Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

Spirituality Religion
#279

Go pick up a Bible and actually READ it. Absorb the information. Its apparent to any of us who have actually read the religious texts you are pulling quotes from that you have not done this. You are quite able to pull quotes out of the broader context to suit your purpose, but clearly you have not read and digested ANY of the material you purport to understand. When you make it clear that you have actually read the material and not just drawn out bits and pieces in an attempt to start a fight, then I will discuss the Bible with you. Not before.

I’m an English teacher. I teach kids how to support their material, and I teach them about pulling quotes out of context and how it can bite them in the butt.

I’m also a therapist, and it seems clear to me (and everyone else) that you are far too focussed on your own ideals to entertain any true discussion with others. You tear others down to make yourself (or your doctrine) look superior or better. In this case you are doing it by denigrating other people’s belief systems.

You have so much to teach, but far more to learn. A humble and gentle approach gains far more followers than a bombastic and arrogant one. This however is only my opinion, and one I’ve had reinforced by the gentle and humble teachings of Jesus.

And Surya, while this is very much personally directed, I am not trying to be mean to you, but rather to explain why I will not debate religion with you. I am sometimes unclear in my writing when I feel passionately so I am attempting to be very clear about this. Namaste, I will continue to read these threads in the hopes of seeing some true discussion.

#280

God kills 70,000 innocent people because David ordered a census of the people (1 Chronicles 21). God also orders the destruction of 60 cities so that the Israelites can live there. He orders the killing of all the men, women, and children of each city, and the looting of all of value (Deuteronomy 3). He orders another attack and the killing of ?all the living creatures of the city: men and women, young, and old, as well as oxen sheep, and asses? (Joshua 6). In Judges 21, He orders the murder of all the people of Jabesh-gilead, except for the virgin girls who were taken to be forcibly raped and married. When they wanted more virgins, God told them to hide alongside the road and when they saw a girl they liked, kidnap her and forcibly rape her and make her your wife! Just about every other page in the Old Testament has God killing somebody! In 2 Kings 10:18-27, God orders the murder of all the worshipers of a different god in their very own church! In total God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

Is the Christian god some kind of muderous tyrant, sadist and rapist or something? I was shocked to see how many times the bible ordains killing people:

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

  1. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

  2. Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets

  1. Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

  2. But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT

#281

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.” (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all ? old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

Kill Your Neighbors

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, “All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came. He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

The Bible, especially the Old Testament, is filled with numerous stories of animal and human sacrifice. God, we are told, likes the pleasing aroma of burning flesh. Animal sacrifice is much more common than human sacrifice, but both occur and are “pleasing to the Lord”.

Genesis, the first book of the Bible, has Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God. “Take your son, your only son ? yes, Isaac, whom you love so much ? and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you.” (Genesis 22:1-1 Abraham takes his own son up on a mountain and builds an altar upon which to burn him. He even lies to his son and has him help build the altar. Then Abraham ties his son to the altar and puts a knife to his throat. He then hears God tell him this was just a test of his faith. However, God still wanted to smell some burnt flesh so he tells Abraham to burn a ram.

#282

Wow, there is actually a context to justify this? Killing homosexuals? Stoning to death a woman who commit adultry? Burning a woman alive if she is not a virgin when shes married? Killing women and children? Sacrificing animals to please god? Stoning to death people from other religions? Genocide? Murdering people who do not obey the preists?

Have no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

Please do reveal the context :wink:

#283

Surya, you keep regurgitating the same old, same old. You very much need to open your eyes and heart to how you are articulating your points. Can you not find a better way than to copy and paste passage after passage. I do believe someone had stated that there are many translations of the Bible and many have been taken out of context.

And I do believe I said words that were written thousands of years ago have a different meaning today. Everything in proper context.

You are not debating or discussing, but preaching. Again, same old, same old. Use your superior intellect to educate us on things you know first hand such as pranayam or meditation or something other than preaching the ills of the Bible and Abrahamic religions.

Again, you have eyes but do not see. You have ears but do not listen. It would serve you well to open both.

#284

Surya, you keep regurgitating the same old, same old. You very much need to open your eyes and heart to how you are articulating your points. Can you not find a better way than to copy and paste passage after passage. I do believe someone had stated that there are many translations of the Bible and many have been taken out of context.

And I do believe I said words that were written thousands of years ago have a different meaning today. Everything in proper context.

:lol:

So you are saying it does not say kill homosexuals? Stone adulterous women to death? Burn a woman to death if she is not a virgin when shes married? Kill women and children? Sacrifice animals to please god? Stone to death people from other religions? Genocide? Murdering people who do not obey the preists?

What does it say then ? :wink:

#285

Note the topic title: Calm and rational discussion of Abrahamic religions vs Hinduism. The topic title does not say, “Pranayama and Meditation” I will discuss Pranayana and meditation where the topic is about Pranayama and meditation, and the Abrahamic religions vs Hinduism where the topic is about that.

Stop preaching to me what I should or should not discuss. I treat each topic in the same way and discuss with the same intellect and standards of reasoning.

You simply do not like the fact that the religion that you have affinity with is being exposed in public for the barbarity it contains.

A responsible member of their religion is honest about the problems in their religion. I am very honest about modern problems
of casteism with rural Hindus and superstition. Why can you not be honest and admit that your scripture does contain very
barbaric things, and rather than denying it, why don’t you admit that the OT needs to be taken out of the bible. So future
Christians don’t have to read such barbarity.

#286

What does it say then ? ;)[/QUOTE]
Go actually read it. When you have, and you finally realize that there is more to this than things you Google and paste, then you will be able to discuss.

Your cutesie little smileys are sardonic and condescending.

Not once have I seen you quote a single passage from the bible advocating peace, love and tolerance. These are the qualities being shown to you by the Christians who are posting back to you. The quotes you condemn, about fire and brimstone and rigid rules are what you yourself are exemplifying. Perhaps you are an Old Testament Christian and never realized it until now? :wink:

#287

Showing me passages from the bible advocating peace, love and tolerance is not goinng to change the fact it also contains these barbaric things. Is the Christian god schizophrenic or something? One moment he is killing babies, having women raped and conducting genocide on people, and the other is he is loving you?

Do you accept the OT by the way?

#288

Oh give up. It’s hopeless. I have to go teach my class and need to prepare.

#289

Lotusgirl ji,

It is you who needs to give up. You’ve already lost this debate. The bible does indeed contain what I just cited. That in any civilised person’s book is savage and barbarian.

#290

Lets’s not forget the honest words of our man Voltaire:

“Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.” Where is the prince sufficiently educated to know that for seventeen hundred years the Christian sect has done nothing but harm?’ “Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.”

History shows Christianity to be a savage and barbarian religion. Can’t argue with history now :wink:

#291

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37795] Can’t argue with history now ;)[/QUOTE]

Well you can if someone distorts it and takes it out of context but then again…:wink:

of course you are right :cool:

#292

Oh Surya, go back and re-read the posts on this thread please. Then tell us ALL again that we have not made our case. Now I do have to run.

#293

This is not a debate but a calm rational discussion. A discussion is for an open exchange of ideas, not one side trying to prove the other wrong. I wish to know more of Hinduism and not why you may consider it superior. That taints my view of what you say, and gives me no desire to listen. I would like to make my own decisions on what to believe and not feel like I’m being preached too!

#294

What do you want to know about Hinduism?

#295

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;37798]Oh Surya, go back and re-read the posts on this thread please. Then tell us ALL again that we have not made our case. Now I do have to run.[/QUOTE]

I do not think you have made a case for Christianity, if you have, it is a very weak case. I have so far shown very compelling evidence against Christianity

  1. The unmitigated evil in the OT. The OT god is savage and barbarian, ordaining things like genocide, rape, infanticide, murder and laws like stoning to death and burning to death women, and killing people who question preists. I directly cited from the OT. This is the same god of the NT.

  2. I have shown that Christianity has an endless bloody history of crusades, inquisitions, witch burning, genocides.

  3. I have shown that even today Christianity is involved in nefarious missionary activity especially in Asia are engaging in fundamentalist and terrorist activity in places like India, denigrating the native culture. The same is taking place in Iraq.

  4. I have shown that Christianity contains exclusivist doctrines which condemn non believers to eternal hell.

  5. I have shown that Christianity teaches wrong doctrines like people rising up from graves on judgement day and flat and young earth.

  6. I have shown that Jesus was a cult leader. He held arrogant views about himself being the only son of god, the only way and went around collecting followers to worship him. I have also shown that there is no evidence he even existed.

  7. I have shown the major intolerance in Christianity for alternative views by showing how a respectable and famous celebrity like Oprah Winfery gets demonized for teaching new-age views by influencial Christian preachers.

  8. I have shown how Christianity regularly changes what it teaches based on what is popular thus exposing itself as nothing more than a means of political control.

Overall the case I have made against Christianity is very strong and damning.

In response you have just repeatedly said that you know many peace loving Christians and refer to new age and liberal minority sects of Christianity to pretend that Christianity does not do this. Rather than making a case defending Christianity against my arguments, you have made an apology that has often been the same, “This is an isolated case”

#296

“You cannot learn anything if you already feel that you know.”

“Preconceived ideas and prejudices always prevent us from seeing the truth.”

#297

SD,

People have made their case. Over and over again. You interpret Biblical translations to build your case. Even when we have presented you with proof, you dismiss it and find fault with it. There really is no further reason to continue this discussion.

#298

If I may ask another question that will likely go unanswered

Surya Deva

Is English your first language?

This is a serious question and not a disrespectful one. Half of my family does not have English as their first language and many of them do not speak English at all and that, culturally, can cause all sorts of miss understandings of things said, things seen and things written