Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

Spirituality Religion
#241

Namaste,

Let us just concentrate on the actual points, rather than each other. I think what you are failing to understand is the concept of “deva” in the Vedas. “Deva” does not translate to god it translates to luminous ones/shining ones/powers. If you read the Vedas carefully enough you will realise that these “powers” issue from one another, merge into one another at other times. If they were really “gods” as in people, then how people issue from one another and merge into one another? Sometimes the devas are mentioned as plural(The Rudras, the Vasus, Maruts) if they are people, then how can they be plural?

In the end you will believe what you want to believe but the facts do not support your views. The Vedas themselves make it clear at times these powers are just expressions of the ONE supreme reality(Vedic concept of god) The first Deva is Indra(Sanskrit: means the powerful one) who is born out of Aditi(Sanskrit: The infinite) fissioning vritra and releasing the celestial waters, Soma and the celestial energy, Agni. Indra fissions vritra with his vajra(Sanskrit: electric bolt) and is aided in the process by the Maruts, who are the the emanations of Rudra(Sanskrit: the howling and terrible one) and they always travel in formation. As a result of this the first natural phenomenon that comes into being is Surya(Sanskrit: The compressed one) who is born out of the released celestial waters. This is why the Vedas say that Surya is made of Apas(the celestial water)

You have no hope of understanding this without a grasp of Sanskrit. In order to read the Vedas you need the Nirukta(Sanskrit etymology book) which explains what each root means. The European translations did not use the Nirukta when they translated the Vedas, because they arrogantly beleived their translation methods were better. What do they do not realise, which Sri Aurobindo points out later, that Sanskrit roots have had as many as 20 different meanings throughout the ages(Sayana lists them in his commentary on the Rig veda) For instance the root word go has meant cow, senses, light, fire, rays, sun. The European translators, failing to acknowledge this, translated everything in the Vedas that said “go” to mean cow. What do you expect? They had no scholarship in Sanskrit. They had only started to learn about the language. This is why if you want to read authentic translations you need to read translations done by Sanskrit scholars.

#242

[quote=Surya Deva;36915]
Namaste Suryadaya,

Do you only see fault here with me, and not with Asuri?

The above was not an insult but an accurate assessment of his knowledge of Vedic philosophy
I have not attacked the person called “Asuri” However, if you review his post history, you will find
plenty of insults he has directed at me. He has told me, “excrement comes from my mouth” and he
was telling people of me being a leader of a Hindu extremist group and insinuated I was going to India to
kill Christians and Muslims. The latter comment is slander. It is a criminal offense. You can review my entire
post history, I have not said anything comparable to this to anybody.[/quote]

Did you read my post at all, or just isolate that you were being victimized and reference the actions of others? Does his insulting you justify that you should do it to? Even to a much lesser degree? It might make you feel like you have the liberty, but you could be able to rise above that now. Someone who is a scholar of the Vedic texts has the knowledge available to him to be a better person than this. I will re-summarize my last post for your understanding: You have an incredible wealth of knowledge and you are acting less mature than a twelve year old. Of what use is the knowledge of transcending the material self when it is not applied?

[quote=Surya Deva;36915]
Please do not quit your day job.[/quote]
Do you think that posting things like this is setting a good example of how to live the teachings you are trying to impart?
[B]
This is not at all related to an “[/B][B]accurate assessment of his knowledge of Vedic philosophy”.[/B] This is a phrase my hair stylist likes to use when she talks about other hair stylists behind their back. She is also less mature than a twelve year old, (despite her extensive studies of the ancient styling texts and years of experience putting the art of it to practice). It was also not funny, or creative in the slightest (this is an accurate assessment of your ability to use sarcasm). The comment had no value towards this conversation nor realistic application to Asuri’s real life. It is inefficient and worthless.

Unrelated to this… since you believe that the translations of the Rg Veda which were posted earlier are incorrect, your response that they are invalid stands unproved in this argument until you provide a correct link or translation of them all which shows what their correct interpretation should be. Those translations should be from a unbiased source, not translated by you. It would in fact be better if you could provide reference to more than one source from which we would compare, as interpretation is always based on the lineage and the more we know, the further we go! This request applies only if your intention here is to teach us something valuable, and not just prove us wrong. I would be fascinated to read what the Rg Veda actually says in those passages, simply for the sake of knowledge, and nothing to do with debate.

Now, if you believe that no one here is capable of living up to your standards when it comes to knowledge of this type, then why aren’t you debating with people who are of your level? Earlier you posted several passages from the Rg Veda, Atharva Veda and Yajur Veda. They are all beautiful and we could use more posts on here that comment on their true meaning, or ways in which they could be practically applied. Everyone on this forum would also like to discuss commentaries on the yoga sutra-s, or maybe even the Gita. Your knowledge in this matter could potentially go very far-- much father than arguing, debating and making snide comments about not quitting our day jobs. You have a lot of time, obviously. Apply your knowledge in an intelligent way here, and make the most of it.

#243

Namaste suryadaya,

You are only criticising me here, when obviously both sides have engaged in what you call “snide remarks” and hostilities. Thus how can I take your comments seriously given an obvious bias to exaggerate the bad in what I say and overlook the bad in what others say? If you want to be the voice of reason in this debate you will have to show you are impartial.

My intention here is not to teach anybody anything. Am I a teacher? If you want to learn the Gita, Yoga Sutras and the Vedas etc you need to find a Guru. I am not a substitute for a Guru. I am just like you, a contributor to this forum. I come here to discuss. I just happen to have more knowledge in philosophy and Vedas/Hinduism than the average poster here. I am definitely no teacher though. I will gladly share my knowledge(which I do, anyway) where required. Sometimes, my knowledge does become a weapon because some people make false statements and I have to put their statements straight.

Even if I was a guru? Does this mean I should be compassionate and respectful to everything and everybody? No, even gurus are known to give harsh criticism. I have read several gurus who’ve never shyed away from destroying another person’s idea, if they found it wrong. In fact gurus are actually quite strict and deliberately try to break the ego of their students. The Zen masters even hit their students.

I think it should be clear now I do not believe in political correctness or sugar coating what I have to say. I say everything in a straight forward way. If I think Jesus was being arrogant, I say it. I do not look for other words just so that I do not offend Christians. I say what I think.

I am not here to make friends. I am here to discuss.

#244

Now I feel we should move on from personal discussion to discussion that will actually move this thread along i.e., discussion of the points. A valid point is a valid point always, no matter who says it or how it is said.

Unrelated to this… since you believe that the translations of the Rg Veda which were posted earlier are incorrect, your response that they are invalid stands unproved in this argument until you provide a correct link or translation of them all which shows what their correct interpretation should be. Those translations should be from a unbiased source, not translated by you. It would in fact be better if you could provide reference to more than one source from which we would compare, as interpretation is always based on the lineage and the more we know, the further we go! This request applies only if your intention here is to teach us something valuable, and not just prove us wrong.

And do you think translations done by early 19th century racist Europeans scholars, many of whom were Christian missionaries who are out to convert the natives to Christianity, of the sacred scriptures of the natives of the land they have invaded and occupied and who believed in a superior white Aryan race that conquered the world, to be an unbiassed source? One of the main European translators of Vedas, Max Mueller, said this:

“I should like to live for 10 years quite quietly and learn the language, try to make friends, and then see whether I was fit to take part in a work, by means of which the old mischief of Indian priestcraft could be overthrown and the way opened for the entrance of simple Christian teaching.Whatever finds root in India soon overshadows the whole of Asia.”

“It took only 200 years for us to Christianise the whole of Africa, but even after 400 years India eludes us, I have come to realize that it is Sanskrit which has enabled India to do so. And to break it I have decided to learn Sanskrit.”

Source: Published Letters of Max Mueller

Edit to add: The translations I offered of some selected hymns in the Vedas are not translated by me. They are translated by Pandit Vidyalanakar, a Sanskrit scholar, and are from the anthology “Holy Vedas” I recommend getting it.

#245

Agreed - responded to you personally in regards to other points.

[quote=Surya Deva;36922]
And do you think translations done by early 19th century racist Europeans scholars, many of whom were Christian missionaries who are out to convert the natives to Christianity, of the sacred scriptures of the natives of the land they have invaded and occupied and who believed in a superior white Aryan race that conquered the world, to be an unbiased source? [/quote]

No, I do not think that they are unbiased. That is why I asked if you would provide a translation. Asking that you not translate them youself is only reasonable considering that it is your opinion of those texts which he is asking for. My local Vedic bookstore is thirty minutes away by rickshaw and we can’t all afford to buy commentaries on the Rg Veda for the sake of an argument. You have one, and if you are claiming that what was posted is drastically incorrect in comparison to the correct translation, you have been invited to prove it by providing the text of an alternative which shows otherwise.

#246

Suryadaya ji, I have already provided an authentic English translation. The ‘Holy Vedas’ by Pundit Vidyalankar(the verses I cited were from from this text) There is also ‘Rig Veda for the Layman’ by Sujoy Ghosh. Others that you should you consider are the translations by Swami Dayananda Saraswati and Devi Chand(these are available in a set of volumes)

I will especially recommend Sujoy Ghosh’s work, because he follows the traditional Sanskrit method very faithfully and provides a word-for-word breakdown of each Sanskrit verb.

#247

[quote=Surya Deva;36927]Suryadaya ji, I have already provided an authentic English translation. The ‘Holy Vedas’ by Pundit Vidyalankar(the verses I cited were from from this text) There is also ‘Rig Veda for the Layman’ by Sujoy Ghosh. Others that you should you consider are the translations by Swami Dayananda Saraswati and Devi Chand(these are available in a set of volumes)

I will especially recommend Sujoy Ghosh’s work, because he follows the traditional Sanskrit method very faithfully and provides a word-for-word breakdown of each Sanskrit verb.[/quote]

I appreciate this because I would like to actually find a good translation to buy once I am home (I assume they are big, but I could be wrong. I have three enormous books on the Upanisads to take home already). I meant that it would be nice for you to post an example that shows the difference between the scriptures which were posted earlier and the better translation. Even a few lines that illustrate your point would be helpful. As I said, we can’t all go out and buy the book and I am interested to know what is actually different. Some excerpts from the section on weapons of war would be interesting to see, for example. Rig Veda for the Layman sounds like it would be fantastic. Perhaps you could post something from this text.

#248

You can review my entire
post history, I have not said anything comparable to this to anybody.

Hum…really?
This is why I haven’t posted recently. I am really tired of all of this. This is not yoga or why I joined this forum.

#249

[QUOTE=Asuri;36904]I haven’t taken anything out of context, Alix. In fact the hymns I quoted illustrate the context of the different Vedas. Rig Veda consists of hundreds, if not thousands of hymns to various gods, mostly Indra and Agni. Yajur Veda consists of prayers used at sacrificial offerings. Sama Veda, which I did not quote from, is prayers used at Soma offerings. Atharva Veda is hundreds of “charms” and incantations for all kinds of purposes, including gambling. Atharva Veda also contains a little metaphysical, cosmologincal, content.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Asuri, I know you did not, what I meant was rather that your posts were being “ignored” because the translation was not relevant. I’m not sure why I keep trying to point out the inconsistencies here (must be the teacher in me!) as anything that does not fit is ignored.

I am going to try harder to ignore this thread as it causes me to shake my head and become frustrated. My life choices recently reflect a desire to avoid such things. Namaste, I wish you luck.

#250

Despite this being a very controversial topic, please try to remain respectful and follow the forum rules as it makes me a sad panda to hand out infractions. And nobody likes to see a sad panda.[U][/U]

#251

David,
It’s is a test of will for most of us to remain on the sidelines and endure consistent racial and religuous slurs by one member of the group and not respond in kind, particularly when the slurs are disguised in the form of logical debate (I have read many logical arguments made coherent by intelligent minds of certain nazis to recognize a similarity in form, if not function). Yes, we are all on the yogic path of being true to ourselves and holding ourselves together in the present, but the challenge can be very daunting.

I don’t envy your deft negotiation between what is accepted and not accepted in these threads.

#252

And I think you’ve all been doing really well! It’s impressive, really. You should all look in the mirror and smile at yourself then make out with your reflection. At least that’s what I do four or five times a day. Ok, eight.

Me neither. So I’ve taken to going to the temporary ban screen then letting my kitten walk on my keyboard to make the final determination. So if any of you don’t like the decisions I make, you’re blaming a kitten. HEATHENS.

#253

[QUOTE=David;36953] So I’ve taken to going to the temporary ban screen then letting my kitten walk on my keyboard to make the final determination. So if any of you don’t like the decisions I make, you’re blaming a kitten. HEATHENS.[/QUOTE]

Makes purrfect sense to me.

#254

The unity of all religions started in earnest as a discussion and COOPERATION between all religions:

http://www.oikoumene.org/programmes/interreligiousdialogue.html

Recently father Raimon Pannikar, a Catholic from Barcelona, died. He was very active in this dialogue and cooperation between all religions

He even went to India to study the Hindu scriptures. After that he wrote: "I dicovered I was a Hindu and returned as a Buddhist, without ever having ceased to be a Christian."

The main thesis of his work "The Unknown Christ of Hinduism" was based on a close textual comparison between Thomas Aquinas and Sanskara's interpretation of a canonical Hindu scripture, the Brahma Sutras. Christ is not te monopoly or exclusive property of Christianity. Rather, Christ is the universal symbol of divinr human unity, the human face of God. Christ vastly transcends Christianity, which approaches Christ in a particular and unique way.

My note: This is in agreement with what Paramahansa Yogananda wrote in his books
"The Second Coming of Christ" and "The Yoga of Jesus."

#255

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;36952]David,
It’s is a test of will for most of us to remain on the sidelines and endure consistent racial and religuous slurs by one member of the group and not respond in kind.[/QUOTE]

So true.

#256

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;36952]David,
It’s is a test of will for most of us to remain on the sidelines and endure consistent racial and religuous slurs by one member of the group and not respond in kind.[/QUOTE]

I do not think that to remain on the sidelines is the best policy. Slurs shall be responded with the truth. Evil should be fought with good.

" A crazy man throws a stone in the lake and ten good people get
crazy to take it out. "

                          European Proverb
#257

Despite the negativity in this thread, I think we have all learned much about other religions. It has helped me to understand that while I am no longer Catholic, I still have a kinship with it. It’s pretty much like the quote I posted in the poetry section by the Dalai Lama. We all have this intrinsic link that binds us all together, regardless of what religion we belong to. We are all searching, yearning, seeking, trying. We want to follow the path that leads to enlightenment, redemption or whatever. We all do this separately, and for the most part with love and compassion. This is what each of us should remember…we’re striving for the same thing. Just my opinion though. I realize it is not shared by all. And you know what, it’s OK.

It is hard to sit on the sidelines and not get involved. All most us want is to be heard and respected for our thoughts and opinions. We don’t like to be ignored or to have to repeat things a million times. We don’t need to be challenged on every issue. Yes, we can back off and say no. Tried that, and that didn’t work too well.

On the other hand, whose truth is more noble? What is evil? How far do you go to fight evil? I don’t know the answers. But I do think we need to think about it.

#258

Unity of all religions

I see here that the Muslims also believe that there is only a true religion, God’s religion:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/muslims/interviews/feisal.html

#259

Rig Veda for the Layman sounds like it would be fantastic. Perhaps you could post something from this text.

Sure :slight_smile: I will post a comparison between Sujoy Gosh’s translation of the Rig Veda using the authentic Vykarana methods and Griffith translation.

Rig 1.1.1

Sanskrit transliteration: Agnim ile purah-hitam yagnasya devam rtivijam hotam ratnadhatamam

Ghosh:

Word-for-word:

agnim: (ang = to flicker, zig zag) fire, divine fire, sacrificial fire inside stomach, bile
Ile: (id = to praise) I praise, adore, marvel
purah-hitam: inside placed, the word purah also signifies in front of or before, while pura indicates a town, stronghold or body.
yagnasya: (Yaj = to sacrifice, dedicate, bestow, give away) of efforts made, energy sacrificed
devam: (Div = to shine) senses, the light of consciousness/intelligence
rtivijam: (r = to move out, change, shape up, excite + jya = to get consumed) fuel, maintainer of energy conservation(rita = eternal law)
ratnadhatamam: treasure, anything valuable or precious/gems --(Dha = to hold, maintain) holding firmly

Translation: I praise/adore that fire divine that is placed within us, which provides us with the energy needed to vitalise our senses and consciousness, which when called upon it unfolds great treasures placed within us.

Commentary by Gosh. As the mode of the cosmic energy, Agni bestows upon all living creatures the necessary heat, light, power of procreation. The word is rooted in ang, meaning to move very intensely or very fast. Ang also means a limb or a part of a whole.

Griffith: I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice,
The hotar, lavishest of wealth.

Rig 1.1.2

Sanskrit transliteration: agnih purvebhi rsibhi idyah uta sah devan a iha vaksati

Ghosh

Word for Word:

agnih: fire, vital energy
purvebhi: earlier also
rsibhi: by the Risis, the great thinkers/seers
idyah: (Id = to praise) was praised, adored
nutanaih: by the new ones
uta: and, also
devan: (Div = to shine) to the shining ones, senses
a: towards, direct
iha: here
vaksati: (Vaks = to grow, increase, be powerful) make powerful
stimulates, activates

Translation: This adorable Agni was eugolised by the early seers, just as it is being done by the new ones. It is the one that directs our senses here(in this body)

Griffith: Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers.
He shall bring hitherward the Gods.

Rig 1.1.3

Sanskrit transliteration: agnina rayim asnavat posam eva dive-dive yasasam viravataman

Ghosh:

Word for Word:

agnina: By the vital energy
rayim: (rai = to flow, advance) zeal, arduour
asnavat: (as = to fill completely) like food filling the stomach
posam: (pus = to nourish) nourishes
eva: quickly, speedily
dive-dive: day-to-day
yasasam: satisfactorily, agreeably
viravattaman: powerful, vigorously, gripping

Translation: Like food nourishing our body, our zeal/energy for work to gets replenished by Agni from day to day, vigorously.

Griffith: Through Agni man obtaineth wealth, yea, plenty waxing day by day,
Most rich in heroes, glorious.

Rig 1.1.4

Sanskrit transliteration: agne yam yajnam adhvarnam visvatah pari-bhu asi sah it devesu gacchati

Ghosh

Word for Word:

agne: O Agni(fire divine)
yam: to that
yajnam: sacrifice, endeavour
adhvarnam: (Adhvan = way, passage, space, time, sky) mid-heaven, mind
visvatah: all round, everywhere
pari-bhu: encircles, encompasses all that exists(bhu)
asi: you are
sah: He, it
it: moving, going into
devesu: into the senses
gacchati: goes

Translation: O Agni, whatever sacrifice/effort we make, it is you who pervades that everywhere in the sky and beyond. It is that energy which also goes into our senses.

Commentary by Ghosh: The Risi here is emphasising that energy is imperishable, it is never lost, only changes its mode. The energy that works in the senses, is also the same that exists in the cosmos. The sky(adhvarnam) figuritively here signifies the mind

Commentary(by me): Agni is known as the messenger or conveyer in the Vedas. He conveys all the sacrifices we make to the celestial regions and brings forth result.

Griffith: Agni, the perfect sacrifice which thou encompassest about
Verily goeth to the Gods.

Rig 1.1.5

Sanskrit transliteration: agnih hota kavikratuh satyah citrasravah-tamahd devah devebhi a gamat

Ghosh:

Word for Word:

agnih: the vital energy
hota: (hu = to invoke) invoker, sacrificer
kavi-kratuh: (kr = to create, generate) creative intelligence
satyah: true, the real
citrasravah-tamah = floating pictures - dispeller of darkness
devah: light, senses
devebhi: by the light, senses
a: onwards, direct
gamat: (gam = to go, to arrive) moves

Translation: For the invoker that calls upon Agni, creative intelligence is awakened, which dispels the darkness caused by the floating pictures in the mind and reveals the true reality. It drives onwards the light which enlightens the senses.

Griffith: May Agni, sapient-minded Priest, truthful, most gloriously great,
The God, come hither with the Gods.

#260

If we critically compare these translations we will find that Griffith’s translation completely ignores the complex etymology of Sanskrit word which follow complex rules of combination of verbs(rules of sandhi) This is easy to see why considering that European translators had next to no scholarship in the Sanskrit language, and hence why they did a very poor job translating the Vedas. In addition they were working under the assumption that the Vedic people were barbarian, so they translated many of the verses using this assumption. So where it would say, “Indra, grant us intellect” they would translate it as “Indra, give us cattle” because after all why would barbarians ask for intellect?

I also hope you understand just what a difficult task it is to translate the Vedas. A single line requires so much linguistic analysis. Thus translating 10,000 hymns is a huge undertaking. This is why many people have not attempted translations of the Vedas. In any case the above comparaison of the translations will suffice to show just how different of a reading you get when you read an authentic English translation by a Sanskrit scholar.