Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

Spirituality Religion
#261

This would be a start indeed. However, not all religions are compatible and they teach opposing doctrines. In the end these religions will need to have to debate with one another to show which doctrine is superior.

In the course of this thread I have learned that Christianity is a 'make-it-up-as-you-go-" religion. It seems to be a very confused religion as it cannot be sure what Jesus taught and there are contradictions aplenty and nor is there any historical proof of Jesus ever existing, which demotes this religion to the level of myth. Overall this is a religion of men using myth for the purposes of political control. This makes it a meaningless religion because it does not really have a stable doctrine as such

I have more respect for Islam, however, because it remains loyal to its scripture and does not change with time. Unfortunately, with scripture ordaining the killing of infidels, beating of women and with some 200 verses simply condemning the non-believers, this religion also serves no purpose for any genuine spiritual seeker. Outdated.

Hinduism is a religion where the fundamentals do not change, however interpretations and articulations of the fundamentals change in accordance with time. This makes it highly relevant for the scientific world because its fundamentals can be tested scientifically and the application of those fundamentals are not limited to any dogma.

I have no doubt about it that Hinduism has a superior doctrine and would easily win in a formal debate with any other religion.

#262

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37166]This would be a start indeed. However, not all religions are compatible and they teach opposing doctrines. In the end these religions will need to have to debate with one another to show which doctrine is superior.

In the course of this thread I have learned that Christianity is a 'make-it-up-as-you-go-" religion. It seems to be a very confused religion as it cannot be sure what Jesus taught and there are contradictions aplenty and nor is there any historical proof of Jesus ever existing, which demotes this religion to the level of myth. Overall this is a religion of men using myth for the purposes of political control. This makes it a meaningless religion because it does not really have a stable doctrine as such

I have more respect for Islam, however, because it remains loyal to its scripture and does not change with time. Unfortunately, with scripture ordaining the killing of infidels, beating of women and with some 200 verses simply condemning the non-believers, this religion also serves no purpose for any genuine spiritual seeker. Outdated.

Hinduism is a religion where the fundamentals do not change, however interpretations and articulations of the fundamentals change in accordance with time. This makes it highly relevant for the scientific world because its fundamentals can be tested scientifically and the application of those fundamentals are not limited to any dogma.

I have no doubt about it that Hinduism has a superior doctrine and would easily win in a formal debate with any other religion.[/QUOTE]

One one hand Surya, you have stated numerous times that Christianity needs to change. Now you are saying you respect Islam because they have remained loyal to its scriptures and have not changed. You respect, AS YOU PUT IT, a violent religion based upon ONE fact…that they have not changed. You condemn violence in other religions and want them to change, yet you respect when they remain true to their scriptures? Can’t have it both ways. Makes no sense at all to me.

#263

[QUOTE=Techne;35480]I figured a new thread was appropriate for this one. I believe the quote text serves as a link to YogiAdam’s thread, where this discussion started.

Interesting discussion, and I do take a little exception to the fact that a person claiming to be “tolerant” is also sounding quite arrogant about his beliefs. or perhaps I’m naive in believing that “tolerant” implies that one does not judge others for their beliefs as Surya Deva is doing.

#264

All things are open to judgement. Including ones beliefs.

Lotusgirl, I am not sure what Christianity needs to change in, as there is nothing stable there to change. It’s a make-it-up as you go religion. To be honest it is nothing more than a myth to control the masses. Jesus seems to be part of this myth. I feel sorry for Jesus, because if such a man really did exist, his name has been used to justify such great corruption, genocide and oppression.

I have no more time for this religion. I see no point discussing it any further.

#265

Surya Deva,

Could you please respond to my statement below?

One one hand Surya, you have stated numerous times that Christianity needs to change. Now you are saying you respect Islam because they have remained loyal to its scriptures and have not changed. You respect, AS YOU PUT IT, a violent religion based upon ONE fact…that they have not changed. You condemn violence in other religions and want them to change, yet you respect when they remain true to their scriptures? Can’t have it both ways. Makes no sense at all to me.

If I were you, you would say I ended the discussion because I lost.

#266

Lotusgirl ji,

I have realised that Christianity is less a religion and more a system of politics, exploitation and control. When Christians cannot even be sure what Jesus taught and change everything at their own whim, what point is there discussing that religion? Like I said it’s make-it-up-as-you-go religion. It is nothing more than a myth.

My original point was the superiority of Hindu religion over others. I have not changed my point once. I have always maintained that Hindu religion is superior. I even expressed doubt remember that I do not understand how a religion could change, for if it changes it means it is not divinely inspired, it just the works of men. This has become very clear with Christianity that it is created by men for the purposes of controlling men.

#267

Again and again, you don’t answer specifics. Is this what Philosophy taught you?

#268

You condemn violence in other religions and want them to change, yet you respect when they remain true to their scriptures? Can’t have it both ways. Makes no sense at all to me.

In this context change means admitting that these regressive, violent and primitive doctrines do exist in Christianity and removing them. As one would remove thorns.

However, I maintain that I have a problem with “change” because this means that your religion cannot be valid at all, because the “word of god” is changing. In science we call this falsification. When a theory is rejected, we do not change the old theory, we replace it with a new one. I look at religion in exactly the same way. If a religion is falsified(Christianity has been constantly falsified) it means it is not valid and that religion needs to be replaced by another.

Hinduism is a superior religion because it has never been falsified. This is why it is the religion for scientists.

#269

But what about respecting Islam for not changing? How can you explain that? You’ve stated over and over they are violent, yet now you respect them. Makes no logical sense.

I have to go now. Hopefully someone will pick it up.

Bye now!

#270

Nope you are taking what I said out of context. I respect Islam for being honest enough not to change its doctrines, because it is loyal to its scripture. However, I also said it is unfortunately a barbaric religion because it ordains killing and beating of women, and thus has no merit for a genuine spiritual seeker.

Like I said I see this as a scientist. Each religion for me is testable and if the religion fails the test I reject it as any good scientist would reject a bad theory. Hinduism is the only religion that has passesd all the tests. It has passed the test of scientific credibility(science backs everything Hinduism says up) it passes the test of practicality(Yoga and meditation actually work and do produce the results Hinduism says it does) it passes the test of morality(civil, human, women animal and environmental rights) and it passes the test of history(tolerance, no crusades, no inquisitions, no genocide). It is easily the most superior religion on the planet. A religion for enlightened and civilised people.

If you look at each religion like a theory you can treat this subject objectively. Christian theory has been dead in the water ever since Copernicus revealed the heliocentric model. Then it got bashed a second time by Dawin. Then a third time by modern archeologists who have not found a shred of proof that Jesus ever existed. Now by Yoga :smiley:

#271

The prejudice is an irrational aversion towards a person or thiing. It causes a stoning of the mental, which will not see the things in their right light. The differences of opinions are not endured any longer, causing intolerance. The religious intolerance and prejudice
are grave obstacles for a seeker. Some PANDITs (intelectuals) believe in earnest that only the Sanskrits will achieve enlightment; they consider as barbarians the SANNYASINs
who speak English. Huge is the stupidity of these fanatics.

If somebody has prejudices towards the Biible or Coran and cannot see the TRUTH within these books, this happens because of stoning of his mental. Any human being can reach God, if he studies and practises the teachings of the Bible or Coran or Bhagavad Gita or
the books of Buddha.

The seekers should eliminate any prejudices and to experience themselves directly. Only that way they will see the TRUTH everywhere. The TRUTH is not the monopoly of the
PANDITs, Sansskrits of Benares, or varagins of Ayodhya. The TRUTH, RAMA, KHRISHNA, JESUS belong to the whole humanity.

The sectarians and fanatics close into themselves into a narrow circle; they do not have a great heart and cannot see what is good in others, because of their wrong ideas. They believe that their principles and doctrines are the only ones worthy and despise
the other doctrines and principles. They consider their spiritual system SAMPRODAYA
as being superior to any other system. They consider their GURU as the only human being with Divine Realization. They are always at war with others.

There is nothing wrong in venerating your Guru but other saints and prophets should also be respected. Only thus can be manifested a perfect love, an universal brotherhood, leading finally in seeing God in all beings.

The prejudice, intolerance, fanatism, sectarianism, should be totally eliminated; these are forms of hate and discrimination between people.

Swami Sivananda-Practice of Meditation

#272

What is there of value to be taken from the Abrahamic religions? The art of crusades and jihads? The science of inquisitions and the skill of mythology?
Or perhaps it is the knowledge of how to beat your wife and make her submit to your carnal desires?

#273

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37469]What is there of value to be taken from the Abrahamic religions? The art of crusades and jihads? The science of inquisitions and the skill of mythology?
Or perhaps it is the knowledge of how to beat your wife and make her submit to your carnal desires?[/QUOTE]

What is there of value to be taken from the Hindu religion? Total subjugation of your women, rape of your children by pedophiles, relagating a large part of your population to the caste of untouchable, rape and intolerance of Christian nuns, and on and on…

Whatever you say about the Abrahamic religions can be reflected back to you on yours.

Or, we can look past the human endeavour and destruction of both and see whatever good has resulted, of which there is much.

That is the last I will comment on this completely ridiculous thread.

#274

The difference is, if course, what I said IS a taught in the Abrahamic scripture itself and sanctioned by the
the Church :wink:

Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire (1694-1774) France’s greatest writers and philosophers, was atheist, and a bitter critic of the Church, which he looked upon as the instigator of cruelty, injustice, and inequality, wrote, in a letter to Frederick the Great (1712–86):

“Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.” Where is the prince sufficiently educated to know that for seventeen hundred years the Christian sect has done nothing but harm?’ “Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.”

“You will notice that in all disputes between Christians since the birth of the Church, Rome has always favored the doctrine which most completely subjugated the human mind and annihilated reason.” “As you know, the Inquisition is an admirable and wholly Christian invention to make the pope and the monks more powerful and turn a whole kingdom into hypocrites.”

In his ‘Philosophical Dictionary’, Voltaire gave a time-defying verdict:

“Pagan religion shed very little blood, while ours flooded the earth with it. Christianity has deluged the earth with blood for the sake of sophisms’.”

About the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic Church in Goa in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, Voltaire in his ‘Fragments of India’s History’ observed: ‘Goa is sadly famous for its Inquistion, which is contrary to humanity as much as to commerce. The Portuguese monks deluded us into believing that the Indian populace was worshipping the Devil, while it is THEY who served him’.

#275

Surya,

The manner in which you write and what your message is is highly offensive. I have stated this in another thread, but one must be responsible for what they say. There is a fine line between being honest and hurtful. You can express your opinion and be honest without using hurtful wording like you did in your above post. You are not acting like a yogi at all. You are not practicing ahimsa at all.

[B][/B]VIOLENCE IS NOT TAUGHT IN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH. IF ONE IS VIOLENT, THEY ARE SO BY THEIR OWN ACCORD. IT IS NOT IN ACCORDANCE TO THE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT???

I have grown tired of your mantras of hatred, inferiority and superiority.

#276

IT IS NOT IN ACCORDANCE TO THE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.

Hmm, correct me if I am wrong but does not the blblical god command genocide, rape, murder, infanticide, blood sacrifices and brutal death of all other religions? :wink:

#277

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37623]Hmm, correct me if I am wrong but does not the blblical god command genocide, rape, murder, infanticide, blood sacrifices and brutal death of all other religions? ;)[/QUOTE]

You’ve been corrected over and over again. You just choose to ignore it. Apparently your eyes are so firmly fixed on your tree you can’t see the forest around you.

#278

Wait a min it is actually a fact that the god of the OT commands genocide, rape, muder and infanticide and thrists for blood sacrifices.

Are you denying this?

Isn’t the OT an essential part of the bible? Isn’t the god of the OT the same god of the NT?

#279

Go pick up a Bible and actually READ it. Absorb the information. Its apparent to any of us who have actually read the religious texts you are pulling quotes from that you have not done this. You are quite able to pull quotes out of the broader context to suit your purpose, but clearly you have not read and digested ANY of the material you purport to understand. When you make it clear that you have actually read the material and not just drawn out bits and pieces in an attempt to start a fight, then I will discuss the Bible with you. Not before.

I’m an English teacher. I teach kids how to support their material, and I teach them about pulling quotes out of context and how it can bite them in the butt.

I’m also a therapist, and it seems clear to me (and everyone else) that you are far too focussed on your own ideals to entertain any true discussion with others. You tear others down to make yourself (or your doctrine) look superior or better. In this case you are doing it by denigrating other people’s belief systems.

You have so much to teach, but far more to learn. A humble and gentle approach gains far more followers than a bombastic and arrogant one. This however is only my opinion, and one I’ve had reinforced by the gentle and humble teachings of Jesus.

And Surya, while this is very much personally directed, I am not trying to be mean to you, but rather to explain why I will not debate religion with you. I am sometimes unclear in my writing when I feel passionately so I am attempting to be very clear about this. Namaste, I will continue to read these threads in the hopes of seeing some true discussion.

#280

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of ?all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses? (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

Is the Christian god some kind of muderous tyrant, sadist and rapist or something? I was shocked to see how many times the bible ordains killing people:

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

  1. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

  2. Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets

  1. Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

  2. But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT