Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

Spirituality Religion
#44

It is funny how much you miss the point. My point was not that your husband does not have a Masters degree, my point was to show how ridiculous your no-self-doctrine was and how by accepting that doctrine you cannot justify your husbands masters degree and the hard work he put in to get it.

It is obvious that you believe your husband worked his butt off to get his masters and therefore the man who worked his butt off to get his his masters and the man that you know today are both the same person. Therefore there is a continuation of self. Therefore the no-self doctrine is false.

At this point you should reject the no-self doctrine.

Yes you have. Your first sentence said, ‘it’s a general problem’. That is generalizing.
The West is a melting pot of many, if not all religions. You cannot generalize like this.

There is nothing wrong with generalizaing. Academics are doing it all the time. If you make a general statement it states a general truth about something. Yes, the West has many religions, but of those the main religion is Christianity and all other religions are minorities. I was making a general statement about Western civilization that it is dishonest. It does not accept truth right away, everybody who speaks truth gets persecuted. A notable philosopher foucoult has also made this point about the West. In contrast, in Hindu civilisation nobody has ever got persecuted for speaking the truth. Such as been the honesty in this tradition that if you lost in a formal debate, you would accept the winning philosophy. This made it possible for Indian society to develop a widely diverse philosophical tradition with every school you can think of represented. Nobody was afraid to say anything. You could openly debate any idea you wanted.

The West is far behind I am afraid.

#45

You do not see this, nor and I going to spend time trying to convince you but the statement ?The problem with an outsider? is the entire problem with your view?. Like I said? your cup is full.

Namaste,

Nice attempt, but failed. I am not an outsider to Christianity and Islam because I have actually studied these religions. I have a copy of the bible at home for petes sake.

#46

I’m not a religious person so faith has always been quite fascinating to me. Would you describe what Surya Deva has in regards to Hinduism as faith?

To everyone:

I’m sincerely not really sure what it is about Surya Deva that bothers everyone so much. Maybe because I’m not religious and therefore don’t feel like something I believe in is being attacked?

The PM’s and reported posts I get are sometimes full of so much anger. I honestly don’t see where it comes from. Is it because he is uncompromising in his views and believes so strongly in Hinduism that everything else is wrong? If so, I honestly don’t see what’s wrong with that? Intolerant? Maybe, but I don’t see malice behind that. I just see uncompromising belief that can’t be swayed. Why try to move an immovable rock?

#47

I cannot force you to accept Hinduism. I can only show you Hinduism is superior and right on everything. It is then your choice whether you want to hold onto inferior, out of date and false religions and move onto superior religions.

I never force anybody to do anything. It is not the Hindu way to force anybody.

Tolerance can be a part of any religion or faith.

Nope, the Abrahamic religions have historically shown they are not tolerant, and they are not tolerant today either. These religions very publically proclaim everybody else is condemned and is going to hell. What tolerance are you speaking of?

#48

[quote=Surya Deva;35669]I cannot force you to accept Hinduism. I can only show you Hinduism is superior and right on everything. It is then your choice whether you want to hold onto inferior, out of date and false religions and move onto superior religions.

I never force anybody to do anything. It is not the Hindu way to force anybody.[/quote]
If you’re not trying to force Hinduism upon anyone, what is your purpose for discussing all of this; what is your goal? To educate people of your perspective so that people can then make their own decisions? Or something else?

#49

Namaste David,

I have no goal other than rational discussion of my viewpoint in this thread and arguing my viewpoint with evidence and reason - which everybody else is entitled to as well. This is what this thread is suppose to be about right? “Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions” Although it is not necessarily calm because my view itself is considered offensive by so many people that Hinduism is a superior religion. However, this is my view, and this is exactly my proposition in this debate. It would be more healthy for this discussion if people stop attacking me for holding this view, and instead engage with my view by either finding out why I maintain this view or refute it. I think the main problem, however is, because this view is so stong and supported by evidence, they are finding it hard to argue against.

I mean can we really defend the Abrahamic religions from the charge of intolerance and giving false statements which fly in the face of science, such as the earth being flat and people rising from their graves?

#50

Thank you David for your gentle words.

I really don’t think that anyone is trying to ‘change Surya Deva’s’ mind regarding his religion. What we all want is to have an open honest discussion without such words as ‘superior, the only way, you are wrong’ etc. I think we all enjoy sharing opposing viewpoints and have learned much from this. Most all celebrate diversity in our cultures and religious beliefs. We all have a common bond that links us all, and it’s called yoga.
No one likes to be told that their religious belief is wrong or stupid. It is all in how it is presented. Have I been a little angel, no. I have let myself get frustrated in trying to help him understand where ‘the rest of us are coming from’. I did not, however, deserve the words that were thrown at me.

You are correct, why try to move an unmovable rock? This is good advice, but again, I don’t see anyone trying to change his mind. I know I just want acceptance of my views. They may be different than his, but they are my truth and what I live by.

#51

[QUOTE=David;35668]I’m sincerely not really sure what it is about Surya Deva that bothers everyone so much. Maybe because I’m not religious and therefore don’t feel like something I believe in is being attacked?

The PM’s and reported posts I get are sometimes full of so much anger. I honestly don’t see where it comes from. Is it because he is uncompromising in his views and believes so strongly in Hinduism that everything else is wrong? If so, I honestly don’t see what’s wrong with that? Intolerant? Maybe, but I don’t see malice behind that. I just see uncompromising belief that can’t be swayed. Why try to move an immovable rock?[/QUOTE]

I’m wondering the same. Not only with regards to this forum and SD but also other places I visit. From time to time I like to watch on youtube clips by “enlightened” fundamentalists (e.g. christian or muslim priests). There is something relevant there for me. For long time I was wondering why I like to listen to such clearly offensive and insane rubbish. Now I think maybe because part of me agrees with them? That I missed some things on the way to be beyond aggression and prejudice?

I remember a story in “Brothers Karamazov” by Dostoyevsky: the devil sharing his sentiment. That sometimes he looks at old, fat women lighting candles in church with mundane wishes. The devil wished he would be like that - to forget about everything and just be such old woman with her simple life and a candle in church…

So maybe this anger is because SD is waking up the shadow that people would prefer to forget and get rid of? Such things as being totally right, arrogant, offensive etc? And they would wish to be like that but they don’t accept it and that is the source of frustration and anger?

#52

I know I just want acceptance of my views. They may be different than his, but they are my truth and what I live by.

And they maybe plain wrong :smiley:

Your position is relaivism. Fine. This is your position in this debate. Then argue for it, defend it and refute the opposing position. However, you cannot expect everybody here to accept your position just like that.

But sorry if somebody comes and tells me there will come a day where everybody will rise out of their grave and stand judgement before god, I am going to call that stupid. What else can I call that? Do you accept me to just say, “Oh okay then”

#53

Sounds fair to me. The evidence and reason you (and others arguing their viewpoint) provide is greatly appreciated. I’ve learned more about Hinduism and other religions in this and like threads than any class I’ve ever taken. It’s fascinating.

But that’s him being open and honest about how he feels. If you REALLY want an open and honest discussion with someone, you have to be prepared for exactly that :slight_smile:

There is MUCH to be learned in these threads. It’s incredible! I thank all of you who have the strength to take part.

[quote=lotusgirl;35672]No one likes to be told that their religious belief is wrong or stupid. It is all in how it is presented.

I know I just want acceptance of my views. They may be different than his, but they are my truth and what I live by.[/quote]
I hear ya. sigh Believe me, I hear you. I want to be accepted as well. I’m slowly learning that [B]I can’t expect to be accepted[/B] or I will be disappointed over and over. My guru tells me to tear open my heart to the world knowing I will be hurt time and time again. But… it hurts :frowning:

#54

I think this illusion of the tolerance of Abrahamic religions needs to be further exposed.
You all know who Oprah Winfry is correct? One of the most powerful and influencial women in America. Recently, Oprah Winfrey has been decried as the most dangerous women in America and called a minion of Satan. Her crime? Her crime is that she says there are many ways to god.

This is one of the most famous and powerful preachers of America, who decries Oprah and then decries another pastor who made a similar statement. This preacher tells his audience, “I will have punched him out” to applause in the audience:

Look at how massive that audience is. Are they tolerant? Hell no.

This is the true face of Christianity.

#55

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35679]This is the true face of Christianity.[/QUOTE]

Namaste Surya,

This is not the true face of Christianity. Just as Muslim terrorists/ extremists are not the true face of Islam.

Yes, the audience is large, but I for one would not have supported this group! I would have walked away, as a Christian.

Yes, I believe my religious beliefs are right, but I am still tolerant and respectful of anyone who do not share my beliefs…and trust me I am trying!

#56

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35679]I think this illusion of the tolerance of Abrahamic religions needs to be further exposed.
You all know who Oprah Winfry is correct? One of the most powerful and influencial women in America. Recently, Oprah Winfrey has been decried as the most dangerous women in America and called a minion of Satan. Her crime? Her crime is that she says there are many ways to god.

This is one of the most famous and powerful preachers of America, who decries Oprah and then decries another pastor who made a similar statement. This preacher tells his audience, “I will have punched him out” to applause in the audience:

Look at how massive that audience is. Are they tolerant? Hell no.

This is the true face of Christianity.[/QUOTE]

Actually you can’t judge anything by what you see on American TV really… just a bit of advice… as to Oprah… never forget it is just Harpo spelled backwards… and she is not as important to things America as she would like to think… she is a well paid (very well paid) talk show host

As to Benny Hinn… He is not all that famous and as for powerful… I would say not at all… he is what we call a TV evangelist.

#57

Surya Deva,

If I understand correctly, the region we call Pakistan was once part of India but it is now a Muslim state with the Kashmir region being one of the most disputed territories in the world. Why would Muslims living in India feel the need to have their own country? Was that a peaceful process in your opinion? Why is Kashmir still so disputed. And why does India feel the need to have nuclear weapons?

I realize Hindus believe in “just” wars against evil. Maybe these other religions believe in “just” wars against evil too. The problem is, each religion thinks the other is wrong and therefore preaching evil. Are you SURE that Hindus are tolerant?

#58

[QUOTE=David;35682]Surya Deva,

If I understand correctly, the region we call Pakistan was once part of India but it is now a Muslim state with the Kashmir region being one of the most disputed territories in the world. Why would Muslims living in India feel the need to have their own country? Was that a peaceful process in your opinion? Why is Kashmir still so disputed. And why does India feel the need to have nuclear weapons?

I realize Hindus believe in “just” wars against evil. Maybe these other religions believe in “just” wars against evil too. The problem is, each religion thinks the other is wrong and therefore preaching evil. Are you SURE that Hindus are tolerant?[/QUOTE]

And where do the Shikhs fit in in this mess?

#59

Here is another TV evangelist saying Oprah is leading people to hell. He says Christianity is a religion where people accept only the bible as truth(as he says pointing to the book) and nothing else and Jesus as the lord and saviour:

I think we should stop kidding ourselves and accept this is exactly what the Christian religion believes. This is exactly what lead to the violence, crusades, genocide and death and destruction in the past.

#60

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35688]Here is another TV evangelist saying Oprah is leading people to hell. He says Christianity is a religion where people accept only the bible as truth(as he says pointing to the book) and nothing else and Jesus as the lord and saviour:

I think we should stop kidding ourselves and accept this is exactly what the Christian religion believes. This is exactly what lead to the violence, crusades, genocide and death and destruction in the past.[/QUOTE]

You do realize this is hurting your credibility more than helping?

#61

[QUOTE=David;35682]Surya Deva,

If I understand correctly, the region we call Pakistan was once part of India but it is now a Muslim state with the Kashmir region being one of the most disputed territories in the world. Why would Muslims living in India feel the need to have their own country? Was that a peaceful process in your opinion? Why is Kashmir still so disputed. And why does India feel the need to have nuclear weapons?

I realize Hindus believe in “just” wars against evil. Maybe these other religions believe in “just” wars against evil too. The problem is, each religion thinks the other is wrong and therefore preaching evil. Are you SURE that Hindus are tolerant?[/QUOTE]

The paritition was an unfortunate event in the history of India. This is more to do with politics than religion. The British were largely behind doing this partition and the Muslim leader Jinnah actually called for this partition. Hindus did not want this partition, but Gandhi was forced to do it from pressure from the British and other parties. It was a very bloody event, as Hindus and Sikhs that were forced to leave Pakistan were butchered and trains coming from Pakistan into India were full of butchered bodies of Hindus and Sikhs. This lead to massive communal riots in India as well between Hindus and Muslims.

However, by comparison the genocide of Hindus in Pakistan by Muslims was much more extreme, many were killed. On the other hand, the majority of the Muslims stayed back in India.

This partition did not have to happen if the Muslims could have co-existed with the Hindus. However, they did not want to co-exist. Hindus had no problem co-existing with them, because they have been doing for that 1000 years. Hindus have really suffered tremendously at the hands of Muslims. The death toll reported of Hindus over Muslim occupation is estimated by some to be as high as 50 million Hindus. The Muslims were incredibly brutal and would have Hindus killed in tens of thousands in a single day.

This world has suffered terribly from the curse of the Abrahamic religions. I feel more sorry for the Native Americans and the Australian aborgines than I do the Hindus. At least we were not exterminated.

#62

Your position is relaivism. Fine. This is your position in this debate. Then argue for it, defend it and refute the opposing position. However, you cannot expect everybody here to accept your position just like that.

I am not in these discussions to argue. I have my views. Sometimes I share my views. Sometimes people agree and sometimes they don’t. The difference here is when I share how I feel and why it is attacked with words that I frankly think offensive. This does nothing to promote meaningful discussion. When I hear someone say to me you are wrong, or your belief is stupid, I know better than to try to express my views because they are in a ‘closed mindset’. They really don’t want to hear what I have to say as they are already formulating their argument against me. At this point, real learning has stopped. This is why I chose not to debate you Surya when you use offensive words. Truth or not. The truth does not need to be sugar coated, but it can be presented with kindness and respect.

But that’s him being open and honest about how he feels. If you REALLY want an open and honest discussion with someone, you have to be prepared for exactly that

Being open and honest is one thing. Being careless with words is another. I do want open and honest discussion, but the words being used are not kind ones or respectful ones or what I would expect from a devout Hindu who is intelligent. Should I be prepared for that when entering a discussion. Yes. But it is my choice to not further engage due to my reasons as stated above.

So maybe this anger is because SD is waking up the shadow that people would prefer to forget and get rid of? Such things as being totally right, arrogant, offensive etc? And they would wish to be like that but they don’t accept it and that is the source of frustration and anger?

Interesting perspective Pawel. Are you saying that some wish to be totally right, arrogant and offensive? Or that deep down we are, trying to repress it and get angry and frustrated when confronted with the same?

#63

[QUOTE=Yulaw;35692]You do realize this is hurting your credibility more than helping?[/QUOTE]

I don’t have to worry about credibility. I let the evidence speak for itself. So far I have shown conclusively that both Christianity and Islam are intolerant religions and have historically been full of violence to other religions.

You and nobody else have been able to refute my point. In fact on the contrary Lotusgirl even accepted it was true.

Now show me the historical violence Hinduism has done to other religions? If not then you will have to accept my point that Hinduism is the only true tolerant religion and Abrahamic religions are intolerant.