human race.

I already answered your question. The Pepsi example was merely to illustrate that saying x is superior than y is not in itself intolerant.[/QUOTE]

Actually you did not answer my question, but that’s OK.

By definition intolerance is not defined as a personal preference like choosing Coke over Pepsi it is however this

Intolerance

  1. Lack of toleration; unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect contrary opinions or beliefs, persons of different races or backgrounds, etc.
  2. Incapacity or indisposition to bear or endure: intolerance to heat.
  3. Abnormal sensitivity or allergy to a food, drug, etc.
  4. An intolerant act.

And by what you have been posting it may be Religious intolerance but to be honest I am not certain. It is most certainly elitist but I am not sure it is Intolerance, but it might be and by the following it likely is

Forms of Religious Intolerance:

  • Inter-faith intolerance (e.g. a Hindu - Christian conflict)
  • Intra-faith intolerance (e.g. Shi’ite vs. Sunni Muslims)
  • Intolerance by from a faith group against a secular group (e.g. Christian fundamentalists vs. Agnostics, Atheists, Humanists, Homosexuals
    Transsexuals, loving, committed same-sex couples who wish to marry, etc.)
    Intolerance by a secular group against a religious group. (e.g. feminists vs. some organized religions)

Either way it is not the same as a personal preference based on a taste of a soda such as Pepsi or Coke

Tolerance does not mean agreement. I am tolerant in that I will let you believe and practice your religion and still be your best friend. That does not mean I agree with you. If you agreed to debate with me. Trust me, I would leave no stone unturned in demolishing your religion particle by particle :smiley:

This is exactly how it was done in Hindu India. Every school existed in India from hedonism, atheism, satanism, nihilism, relativism, materialism, realism, idealism, dualism, non dualism, mysticism and various grades in between, and nobody ever got persecuted. Everybody had freedom to believe whatever they wanted. However, when it came to formal debates, they were ruthless and lethal. If you could not demonstrate a single one of your points with valid evidence you would lose instantly.

So to summarize. I am tolerant in that I accept your right to believe and practice what you want. But if you make the mistake of debating with me, I will be very ruthless. I assure you of that. You already have had a taste of it. The fact of the matter is your religion does not stand up to reason.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35990]
This needs to be done by actual worldwide formal debates between religions. The winning religion becomes the religion of the world.[/QUOTE]

Well that’s scary… we shall force everyone to ‘believe’ a certain way? No thank you! lol

In order to have order, chaos must also exist.

[QUOTE=CkarmaKat;35994]Well that’s scary… we shall force everyone to ‘believe’ a certain way? No thank you! lol

In order to have order, chaos must also exist.[/QUOTE]

So, when Hinduism takes over the world can I choose which caste I can belong to? Is this done by committee? I place dibs on one of the funner upper castes with lots of money and privileges. After seeing ‘Slumdog Millionaire’ I don’t think I can make it as an untouchable. I have a low smell tolerance.

No, not believe, but accept. Accept facts.

All of the following are facts

  1. The soul body does exist
  2. Reincarnation and karma does exist
  3. Kundalini, chakras and Prana does in fact exist
  4. Siddhis do in fact exist
  5. The various planes of reality astral, causal and mental do in fact exist
  6. The absolute reality which is pure existence, consciousness and bliss exists
  7. Yoga and meditation do in fact work
  8. Hindu systems of economics do in fact produce sustainable economies

All of the above can be backed up with ample scientific evidence. There is so much scientific evidence in fact, that it is disgraceful that the mainstream scientific community still have not accepted it. I think part of the reason they have not is because of the sheer politics. It means the end of the Abrahamic religions.

All of these tenets need to be accepted so that we can transform this world into a spiritual society.

We do not want chaos. We want order.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35990]Namaste,

I think some people on this forum need to realise, and I am sure those who are impartial and can see merit in what I am saying already have realised, that I want exactly the same thing that everybody else wants. That is peace, harmony and prosperity for this planet. The difference is I am being real about it, and the others on this forum are not.[/QUOTE]

The entire world coming together to practice Hinduism is not ‘being real about’ anything.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35990]They are pretending that there already is peace, harmony and prosperity and nothing needs to be changed other than our belief that we should all just coexist with one another. What they do not realise opposites never can coexist with one another. Fire cannot coexist with water and light cannot coexist with darkness. It is not coexistence we need to bring peace, harmony and prosperity to this planet. It is resolution. Those differences that separate us need to fight it out and resolve themselves and the synthesis that remains will take us further and there will be progress.[/QUOTE]

If the world was meant to be that way… it would be. The world is already perfect within it’s own imperfection and I accept that.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35996]
We do not want chaos. We want order.[/QUOTE]

One does not exist without the other.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35993]Tolerance does not mean agreement. I am tolerant in that I will let you believe and practice your religion and still be your best friend. That does not mean I agree with you. If you agreed to debate with me. Trust me, I would leave no stone unturned in demolishing your religion particle by particle :smiley:

This is exactly how it was done in Hindu India. Every school existed in India from hedonism, atheism, satanism, nihilism, relativism, materialism, realism, idealism, dualism, non dualism, mysticism and various grades in between, and nobody ever got persecuted. Everybody had freedom to believe whatever they wanted. However, when it came to formal debates, they were ruthless and lethal. If you could not demonstrate a single one of your points with valid evidence you would lose instantly.

So to summarize. I am tolerant in that I accept your right to believe and practice what you want. But if you make the mistake of debating with me, I will be very ruthless. I assure you of that. You already have had a taste of it. The fact of the matter is your religion does not stand up to reason.[/QUOTE]

What I find interesting, and this is not the first time I have noticed this, in some of your responses you are justifying your stance based on things that are not there. Like in my last post…

And although you are correct in saying tolerance does not mean agreement, nowhere in the definition I posted does it say anything about agreement.

This I find fascinating.

You appear to be responding, at times, in ways that help support your position whether or not what you?re responding to has actually been said.

You appear to be following a set of rules that you put down in order to strengthen your position and not allowing anyone to deviate from that unless it suits you.

You ask for examples between the years 7000BCE to 1000AD and when a cast system is mentioned you say we no longer have one. This then would be using a refutation that is outside of the parameters that you set. And if then someone gives you an example you retreat to the years you previously set up as parameters of the discussion.

At this point I would say you might be tolerant up to a certain point and that point being just as long as nothing is mentioned and someone from another religion keeps silent about it in your presence.

Like I said you are proving a point; just I don’t think it is the one you are intending to prove.

The entire world coming together to practice Hinduism is not ‘being real about’ anything.

I think you need to understand practicing Hinduism is nothing more than spirituality. That is that the entire world practices spirituality by practicing self-development, Yoga, meditation and living in harmony with nature and the animals. Is that such a bad thing?
It is very interesting you oppose this.

If the world was meant to be that way… it would be. The world is already perfect within it’s own imperfection and I accept that.

The world is not meant to be any way, it is will be as we want it to be. If we want to live in a violent, disharmonious and oppresive world then it will be so. If we want to live in a peace, harmonious and prosperous world then it will be so. Again I find it interesting that you oppose the latter.

One does not exist without the other.

Nope, the opposite of order is not disorder. As disorder is simply a negation of order. There has to be order in the first place for there to be dis+order. Likewise, the opposite of perfection is not imperfect. As imperfection is simply the negation of perfection.

I will have to say, again, however, it is interesting you actually enjoy chaos? I think you have it too good. If you were living in war torn Iraq right now you would never ask for chaos over order.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36003]I think you need to understand practicing Hinduism is nothing more than spirituality. That is that the entire world practices spirituality by practicing self-development, Yoga, meditation and living in harmony with nature and the animals. Is that such a bad thing?
[/QUOTE]

It is not a bad thing at all, I’m just not understanding why you feel have to put a label and doctrine to it and force everyone to believe. People will believe how they feel they believe - there is no way to [B]force [/B]belief upon anyone other than brainwashing.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36003]
The world is not meant to be any way, it is will be as we want it to be. If we want to live in a violent, disharmonious and oppresive world then it will be so. If we want to live in a peace, harmonious and prosperous world then it will be so. Again I find it interesting that you oppose the latter.
[/QUOTE]

If it is to be as we want it, then it appears that this is what we want collectively.

I do not oppose the latter, I simply accept the world for what it is.

I think you need to understand practicing Hinduism is nothing more than spirituality. That is that the entire world practices spirituality by practicing self-development, Yoga, meditation and living in harmony with nature and the animals. Is that such a bad thing?
It is very interesting you oppose this.

I can see people doing yoga, meditating, living in harmony and practicing spirituality in many forms of religion, not only Hindu.

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36006]I can see people doing yoga, meditating, living in harmony and practicing spirituality in many forms of religion, not only Hindu.[/QUOTE]

This is very true. In fact, I can see people doing these things even more effectively when no religion or doctrines are involved. You do not need religion in order to be spiritual. I have met many spiritual people who are not indoctrinated in any ‘ism’ at all.

And what is spirituality then? What do you think of when you think of spirituality or what do you see when you go to the mind body section in a bookstore? Yoga, meditation, chakras, higher self, prana, reincarnation, spiritual evolution, crystals, ayurveda, karma, ascended masters, astral planes and bodies, non dualism etc

All of this is Hinduism and has come from Hinduism. This is exactly what our religion teaches and what every Hindu has known for thousands of years. So of course I am going to insist you use the label Hinduism. In fact if you want to be more authenetic please use the word Santana Dharma(Eternal way)

Secondly, it is not a matter of belief but acceptance of facts. I hate that word “belief” Nobody should believe in anything. They should accept what is true and reject what is false.

If it is to be as we want it, then it appears that this is what we want collectively.

I do not oppose the latter, I simply accept the world for what it is.

I accept the world for what it is whilst at the time knowing that it doesn’t have to be like this. I do not want to live in a world ravaged by war, inequality, oppression, crime and materialism. Who does?

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36006]I can see people doing yoga, meditating, living in harmony and practicing spirituality in many forms of religion, not only Hindu.[/QUOTE]

Yep, and that is Hinduism.

Your problem is you are not acknowleding the source. No other religion other than the dharmic family of religions teach as their main teaching yoga, meditation and spirituality. Of those the source of the dharma family emphasies them the most and is the original religion that taught this.

Abrahamic religions teach the absolute opposite of spirituality.

Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices, including meditation, prayer and contemplation, are intended to develop an individual’s inner life; such practices often lead to an experience of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm.[3] Spirituality is often experienced as a source of inspiration or orientation in life.[4] It can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world.

There are many books in the “spirituality” isle of the bookstore dealing with Native American spirituality and Christianity. Not just Hindu influenced books. In reading the definition, this would encompass any type of religious group and their books dealing with discovery of their essence or being.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36011]Yep, and that is Hinduism.

Your problem is you are not acknowleding the source. No other religion other than the dharmic family of religions teach as their main teaching yoga, meditation and spirituality. Of those the source of the dharma family emphasies them the most and is the original religion that taught this.

Abrahamic religions teach the absolute opposite of spirituality.[/QUOTE]

I can acknowledge the source all I want, and have. Reality is people can and do live happy and harmonious lives, doing yoga, meditating without being labeled Hindu. As repeated often, we are truly grateful for all that Hinduism has given and shared. Again, to my point, we each have our own path to follow. If Hinduism appeals to us, we’ll become Hindu.

Namaste, that has all come out thanks to Hinduism in the first place. There was barely any spirituality being practiced in the West before Hinduism came to the West. There were indeed esoteric mystical cults but they few and far in between. Then when Hinduism came to the West it started of the Theosophy society, which had massive influence on spirituality and occultism. The founder of the Theosophy society Madame Blavatsky went to India and Tibet and there received the teachings of Hinduism and esoteric Buddhism and authored the Secret Doctrine. Then later she discoursed with the Mahatmas in India and composed the Mahatma letters. The Theosophy society lead to several off-shoots such Anthrosophy, the Golden Dawn and neo-paganism and other occult movement such as the Thule society in Germany. At this moment Hindu Gurus were flooding the West starting with Swami Vivekananda and then Swami Yogananda and the Hindu teachings were widely proliferated. Then in the 1960’s Hinduism went mainstream with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and their endorsement by the Beatles, leading to a second-wave of Hindu gurus flooding the West. This lead to massive proliferation of Yoga, meditation and Vedanta and various syncreticisms forming leading onto the new-age movement. Since then spirituality has been growing, but in a rather uncontrolled manner combining with everything from Christian gnosticism, Sufism and Kabbalh to ufology and conspiracy theories. This is only slightly improving today.

However, at the very core of this new-age spirituality is unmistakably Hinduism. Your average new age book will contain a description and a diagram of the Chakras, Yoga and meditation techniques, a description of the astral body and planes(physical, emotional, astral mental, causal, and spiritual) and a mention of higher self, spiritual evolution, reincarnation. This is absolutely Hinduism.

You are practicing Hinduism already without even realising it :smiley:

The problem is you are appropriating all our teachings, concepts and practices without actually acknowleding the source. This is a form of intellectual theft.

Krishna says in the Gita that if you take without giving back you are a thief and the universe will certainly take away from you what you have stolen.

I am really glad India has decided to patent the traditional knowledge of Hinduism. I am certainly disappointed in the West for blatant plagiarism.

Oh Surya, you certainly don’t think we aren’t giving credit to Hinduism do you? Of course we are. As I said, we are grateful and acknowledge what Hindus have shared. I believe we all know the source. We are not a collective group of intellectual thieves.

Here is the official stance of the spokesperson organization for Hindus in America to prove to you I am not alone in this view:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10115/1052860-109.stm

Yoga: stolen from the Hindus
Hinduism has lost control of its brand as yoga thrives, delinked from its essential religious character, bemoans ASEEM SHUKLA of the Hindu American Foundation
Sunday, April 25, 2010
Dean Rohrer / NewsartNearly 20 million people in the United States gather together routinely, fold their hands and utter the Hindu greeting of Namaste -- the divine in me bows to the same divine in you. Then they close their eyes and focus their minds with chants of "Om," the Hindu representation of the first and eternal vibration of creation.

Arrayed in linear patterns, they stretch, bend, contort and control their respirations as a mentor calls out names of Hindu divinity linked to various postures: Natarajaasana (Lord Shiva) or Hanumanasana (Lord Hanuman) among many others. They chant their assigned "mantra of the month," taking lines directly from the Vedas, Hinduism's holiest scripture. Welcome to the practice of yoga in today's Western world.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, agnostics and atheists they may be, but they partake in the spiritual heritage of a faith tradition with a vigor often unmatched even by this country's 2.5 million Hindu Americans. The Yoga Journal found that the industry generates more than $6 billion a year and continues on an incredible trajectory of popularity.

It would seem that yoga's mother tradition, Hinduism, would be shining in the brilliant glow of dedicated disciples seeking more from the font of their passion. Yet the reality is very different.

Hinduism is identified more with holy cows than Gomukhasana, the notoriously arduous twisting posture; with millions of warring gods rather than the unity of divinity in Hindu tradition -- that God may manifest and be worshiped in infinite ways; with colorful wandering ascetics rather than the spiritual inspiration of Patanjali, the 2nd-century B.C. commentator and composer of the Yoga Sutras that form the philosophical basis of Yoga practice today.

Why is yoga severed in America's collective consciousness from Hinduism?

Yoga, meditation, ayurvedic natural healing, self-realization -- they are today's syntax for New Age, Eastern, mystical, even Buddhist, but nary an appreciation of their Hindu origins.

It is not surprising, then, that Hindu schoolchildren complain that Hinduism is conflated only with caste, cows, exoticism and polytheism -- the salutary contributions and philosophical underpinnings lost and ignored. The severance of yoga from Hinduism disenfranchises millions of Hindu Americans from their spiritual heritage and a legacy in which they can take pride.

Hinduism, as a faith tradition, stands at this pass a victim of overt intellectual property theft, absence of trademark protections and the facile complicity of generations of Hindu yogis, gurus, swamis and others that offered up a religion's spiritual wealth at the altar of crass commercialism.

The Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, under whose tutelage the Beatles steadied their minds and made sense of their insane fame, packaged the wonders of meditation as Transcendental Meditation just as an entrepreneur from here in Minneapolis applied the principles of Ayurveda to drive a commercial enterprise he coined as Aveda. TM and Aveda are trademarked brands -- a protection not available to the originator of their brand: Hinduism itself.

The Los Angeles Times recently chronicled this steady disembodying of yoga from Hinduism.

"Christ is my guru. Yoga is a spiritual discipline much like prayer, meditation and fasting [and] no one religion can claim ownership," said a vocal proponent of "Christian-themed" yoga practices. Some Jews practice Torah yoga, Kabbalah yoga and aleph bet yoga, and even some Muslims are joining the act. They are appropriating the collective wisdom of millenia of yogis without a whisper of acknowledgment of yoga's spiritual roots.

Not surprisingly, the most popular yoga publications are also in on the act. Once yoga was no longer intertwined with its Hindu roots, it became up for grabs and easy to sell. These journals abundantly refer to yoga as "ancient Indian," "Eastern" or "Sanskritic," but seem to assiduously avoid the term "Hindu" out of fear, we can only assume, that ascribing honestly the origins of their passion might spell disaster for what has become a lucrative commercial enterprise.

The American Yoga Association, on its website, completes this delinking of yoga from Hinduism: "The common belief that Yoga derives from Hinduism is a misconception. Yoga actually predates Hinduism by many centuries. ... The techniques of Yoga have been adopted by Hinduism as well as by other world religions."

So Hinduism, the religion that has no known origins or beginnings, is now younger than yoga? What a ludicrous contention when the Yoga Sutras weren't even composed until the 2nd century B.C. These deniers seem to posit that Hinduism appropriated yoga so other religions may as well too!

Hindus can only sadly shake their heads, as by this measure soon we will read about how karma, dharma and reincarnation -- the foundations of Hindu philosophy -- are only ancient precepts that early Hindus of some era made their own.

The Hindu American Foundation which I helped found released a position paper on this issue earlier this year. It condemns yoga's appropriation but also argues that yoga today is wholly misunderstood.

Yoga is identified only with Hatha Yoga, the aspect of yoga focused on postures and breathing techniques. But this is only one part of the practice of Raja Yoga that is actually an eightfold path designed to lead the practitioner to moksha, or salvation. Indeed, yogis believe that to focus on the physicality of yoga without the spirituality is utterly rudimentary and deficient. Sure, practicing postures alone with a focus on breathing techniques will quiet the mind, tone the body, increase flexibility -- even help children with attention deficit disorder -- but will miss the mark on holistic healing and wellness.

All of this is not to contend, of course, that yoga is only for Hindus. Yoga is Hinduism's gift to humanity to follow, practice and experience. No one can ever be asked to leave their own religion or reject their own theologies or to convert to a pluralistic tradition such as Hinduism.

Yoga asks only that one follow the path of yoga for it will lead one to become a better Hindu, Christian, Jew or Muslim. Yoga, like its Hindu origins, does not offer ways to believe in God; it offers ways to know God.

But be forewarned. Yogis say that the dedicated practice of yoga will subdue the restless mind, lessen one's cravings for the mundane material world and put one on the path of self-realization -- that each individual is a spark of the divine. Expect conflicts if you are sold on the exclusivist claims of Abrahamic faiths -- that their God awaits the arrival of only His chosen few at heaven's gate -- since yoga shows its own path to spiritual enlightenment to all seekers, regardless of affiliation.

Hindus must take back yoga and reclaim the intellectual property of their spiritual heritage -- not sell it out to win more clients for the yoga studio down the street.

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;36021]Oh Surya, you certainly don’t think we aren’t giving credit to Hinduism do you? Of course we are. As I said, we are grateful and acknowledge what Hindus have shared. I believe we all know the source. We are not a collective group of intellectual thieves.[/QUOTE]

Nah, you are not really giving credit to Hinduism. This is very clear to see from the official position on Yoga from the official bodies in the West. This is blatant intellectual theft. Western people went to India to learn Yoga from Hindu gurus, they come back and start their own Yoga organizations and then claim it is not Hindu.

There is no such thing as Christian Yoga, Jewish Yoga or Islamic Yoga. These terms are oxymoron. The practice of Yoga goes fundamentally against these religions in everyway. This is why the official bodies of Christianity, Judaism and Islam have ruled Yoga to be antithical to their religion.

The very word Yoga itself means the union of the soul with the divine consciousness - the eternal all pervasive self. The entire word itself contains all of Hinduism. This is exactly what all Hindu scripture teaches.

If you are practicing Yoga you are practicing Hinduism. Simple as that.