Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

Spirituality Religion
#61

[QUOTE=David;35682]Surya Deva,

If I understand correctly, the region we call Pakistan was once part of India but it is now a Muslim state with the Kashmir region being one of the most disputed territories in the world. Why would Muslims living in India feel the need to have their own country? Was that a peaceful process in your opinion? Why is Kashmir still so disputed. And why does India feel the need to have nuclear weapons?

I realize Hindus believe in “just” wars against evil. Maybe these other religions believe in “just” wars against evil too. The problem is, each religion thinks the other is wrong and therefore preaching evil. Are you SURE that Hindus are tolerant?[/QUOTE]

The paritition was an unfortunate event in the history of India. This is more to do with politics than religion. The British were largely behind doing this partition and the Muslim leader Jinnah actually called for this partition. Hindus did not want this partition, but Gandhi was forced to do it from pressure from the British and other parties. It was a very bloody event, as Hindus and Sikhs that were forced to leave Pakistan were butchered and trains coming from Pakistan into India were full of butchered bodies of Hindus and Sikhs. This lead to massive communal riots in India as well between Hindus and Muslims.

However, by comparison the genocide of Hindus in Pakistan by Muslims was much more extreme, many were killed. On the other hand, the majority of the Muslims stayed back in India.

This partition did not have to happen if the Muslims could have co-existed with the Hindus. However, they did not want to co-exist. Hindus had no problem co-existing with them, because they have been doing for that 1000 years. Hindus have really suffered tremendously at the hands of Muslims. The death toll reported of Hindus over Muslim occupation is estimated by some to be as high as 50 million Hindus. The Muslims were incredibly brutal and would have Hindus killed in tens of thousands in a single day.

This world has suffered terribly from the curse of the Abrahamic religions. I feel more sorry for the Native Americans and the Australian aborgines than I do the Hindus. At least we were not exterminated.

#62

Your position is relaivism. Fine. This is your position in this debate. Then argue for it, defend it and refute the opposing position. However, you cannot expect everybody here to accept your position just like that.

I am not in these discussions to argue. I have my views. Sometimes I share my views. Sometimes people agree and sometimes they don’t. The difference here is when I share how I feel and why it is attacked with words that I frankly think offensive. This does nothing to promote meaningful discussion. When I hear someone say to me you are wrong, or your belief is stupid, I know better than to try to express my views because they are in a ‘closed mindset’. They really don’t want to hear what I have to say as they are already formulating their argument against me. At this point, real learning has stopped. This is why I chose not to debate you Surya when you use offensive words. Truth or not. The truth does not need to be sugar coated, but it can be presented with kindness and respect.

But that’s him being open and honest about how he feels. If you REALLY want an open and honest discussion with someone, you have to be prepared for exactly that

Being open and honest is one thing. Being careless with words is another. I do want open and honest discussion, but the words being used are not kind ones or respectful ones or what I would expect from a devout Hindu who is intelligent. Should I be prepared for that when entering a discussion. Yes. But it is my choice to not further engage due to my reasons as stated above.

So maybe this anger is because SD is waking up the shadow that people would prefer to forget and get rid of? Such things as being totally right, arrogant, offensive etc? And they would wish to be like that but they don’t accept it and that is the source of frustration and anger?

Interesting perspective Pawel. Are you saying that some wish to be totally right, arrogant and offensive? Or that deep down we are, trying to repress it and get angry and frustrated when confronted with the same?

#63

[QUOTE=Yulaw;35692]You do realize this is hurting your credibility more than helping?[/QUOTE]

I don’t have to worry about credibility. I let the evidence speak for itself. So far I have shown conclusively that both Christianity and Islam are intolerant religions and have historically been full of violence to other religions.

You and nobody else have been able to refute my point. In fact on the contrary Lotusgirl even accepted it was true.

Now show me the historical violence Hinduism has done to other religions? If not then you will have to accept my point that Hinduism is the only true tolerant religion and Abrahamic religions are intolerant.

#64

There is no disputing that horrible events have transpired in the name of religions. But I tend to think that it is not the fault of the religion. The vast majority of religions ARE peaceful and a means to something great. The problem is, us humans then get involved and manipulate the words of the religion to fulfill our (sometimes horrible) ambitions and desires. Maybe Hinduism hasn’t taken that route thanks to yoga and it helping to overcome those very things.

All in all, us humans? We kinda suck. We can point fingers all day long. But in the end, if we evaluate ourselves honestly on a scale of destructiveness, we all pretty much suck. Hindus, muslims, christians, you name it. We’re all incredibly destructive.

#65

David,

Can you tell me how humans have manipulated these words:

2:190-193 “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you … And slay them wherever ye catch them … And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God …”

2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not.”

2:224 “Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things.”

3:157-158 “And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together.”

3:169 “Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.”

3:195 “… Those who have … fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God …”

4:101 “… For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.”

9:5 “… fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) …”

If you read the Quran and the Hadiths(history of Mohammed) You will be shocked at the violence, brutality you will find.

Now with Christianity it is very difficult to find similar justification for violence, but what we cannot overlook Christianity contains doctrines of a chosen people and by default everybody is condemned.

Abrahamic history is full of violence because these religions itself contain violent doctrines.

In any case my point is not to just keeping pointing my fingers at these religions for the destruction they have brought on this planet, but to show that these are obviously false religions that should have been long rejected by civilised humans.

You point out rightfully that Hinduism because it has Yoga it does not have a history of violence. This means it is a more enlightened religion. Yes, a superior religion.

#66

[QUOTE=Yulaw;35664]Interesting statement because anyone could start the same way in defense of any religion

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Catholicism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Buddhism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Muslimism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Shinto they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Taoism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Protestantism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Judaism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Christianity they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into Confucianism they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

The problem with an outsider when they are look into the Rastafari movement they see only the external form of it and a slice of it in time, then they are quite shocked by what they see. Until, they become familiar with what the forms actually mean.

You do not see this, nor and I going to spend time trying to convince you but the statement “The problem with an outsider” is the entire problem with your view…. Like I said… your cup is full.[/QUOTE]

Your post should have put a cork in it. But no. He keeps plodding on.

:smiley:

and he’s an atheist touting his “religion”

which is also funny.

The Almighty God is self Evident. So. Anyone claiming to be an atheist is a hopeless hole dwelling devil - for the time being.

Also meaning of Christ.
is the meaning of Krishna.

Khrist. Krishna.

Krishna consciousness/ Khrist consciousness.

Same.

Put that in the Pipe and smoke on it.

“And if thy eye be single thy body will be full of light!”

The only problem with a religion is when some nefarious persons/people corrupt it.

Like the church back in the day. Stripping out the Yoga. For this they pay the price.

#67

How women should be treated in Islam according to the Quran:

:34 Husbands should take full care of their wives, with [the bounties] God has given to some more than others and with what they spend out of their own money. Righteous wives are devout and guard what God would have them guard in the husbands’ absence. If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then beat them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem)

#68

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35636]Namaste Prasad,

The Western man is arrogant and believes that he can construct truth. He constructs truth according to his bias, needs and interests. This is what Lotusgirl really means by saying “Everybody has their own truth” However, we know clearly that this is bogus. Of course there is truth. We know this entire universe is governed by knowable principles and laws of cause and effect that we can observe and use to make scientific predictions.

If we compare Hinduism and Christianity side by side we can see which one is correct and which one is incorrect.

Hinduism says that the Earth is shaped like a sphere and rotates on its axis and goes around orbit around the sun held by the attraction of the sun. Christianity says that the Earth is flat, at the centre of the universe, and the sun goes around the Earth(In Islam it is taught the sun goes into the sea at night)

Hinduism says that the universe is constantly expanding and contracting over trillions of years and is consists of innumerable solar systems. It says the Earth is approx 4 billion years old and human civilisation is hundresds of thousands of years old. Christianity says all of creation was made in 7 days.

Hinduism says that the human being has evolved first from chemical processes where heat and water combined, then from single celled organisms to more complex organisms, then to humans. Christianity teaches that the first human was Adam, from his rib was created Eve.

Hindusm says that we commit wrong actions because our intellect become clouded by desires and attachments which leads to anxiety, fear and anger, and thence wrong perception. Christianity teaches that we are born sinners because Adam and Eve went against god’s word and ate an apple from a forbidden tree.

Hinduism says that in order for us to end our personal suffering, we must purify our mind through the practice of Yoga and meditation, whereby we can become happy, peaceful and loving beings. Christianity teaches that we can go to a place called heaven if we accept Jesus as our lord and saviour. Just accepting Jesus is enough to be accepted in heaven.

Hinduism says that the soul merely associates with a body, and at the time of sleep and death, the soul disassociates from the body and enters the mind, where it temporarily is subject to mental projections, and then returns back to the/a body. This cycle continues until the soul has exhausted its desires. Christianity teaches that there will be a judgement day where everbody will rise from the grave and stand judgement before god.

Hinduism teaches that an impersonal law of cause and effect(karma) governs every action and reaction. That is because every action produces a memory of the action which is stored in our unconscious mind, which are triggered by stimuli in the world. Christianity teaches that every action is noted by god sitting on his throne in heaven and he rewards you with eternal life or punishes you with eternal damnation on judgement day.

Hinduism teaches that we are all potentially divine beings and must actualise our potential through the refinement of our thoughts, actions and speech in this life. Christianity teaches that we are all sinners, we must atone for our sins by accepting Jesus as the way, life and truth, and gain a place in heaven. In this place we are still lower than Jesus(the son) and the heirarchy of angels.

Hinduism teaches that we must both know and live in accordance with the laws of the universe in order to be prosperous. Christianity teaches that we must follow the 10 commandments, one of them which is that god is jealous and does not want any other god before him.

It is easy to see which religion is true and which religion is false.[/QUOTE]
well your generalizations of christianity may be false. some christians may teach that, yes, but do all? I have read the bible a bit and my interpretations of what jesus said may be different. Jesus said, “I and the father are one” in the bible there are also scripture of the hand and foot all being of the one body of God. in yoga there is only one self. Jesus said “the kingdom of God lies within” does not sound as if we must wait till heaven. hesus also said “the things I do ye shall do also and greater then these” so he was talking about sidhis? we can do them too? the followers of christ, just as you have said you plan to follow a master, at times may have misinterpreted what he said, then wrote their interpretation down and now we have the bible. You may at times misinterpret too

also, as you have talked about karma and cuase and effect, and science. The God, or self as you call it is beyond all things. Science, cause and effect only goes so far. Budha said himself, “chaos is inherent in all compounded things, strive on with diligence.” what does he mean, if it were only cause and effect then there would be no chaos for scientifically A+B=C.

look at th4 TAO where it says “if it is good or bad, that is not it”, so if it is karma, that is not it, if it is science, that is not it.

to categorize all christians based on a limited perspective would be like saying all hindus are like you. “humility is the key to the kingdom of God”

#69

Hi Surya Deva,

Can you tell me how humans have manipulated these words:

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you … And slay them wherever ye catch them … And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God …"
it’s done be leaving relevant stuff out. It’s really no big deal to quote the whole three suras, but they’re cut down on purpose. Here’s the full quote:

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
You see that it sounds very differently now, like just war, as the Bhagavad Gita recommends it too. Christianity, via Jesus in the New Testament, even suggest not to fight back.

Is it not obvious, the words are manipulated? It is. Not that you’d care, though. :wink:

#70

Namaste Brother Neil,

I think you are in denial. These are indeed the main beliefs of the religion called Christianity. Christian Gnosticism is considered heretical. The bible may well be an misinterpretation of what Jesus originally taught, but nonetheless that is what went onto become the religion of Christianity.

In any case even the Christian Gnostic scriptures are inferior when it comes to the vast literature in Hinduism which turn gnoticism into a science. You will benefit more from reading the Yogasutras or the Bhagvad Gita than you will from reading any Christian scripture. So again my point holds true that Hinduism is a superior religion. Why consume you something of inferior quality when you can have superior quality? The sensible person knows that Hinduism is the only religion that can actually help them. Besides you are already half-way to becoming Hindu through doing Yoga.

You are doing our religious practice of Yoga because you know it is the only one that works. If your practices worked you would not have been doing Yoga. We understand the science of spirituality better than anybody else on this planet. We are unsurpassed when it comes to this. This is why it is our Yoga, Ayurveda and Vedanta that the world wants. Barely any civilised person cares about what Christian or Islamic scripture says, because most of it is outdated nonsense. However, when they read the Gita, then they get real satisfaction.

#71

[quote=Surya Deva;35703]David,

Can you tell me how humans have manipulated these words:[/quote]
Quetzalcoatl said it better than I could. Mistranslation, translation to support ones ambitions, you name it. At their base, most religions are beautiful. Then egotistical humans come along :frowning:

It’s not the religions. It’s us.

#72

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;35710]Hi Surya Deva,

it’s done be leaving relevant stuff out. It’s really no big deal to quote the whole three suras, but they’re cut down on purpose. Here’s the full quote:

You see that it sounds very differently now, like just war, as the Bhagavad Gita recommends it too. Christianity, via Jesus in the New Testament, even suggest not to fight back.

Is it not obvious, the words are manipulated? It is. Not that you’d care, though. ;)[/QUOTE]

Actually it does not sound different at all. It says stop fighting them when they desist and convert to the religion of Allah. In other words you either convert or perish.

I have read the Quran, thank you very much. I know that the Quran says.

#73

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35695]I don’t have to worry about credibility. I let the evidence speak for itself. So far I have shown conclusively that both Christianity and Islam are intolerant religions and have historically been full of violence to other religions.

You and nobody else have been able to refute my point. In fact on the contrary Lotusgirl even accepted it was true.

Now show me the historical violence Hinduism has done to other religions? If not then you will have to accept my point that Hinduism is the only true tolerant religion and Abrahamic religions are intolerant.[/QUOTE]

I am not trying to show you anything about Hinduism or its violence, nor would I try

The problem is the evidence you are presenting in this case, televangelists, is not credible. There is nothing to refute nor would I waste my time trying to refute anything you are saying, as I have said, your cup is full. Even if presented with proof you would either deny its validity or simply ignore it.

I am just trying to give you some friendly advice as to the type of proof you are currently presenting as irrefutable. Many in the US do not take televangelists all that seriously and as for Oprah, bottom-line she is an entertainer. Using televangelists as proof or basing an argument on Oprah is much the same as using any number of gossip publications in the US as proof that Elvis is alive.

#74

ELVIS IS ALIVE?! There IS a god! WOO!

#75

Yulaw, seriously I don’t need to provide that much proof on how destuctive the Abrahamic religions have been and how hundreds of of millions of people have been slaughtered by them. The doctrines they hold onto which condemn people. The extermination of indigenious people in other lands. This is a historical fact. The televangelists are just further proof of how intolerant these religions are.

You are in denial, it is so obvious :smiley:

These religions should have been long rejected.

#76

[quote=surya deva;35711]namaste brother neil,

i think you are in denial. blah blah blahthese are indeed the main beliefs of the religion called christianity. Christian gnosticism is considered heretical. The bible may well be an misinterpretation of what jesus originally taught, but nonetheless that is what went onto become the religion of christianity.

In any case even the christian gnostic scriptures are inferior when it comes to the vast literature in hinduism which turn gnoticism into a science. You will benefit more from reading the yogasutras or the bhagvad gita than you will from reading any christian scriptu blah blah blah again my point holds true that hinduism is a superior religion. Why consume you something of inferior quality when you can have superior quality? The sensible person knows that hinduism is the only religion that can actually help them. Besides you are already half-way to becoming hindu through doing yoga.
blah blah blah
you are doing our religious practice of yoga because you know it is the only one that works. If your practices worked you would not have been doing yoga. We understand the science of spirituality better than anybody else on this planet. We are unsurpassed when it comes to this. This is why it is our yoga, ayurveda and vedanta that the world wants. Barely any civilised person cares about what christian or islamic scripture says, because most of it is outdated nonsense. However, when they read the gita, then they get real satisfaction.[/quote]
blah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blah

AND YOU ARE ALWAYS TIRED BECAUSE?

#77

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35717]Yulaw, seriously I don’t need to provide that much proof on how destuctive the Abrahamic religions have been and how hundreds of of millions of people have been slaughtered by them. The doctrines they hold onto which condemn people. The extermination of indigenious people in other lands. This is a historical fact. The televangelists are just further proof of how intolerant these religions are.

You are in denial, it is so obvious :smiley:

These religions should have been long rejected.[/QUOTE]

Since I am not trying to defend anything I do not see how I am denying anything. If you wish to use as your proof like televangelists so be it.

#78

You and nobody else have been able to refute my point. In fact on the contrary Lotusgirl even accepted it was true.

You conveniently left out the rest of my comments when you said I accepted it as true. I have listed it below.

Now Surya, this is good discussion! Thank you.

But I am not saying that Islam or Christianity has not had their share of violence. In their beliefs, they felt justified in using violence to further their cause. But true Christians know that this is not what the Bible teaches. Many have misinterpreted and skewed its teachings. I guess my point in citing the Gita was does ANY violence justify further violence? One can always justify. Violence is violence, regardless. Was it justified for the US to go into Iraq? Was Saddham Hussein guilty of mass genocide? Yes he was. But we are no better if we use violence to combat violence. It keeps the cycle going which is counterproductive to producing peace

Every religion has a history of violence. Hinduism is no different. You say it is in retaliation. Understandable. But it is still violence no matter how justified. Each religion has felt justification using violence for the greater good. Violence is never for the greater good.

#79

[QUOTE=David;35715]ELVIS IS ALIVE?! There IS a god! WOO![/QUOTE]

Yes and he is in Montana running a Stuckey’s with Janis Joplin and Bruce Lee:D

#80

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;35720]You conveniently left out the rest of my comments when you said I accepted it as true. I have listed it below.

Every religion has a history of violence. Hinduism is no different. You say it is in retaliation. Understandable. But it is still violence no matter how justified. Each religion has felt justification using violence for the greater good. Violence is never for the greater good.[/QUOTE]

Then point out this violence within Hinduism where Hindus have killed and persecuted non-Hindus. Show me the Hindu inquisitions, witch burning, jihads, crusades and extermination of native people.

You have a long history to look through 7000BCE to 10000AD when India was under Hindu rule.

I’m waiting :slight_smile: