SD, you’re quoting things but taking them out of context. You seem offended when Asuri does the same thing. Can you see then how it frustrates people when you do this to them?
I am not offended. Like I said, I invite criticism of my religion. However, it has to be valid criticism. I am citing from authentic translations of the Bible, which contain these things. Asuri is citing from inauthentic translations of the Vedas done in the late 19th century, based on now debunked theories of Aryan race myths. These translations were contorversial from the start. They were challenged by Sanskrit scholars and even by Western intellectuals.
[quote=surya deva;36887]namaste,
these are not authentic translations of the vedas. So they do not affect me in the slightest. These translations are done by european indologists and all date back to the late 19th century, when sanskrit studies was in its infacy. These translations are based on aryan invasion theory, the idea that nomadic barbarian people from central asia invaded the indian subcontinent, which is now thorougly debunked. They do not use the proper sanskrit method to translate them, but use their own method based on looking at what the words mean in other indo-european languages, rather what they meant in sanskrit dictionaries. These translations are not useful to anybody, because they read like gibberish. Kind of obvious as the translators had poor grasp of sanskrit.
I am citing from authentic translations of the bible and quran. So you also need to cite from authentic translations of the vedas. Otherwise i will simply ignore it.[/quote]
LOL :lol:
[QUOTE=Alix;36889]SD, you’re quoting things but taking them out of context. You seem offended when Asuri does the same thing. Can you see then how it frustrates people when you do this to them? [/QUOTE]
I haven’t taken anything out of context, Alix. In fact the hymns I quoted illustrate the context of the different Vedas. Rig Veda consists of hundreds, if not thousands of hymns to various gods, mostly Indra and Agni. Yajur Veda consists of prayers used at sacrificial offerings. Sama Veda, which I did not quote from, is prayers used at Soma offerings. Atharva Veda is hundreds of “charms” and incantations for all kinds of purposes, including gambling. Atharva Veda also contains a little metaphysical, cosmologincal, content.
Rig Veda consists of hundreds, if not thousands of hymns to various gods, mostly Indra and Agni. Yajur Veda consists of prayers used at sacrificial offerings. Sama Veda, which I did not quote from, is prayers used at Soma offerings. Atharva Veda is hundreds of “charms” and incantations for all kinds of purposes, including gambling.
He who knows truth knows
This as God as one
Neither second nor third
Nor fourth is he called
Neither fifth nor sixth
Nor seventh is he called
Neither eigth nor ninth
Nor tenth is he called.
He possesses the power Supreme
He is the One
The One alone
In him all divine powers
Become the One alone
(Atharva 13.5.14-21)
May it be called Agni, Aditya, Vayu or
Chandrma.
All are names of the supreme spirit
He is Brahma and Prajapati, the supreme
Lord of them all
He is the ultimate power, protector of all beings
(Yajur 32.1)
That one supreme reality has been called by various
names by the learned seers. They call him Indra, Mitra,
Varuna, Agni, Garutman, Yama, Matarishvan
(Rig 1.164.46)
The non-existent was not then,
Nor was the existent
The Earth was not, nor the firament
Nor that which is beyond.
(When there was nothing then), what could
cover what, and where and in whose care did
the waters and bottomless deep then exist?
There was no death nor immortality then;
There was no sign of night, nor of day.
That One breathed without external breath
with his own nature
One than him there was nothing beyond.
In the beginning there was darkness, intensified
darkness, indistinguishable darkness. All this visible
world was reduced to its primordial nature. This
primordial world was enveloped by the One.
Though the force of his intense activity and spiritual fervour
in the beginning the divine will arose.
This was the first seed of the mind of the Creator
Those can see beyond by putting their mind and heart
together found the binding link of the existent in the non
existent, the non existent existing in the existent
(Rig 10.129-1-4)
The whole of this universe
is stationed in the omnipresent
And the omnipotent One.
We see him in various forms.
He brings to light
All these worlds.
Him they call the Kala, infinite,
Pervading the infinite space
(Atharva 19.53.3)
He who knows the first vital thread,
binding all the things formed in shape,
colour and words, knows only the
physical form of the universe, and knows
very little.
But he who goes deeper and perceives the
string inside the string, the thin web binding
separate life-forces with cords of unity, knows
the real entity.
Only he who knows truly the mighty, omnipotent
and omnipresent God, who is within and beyond
all formulated entities of this vast universe. Penetrate
deeper to know the ultimate truth
(Atharva 10.8.3)
Your knowledge and understandings of the Vedas is as bad as your knowledge and understanding of Samkhya-Yoga. Please do not quit your day job.
Member temporarily banned for three days per the forum rules. Edited 09/06/10 at 11:10am - admin
Your attitude is often needlessly rude and judgmental. You waste time and space by saying things like this. It has no value towards this thread at all and you actually made a whole separate post to include it. Do you consider yourself to be the type of role model you want people to look up to when they study Hinduism? Should we all spend our years pouring over ancient religious texts and translating them from Samskrt so that we can engage in battles of logic and argument, and then FINALLY, after proving our intellectual superiority over our opponents, lower ourselves to using catty, over-generalized insults?
Hinduism is an incredible source of knowledge. If you are so keen on the message being raised to a leading global paradigm, then do it justice by not surrounding it’s wisdom with petty drivel like this. If you’re right, the knowledge will speak for itself. You don’t have to follow it up with anything. Even my twelve year old niece doesn’t end her arguments by asserting her superiority over or diminishing her opponent. Do something better with your time.
Namaste Suryadaya,
Do you only see fault here with me, and not with Asuri?
The above was not an insult but an accurate assessment of his knowledge of Vedic philosophy
I have not attacked the person called “Asuri” However, if you review his post history, you will find
plenty of insults he has directed at me. He has told me, “excrement comes from my mouth” and he
was telling people of me being a leader of a Hindu extremist group and insinuated I was going to India to
kill Christians and Muslims. The latter comment is slander. It is a criminal offense. You can review my entire
post history, I have not said anything comparable to this to anybody.
It should be possible to have as the thread title says “A calm and rational discussion on Hinduism vs Abrahamic religions” without exchanging hostilities, insults and condemning one another. Like I said, I invite the same intensity of criticism of Hinduism that I give Abrahamic religions. I am not going to condemn anybody for making an anti-Hindu comment, however be prepared for a very powerful defense.
So far three criticisms of Hinduism have been made which have been found to be unfounded. One criticism was of the recent events of violence against Christians and Muslims by Hindu nationalists. It was found, that this has nothing to do with Hinduism, but it is a recent development in Indian politics provoked by Islamic and Christian fundamentalism.
Another criticism is of the caste system. It was found that the Hindu varnasharama dharma says nothing about outcastes/untouchables, but it is a system of organizing society according to the aptitude of citizens. This Hindu vision has been implemented in different ways throughout Indian history, sometimes as a merit based system and sometimes as a birth based system. However, social mobility has always been possible.
The most recent criticism is of some gibberish contained within the Vedas. It has been found this is because of bad translations of the Vedas by late 19th century European indologists who believed in Aryan race myths and did not translate them Vedas according to the traditional Sanskrit methods, but made up their own way of doing it. This was challenged by Sanskrit scholars and even Western scholars.
So all criticisms so far have been found to be unfounded. I welcome any other criticism.
OK, Out of the probably more than 1,000 hymns in the Rig Veda, you found one of the handful that has a little bit of content to support your position. Funny how you choose to ignore those that don’t, or you blame them on the bad European translators. So you found a creation story and a couple of verses that say all the Gods are the same, so what? It doesn’t change the fact that 99.9% of the Vedas consist of hymns or prayers to the gods, sacrificial prayers, or incantations. I’m sure I could find scriptures to support the position that individual gods were considered externally existent independent entities, but I doubt that’s really the best use of my time. Where is the great Hindu science?
The Vedas definitely contain references to armed conflict that indicate an invasion or territorial warfare of some sort. It is of no consequence to me where the combatants came from. They could be from another planet for all I care, but in that case I would expect that they would have better weapons than bows and arrows. I think that the cultural evidence, which survives to this day, suggests that Hindu culture resulted from the merging of two different cultures.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;36916]It should be possible to have as the thread title says “A calm and rational discussion on Hinduism vs Abrahamic religions” without exchanging hostilities, insults and condemning one another. Like I said, I invite the same intensity of criticism of Hinduism that I give Abrahamic religions. I am not going to condemn anybody for making an anti-Hindu comment, however be prepared for a very powerful defense.
So far three criticisms of Hinduism have been made which have been found to be unfounded. One criticism was of the recent events of violence against Christians and Muslims by Hindu nationalists. It was found, that this has nothing to do with Hinduism, but it is a recent development in Indian politics provoked by Islamic and Christian fundamentalism.
Another criticism is of the caste system. It was found that the Hindu varnasharama dharma says nothing about outcastes/untouchables, but it is a system of organizing society according to the aptitude of citizens. This Hindu vision has been implemented in different ways throughout Indian history, sometimes as a merit based system and sometimes as a birth based system. However, social mobility has always been possible.
The most recent criticism is of some gibberish contained within the Vedas. It has been found this is because of bad translations of the Vedas by late 19th century European indologists who believed in Aryan race myths and did not translate them Vedas according to the traditional Sanskrit methods, but made up their own way of doing it. This was challenged by Sanskrit scholars and even Western scholars.
So all criticisms so far have been found to be unfounded. I welcome any other criticism.[/QUOTE]
The way you refuse to face reality is just ridiculous. :roll:
Namaste,
Let us just concentrate on the actual points, rather than each other. I think what you are failing to understand is the concept of “deva” in the Vedas. “Deva” does not translate to god it translates to luminous ones/shining ones/powers. If you read the Vedas carefully enough you will realise that these “powers” issue from one another, merge into one another at other times. If they were really “gods” as in people, then how people issue from one another and merge into one another? Sometimes the devas are mentioned as plural(The Rudras, the Vasus, Maruts) if they are people, then how can they be plural?
In the end you will believe what you want to believe but the facts do not support your views. The Vedas themselves make it clear at times these powers are just expressions of the ONE supreme reality(Vedic concept of god) The first Deva is Indra(Sanskrit: means the powerful one) who is born out of Aditi(Sanskrit: The infinite) fissioning vritra and releasing the celestial waters, Soma and the celestial energy, Agni. Indra fissions vritra with his vajra(Sanskrit: electric bolt) and is aided in the process by the Maruts, who are the the emanations of Rudra(Sanskrit: the howling and terrible one) and they always travel in formation. As a result of this the first natural phenomenon that comes into being is Surya(Sanskrit: The compressed one) who is born out of the released celestial waters. This is why the Vedas say that Surya is made of Apas(the celestial water)
You have no hope of understanding this without a grasp of Sanskrit. In order to read the Vedas you need the Nirukta(Sanskrit etymology book) which explains what each root means. The European translations did not use the Nirukta when they translated the Vedas, because they arrogantly beleived their translation methods were better. What do they do not realise, which Sri Aurobindo points out later, that Sanskrit roots have had as many as 20 different meanings throughout the ages(Sayana lists them in his commentary on the Rig veda) For instance the root word go has meant cow, senses, light, fire, rays, sun. The European translators, failing to acknowledge this, translated everything in the Vedas that said “go” to mean cow. What do you expect? They had no scholarship in Sanskrit. They had only started to learn about the language. This is why if you want to read authentic translations you need to read translations done by Sanskrit scholars.
[quote=Surya Deva;36915]
Namaste Suryadaya,
Do you only see fault here with me, and not with Asuri?
The above was not an insult but an accurate assessment of his knowledge of Vedic philosophy
I have not attacked the person called “Asuri” However, if you review his post history, you will find
plenty of insults he has directed at me. He has told me, “excrement comes from my mouth” and he
was telling people of me being a leader of a Hindu extremist group and insinuated I was going to India to
kill Christians and Muslims. The latter comment is slander. It is a criminal offense. You can review my entire
post history, I have not said anything comparable to this to anybody.[/quote]
Did you read my post at all, or just isolate that you were being victimized and reference the actions of others? Does his insulting you justify that you should do it to? Even to a much lesser degree? It might make you feel like you have the liberty, but you could be able to rise above that now. Someone who is a scholar of the Vedic texts has the knowledge available to him to be a better person than this. I will re-summarize my last post for your understanding: You have an incredible wealth of knowledge and you are acting less mature than a twelve year old. Of what use is the knowledge of transcending the material self when it is not applied?
[quote=Surya Deva;36915]
Please do not quit your day job.[/quote]
Do you think that posting things like this is setting a good example of how to live the teachings you are trying to impart?
[B]
This is not at all related to an “[/B][B]accurate assessment of his knowledge of Vedic philosophy”.[/B] This is a phrase my hair stylist likes to use when she talks about other hair stylists behind their back. She is also less mature than a twelve year old, (despite her extensive studies of the ancient styling texts and years of experience putting the art of it to practice). It was also not funny, or creative in the slightest (this is an accurate assessment of your ability to use sarcasm). The comment had no value towards this conversation nor realistic application to Asuri’s real life. It is inefficient and worthless.
Unrelated to this… since you believe that the translations of the Rg Veda which were posted earlier are incorrect, your response that they are invalid stands unproved in this argument until you provide a correct link or translation of them all which shows what their correct interpretation should be. Those translations should be from a unbiased source, not translated by you. It would in fact be better if you could provide reference to more than one source from which we would compare, as interpretation is always based on the lineage and the more we know, the further we go! This request applies only if your intention here is to teach us something valuable, and not just prove us wrong. I would be fascinated to read what the Rg Veda actually says in those passages, simply for the sake of knowledge, and nothing to do with debate.
Now, if you believe that no one here is capable of living up to your standards when it comes to knowledge of this type, then why aren’t you debating with people who are of your level? Earlier you posted several passages from the Rg Veda, Atharva Veda and Yajur Veda. They are all beautiful and we could use more posts on here that comment on their true meaning, or ways in which they could be practically applied. Everyone on this forum would also like to discuss commentaries on the yoga sutra-s, or maybe even the Gita. Your knowledge in this matter could potentially go very far-- much father than arguing, debating and making snide comments about not quitting our day jobs. You have a lot of time, obviously. Apply your knowledge in an intelligent way here, and make the most of it.
Namaste suryadaya,
You are only criticising me here, when obviously both sides have engaged in what you call “snide remarks” and hostilities. Thus how can I take your comments seriously given an obvious bias to exaggerate the bad in what I say and overlook the bad in what others say? If you want to be the voice of reason in this debate you will have to show you are impartial.
My intention here is not to teach anybody anything. Am I a teacher? If you want to learn the Gita, Yoga Sutras and the Vedas etc you need to find a Guru. I am not a substitute for a Guru. I am just like you, a contributor to this forum. I come here to discuss. I just happen to have more knowledge in philosophy and Vedas/Hinduism than the average poster here. I am definitely no teacher though. I will gladly share my knowledge(which I do, anyway) where required. Sometimes, my knowledge does become a weapon because some people make false statements and I have to put their statements straight.
Even if I was a guru? Does this mean I should be compassionate and respectful to everything and everybody? No, even gurus are known to give harsh criticism. I have read several gurus who’ve never shyed away from destroying another person’s idea, if they found it wrong. In fact gurus are actually quite strict and deliberately try to break the ego of their students. The Zen masters even hit their students.
I think it should be clear now I do not believe in political correctness or sugar coating what I have to say. I say everything in a straight forward way. If I think Jesus was being arrogant, I say it. I do not look for other words just so that I do not offend Christians. I say what I think.
I am not here to make friends. I am here to discuss.
Now I feel we should move on from personal discussion to discussion that will actually move this thread along i.e., discussion of the points. A valid point is a valid point always, no matter who says it or how it is said.
Unrelated to this… since you believe that the translations of the Rg Veda which were posted earlier are incorrect, your response that they are invalid stands unproved in this argument until you provide a correct link or translation of them all which shows what their correct interpretation should be. Those translations should be from a unbiased source, not translated by you. It would in fact be better if you could provide reference to more than one source from which we would compare, as interpretation is always based on the lineage and the more we know, the further we go! This request applies only if your intention here is to teach us something valuable, and not just prove us wrong.
And do you think translations done by early 19th century racist Europeans scholars, many of whom were Christian missionaries who are out to convert the natives to Christianity, of the sacred scriptures of the natives of the land they have invaded and occupied and who believed in a superior white Aryan race that conquered the world, to be an unbiassed source? One of the main European translators of Vedas, Max Mueller, said this:
“I should like to live for 10 years quite quietly and learn the language, try to make friends, and then see whether I was fit to take part in a work, by means of which the old mischief of Indian priestcraft could be overthrown and the way opened for the entrance of simple Christian teaching.Whatever finds root in India soon overshadows the whole of Asia.”
“It took only 200 years for us to Christianise the whole of Africa, but even after 400 years India eludes us, I have come to realize that it is Sanskrit which has enabled India to do so. And to break it I have decided to learn Sanskrit.”
Source: Published Letters of Max Mueller
Edit to add: The translations I offered of some selected hymns in the Vedas are not translated by me. They are translated by Pandit Vidyalanakar, a Sanskrit scholar, and are from the anthology “Holy Vedas” I recommend getting it.
Agreed - responded to you personally in regards to other points.
[quote=Surya Deva;36922]
And do you think translations done by early 19th century racist Europeans scholars, many of whom were Christian missionaries who are out to convert the natives to Christianity, of the sacred scriptures of the natives of the land they have invaded and occupied and who believed in a superior white Aryan race that conquered the world, to be an unbiased source? [/quote]
No, I do not think that they are unbiased. That is why I asked if you would provide a translation. Asking that you not translate them youself is only reasonable considering that it is your opinion of those texts which he is asking for. My local Vedic bookstore is thirty minutes away by rickshaw and we can’t all afford to buy commentaries on the Rg Veda for the sake of an argument. You have one, and if you are claiming that what was posted is drastically incorrect in comparison to the correct translation, you have been invited to prove it by providing the text of an alternative which shows otherwise.
Suryadaya ji, I have already provided an authentic English translation. The ‘Holy Vedas’ by Pundit Vidyalankar(the verses I cited were from from this text) There is also ‘Rig Veda for the Layman’ by Sujoy Ghosh. Others that you should you consider are the translations by Swami Dayananda Saraswati and Devi Chand(these are available in a set of volumes)
I will especially recommend Sujoy Ghosh’s work, because he follows the traditional Sanskrit method very faithfully and provides a word-for-word breakdown of each Sanskrit verb.
[quote=Surya Deva;36927]Suryadaya ji, I have already provided an authentic English translation. The ‘Holy Vedas’ by Pundit Vidyalankar(the verses I cited were from from this text) There is also ‘Rig Veda for the Layman’ by Sujoy Ghosh. Others that you should you consider are the translations by Swami Dayananda Saraswati and Devi Chand(these are available in a set of volumes)
I will especially recommend Sujoy Ghosh’s work, because he follows the traditional Sanskrit method very faithfully and provides a word-for-word breakdown of each Sanskrit verb.[/quote]
I appreciate this because I would like to actually find a good translation to buy once I am home (I assume they are big, but I could be wrong. I have three enormous books on the Upanisads to take home already). I meant that it would be nice for you to post an example that shows the difference between the scriptures which were posted earlier and the better translation. Even a few lines that illustrate your point would be helpful. As I said, we can’t all go out and buy the book and I am interested to know what is actually different. Some excerpts from the section on weapons of war would be interesting to see, for example. Rig Veda for the Layman sounds like it would be fantastic. Perhaps you could post something from this text.
You can review my entire
post history, I have not said anything comparable to this to anybody.
Hum…really?
This is why I haven’t posted recently. I am really tired of all of this. This is not yoga or why I joined this forum.
[QUOTE=Asuri;36904]I haven’t taken anything out of context, Alix. In fact the hymns I quoted illustrate the context of the different Vedas. Rig Veda consists of hundreds, if not thousands of hymns to various gods, mostly Indra and Agni. Yajur Veda consists of prayers used at sacrificial offerings. Sama Veda, which I did not quote from, is prayers used at Soma offerings. Atharva Veda is hundreds of “charms” and incantations for all kinds of purposes, including gambling. Atharva Veda also contains a little metaphysical, cosmologincal, content.[/QUOTE]
Sorry Asuri, I know you did not, what I meant was rather that your posts were being “ignored” because the translation was not relevant. I’m not sure why I keep trying to point out the inconsistencies here (must be the teacher in me!) as anything that does not fit is ignored.
I am going to try harder to ignore this thread as it causes me to shake my head and become frustrated. My life choices recently reflect a desire to avoid such things. Namaste, I wish you luck.