Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

Spirituality Religion
#81

again, buhda came to a point where he left all teaching behind and sat by a tree, jesus left it all behind and went to the desert, nithyananda said he came to a time where all teaching were dropped. these accounts of so called masters cannot be disputed. so what is the science behind leaving all teachings behind?.

i am hindu or becoming hindu? call it what you will. I do yoga postures and breathing for the body, it makes sense to stretch and breath, I also got to do somethng to pass the time, where will it get me, i dont now. I try to eat better because it makes logical sense. So, what do I belive hinduism? in a way I have no beliefs but then again i believe to live and let live and take care of yourself as best you can.

time to go surf
brother Neil

#82

Surya, All I’m saying is violence has been around since humans have. Did Hindu’s persecute non-hindus?

11/19/2007 13:25
INDIA
In under a year over 190 cases of Hindu persecution of Christians

by Nirmala Carvalho
A report by All India Catholic Union, into anti Christian persecution gathered data with the aid of leading National groups. The report underlines widespread marginalisation of non Hindus, and government apathy which protects aggressors. New Delhi (AsiaNews) – In less than one year over 190 violent attacks against Christians took place in India. These assaults include homicide, armed assault, sexual molestation and lynching, All India Catholic Union (Aicu), an association grouping together lay Catholics warned in a document published November 17th last.
Aicu President, John Dayal, underlines that data was collected tank to the collaboration of various Christian groups throughout the country, and that cases were Christians were attacked for reasons other than their faith were not taken into account. Therefore says Dayal, “the cases that were presented and certified fall into the category of persecution. We have not taken into consideration the situation of social marginalisation of our many brethren in the faith in many Indian States, because it would be impossible to count them”.
Sajan K. George, national president of the Bangalore based Global Council of Indian Christians told AsiaNews: “GCIC has recorded 464 cases of atrocities against Christians throughout India over 20 months and Karnataka has the worst record in this period with 87 cases, followed by Madhya Pradesh with 30 cases”. In the light of this data he adds “submitted a memorandum to memorandum to the National Human Rights Council and also to the State Human Rights Commission (SHRC), seeking an independent inquiry into the incidents. After the BJP came into the coalition- and they are now in power, there has been a climate of impunity for any acts of violence that are committed against non Hindus. Many of these attacks have occurred inside homes in the places of worship of Christians, as people were worshipping within the privacy of their homes and churches”. Often he concludes, “Often the Administration and Police have refused to either file or pursue the matter with seriousness. Unfortunately in our 60th year of Indian Independence, the government as yet has done little to bring these hate crimes under control” Source.
India Police And Hindu Militants Besiege Christian Convention

Added: Oct 22nd, 2007 4:32 AM
By BosNewsLife News Center with BosNewsLife’ Stefan J. Bos
NEW DELHI, INDIA (BosNewsLife) — Police forces and Hindu militants interrupted a major Christian convention in India’s state of Chhattisgarh and forced a pastor to hand over names of people who “accepted Christ”, a Christian official told BosNewsLife Sunday, October 21.
Police and Hindu militants attempted to storm the “59th General Convention [of the] Church of God held in the church” in [the area of] Rajatalab Raipur in the vicinity of state’s capital Raipur, said Sajan George, National President of the Global Council of Indian Christians (GCIC), a major advocacy group.
Hindu persecution campaign targets pastor

The recent attack involved an estimated 35 Hindu radicals and happened while he was returning from the home of a convert he’d been ministering to, according to VOM contacts in India.
“He was beaten with thick sticks, kicked on his jaw and face and dragged on the road,” according to statements obtained by VOM from witnesses. “He was screaming because of the pain and praying out loud, asking God to forgive the attackers.
“He was bleeding profusely from his jaw and ear, and was unable to see. In spite of his painful cries, the attackers continued striking him until the police arrived and stopped the beating,” the sources reported.
He remains alive only because of that reluctant intervention, because VOM sources reported that after the attack it was discovered the extremists planned to murder him, then make a false report claiming he had died in an automobile accident.
The pastor, who had come to Christ in 1999 from a background of Hindu extremism, has brought a number of people in his region to Christ since that time, VOM sources reported. At the same time, he was being threatened with “dire consequences” for being a Christian, the news from VOM confirmed.

This is as recent as 2007. Hinduism does have less of a history of violence then others, but they still have violence in their history.

#83

Namaste Lotus girl,

This is not Hinduism. I told you to look for the history of violence in Hinduism from 7000BCE to 1000AD because this is when India was under Hindu rule.

This is Hindutva which is a political and nationalist group, which is inspired by Western fascism, particularly Nazism. It came into formation the mid 20th century in order to fight for independence of Hindu India. These Indian leaders actually paid visits to Germany and Italy in order to get inspiration from them.

The reason you will not be able to find violence for Hinduism is because there was never an institutionalized religion called Hinduism. There is no clergy or authority to ordain anything in Hinduism.

#84

Surya, can you not assume the same for other religions then? The radicals within the religion using violence, while the majority does not. I think so!

#85

No Lotusgirl, I cannot, because these other religions are indeed institutionalized, they do have clergys and clergies did indeed ordain religious violence in order to convert others by the sword. This has ordained by the highest authority in these religions like popes for Christianity and Caliphs in Islam.

The fact remains that these religions actually contain doctrines that condemn non believers directly to be found in their scriptures. You cannot separate the two.

Inquisitions, crusades, jihads, witch burning have all been ordained by highest religious authorities.

In Hinduism there is no such religious authority because it is based on personal spirituality. Another reason why it is superior.

#86

From My Islam Brother . . . Ikota.

“[I]they key is understanding historical context…the Quran was revealed during time of war and extreme lawlessness. That’s where he (SD) MUST start.[/I]”

You see . . . on the rugs praying five times a day. This is Mecca or Childs pose. It’s yoga.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

#87

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35722]You have a long history to look through 7000BCE to 10000AD when India was under Hindu rule.
[/QUOTE]

This confuses me

9010 years in the past until 7990 years in the future :confused:

Did you mean 1000AD?

#88

[QUOTE=Yulaw;35732]This confuses me

9010 years in the past until 7990 years in the future :confused:

Did you mean 1000AD?[/QUOTE]

Haha, yes!

#89

www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/ahimsa.asp I tried to copy and paste the article, but it wouldn’t allow me for some reason. It’s an interesting read.

Extremists are in every facet of religion. The fact of the matter is they still consider themselves part of that religion. The Hindutva still consider themselves Hindu don’t they?

Many posters have shown you how misinterpreted the bible, etc has been. Misinterpretation comes from those fringe groups who want power and control or through word of mouth the message became warped when it was finally written down.

I know in the Gita it states that violence is justified, but who makes that decision? Is it not subjective? When is violence Ok and when is it not? Much gray area here. Open to interpretation, or misinterpretation.

#90

This is the T-shirt I wore at the gym today. I own 2 of these and they are my favourites, and not just because the pretty girls all tell me ‘nice shirt’.

Maybe I should get more made to include Hinduism?

#91

India was the most richest and advanced country on this planet from the year 7000BCE to 1000AD. This was when it under Hindu rule.

In the year 1AD it had an estimated 32.9% share of the GDP of the world, the highest ever recorded by any nation. In the year 1000AD it had a 28.9% share of the GDP of the world. After its share kept on falling due to Muslim occupation down to 24.5% in 1500, but it was still the richest country in the world at this stage. Then the British came after 1700 and the share fell to 16% in 1820 and then 7.6% in 1913. It had its lowest ever in 1973 at 3.1%

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)

In other words when India was under Hindu occupation it was its most prosperous and India pretty much dominated the entire world with economic power even greater than America has in the world today(approx 20% of the GDP of the world) This shows clearly Hinduism is a superior religion that produces superior civilisation.

#92

I know in the Gita it states that violence is justified, but who makes that decision? Is it not subjective? When is violence Ok and when is it not? Much gray area here. Open to interpretation, or misinterpretation.

I have already covered this point. The Gita is set on a battle field between two armies which are about to clash. The Gita says nothing about violence against non-believers and nor does it support violence. It is about Krishna counseling his friend who has misgivings at the last minute, to do his duty as a warrior to protect his people and not think of the costs or benefits, but act because it is right.

Hinduism does not support violence. It supports ahimsa. The great war of the Mahabharata is in fact a beautiful demonstation of this principle. As this war does not take place until the very end when the injustice against the Pandavas by the Kuruvs goes beyond the tipping point. Otherwise throughout the epic the Pandavas despite suffering so much, keep their peace to the very end.

This is very different to the Abrahamic teaching of an eye for an eye. Now there is lesser justification indeed in the New Testimant where Jesus says “turn the other cheek” but nonetheless the bible does teach a doctrine of exclusivism where a select few are saved and the rest of the world is condemned. It is easy to interpret this to justify violent action against the “condemned” and that is exactly what has been done.

Whatever Jesus’s original teachings were, the religion of Christianity that formed after him had little to nothing to do with Jesus. It was an institution of power set up by the Church and was used to oppress and control people and wage war.

#93

once again i have posted something you cannot dispute and you have ignored it SD

#94

They went and meditated. The science is behind the technique of meditation which was developed by the Vedic Risis after rigorous philosophical and phenomenological analysis. They would not have been doing this technique if they had not believed it worked.

Meditation is a superscience which was developed by the Risis in order that we can transform our mind and experience the essential reality of who we are. It is a science where the human itself becomes the experiment. They did very vigorous analysis of the various states of consciousness, the best techniques one can apply on oneself to to produce them, and the movement of energy around the body etc. It is a very rigorous science.

You do not appreciate the research that has gone behind these Yoga techniques you take for granted.

i am hindu or becoming hindu? call it what you will. I do yoga postures and breathing for the body, it makes sense to stretch and breath, I also got to do somethng to pass the time, where will it get me, i dont now. I try to eat better because it makes logical sense. So, what do I belive hinduism? in a way I have no beliefs but then again i believe to live and let live and take care of yourself as best you can.

Yep, you are doing exactly what a Hindu should do. You are working on personal and spiritual development. You are gaining control over your mind and your body. Now that remains is an understanding of dharma and living in accordance with that and you are well on your way to becoming Hindu.

Do you accept karma and reincarnation?

#95

The following free e-book makes a very good case for why Hindus are a superior civilisation:

You will learn a lot about the massive contributions Hindus have made to history and science in this book
and how far they spread their civilisation. Their prosperity is second to none.

#96

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35743]

You do not appreciate the research that has gone behind these Yoga techniques you take for granted.

Do you accept karma and reincarnation?[/QUOTE]
that is a big assumption SD, any moment I am at peace and whatever helped that moment happen, i appreciate it.
reincarnation and Karma, really I could care less. I could say i was reincarnated when I woke up this morning

#97

This is true because the body you had this morning is not the same body as you had before you went to sleep. You die everytime you go to sleep. Death is like going to sleep. Every meditation is like death.

Your mind is your link to the higher planes of reality. These planes do not exist outside of you but within you.

#98

It is almost comic that people on this forum are insisting on the equality of barbaric religions like Christianity and Islam with an enlightened religion like Hinduism:

Islam:

Under the first four Caliphs, the direct descendants of the prophet Mohammed, Iran remained predominantly Zoroastrian. Zoroastrians were awarded the status of People of the Book or dhimmi status by the Caliph Omar, although some practices contrary to Islam were prohibited.[11][15][16] Before this took place, however, thousands of Zoroastrian priests were executed, hundreds of temples destroyed, and religious texts burnt, and the use of the ancient Avestan as well as Persian languages was prohibited. Omar did not take the jizya from the “Magian infidels” (Zoroastrians) until he heard a testimony that Muhammad had taken the jizya from the Magians of Hajar.
When the Persian capital of Ctesiphon in province of Khv?rvar?n (today known as Iraq) fell to the Muslims during the Islamic conquest of Persia in 637 under the military command of Sa`ad ibn Abi Waqqas during the caliphate of Umar the palaces and their archives were burned.

When Muhammad Kasim invaded Sind in 711 AD, Buddhism had no resistance to offer to their fire and steel. The rosary could not be a match for the sword and the terms Love and Peace had no meaning to them. They carried fire and sword wherever they went and obliterated all that came their way. Muhammad triumphantly marched into the country, conquering Debal, Sehwan, Nerun, Brahmanadabad, Alor and Multan one after the other in quick succession, and in less than a year and a half, the far-flung Hindu kingdom was crushed, the great civilization fell back and Sind entered the darkest period of its history. There was a fearful outbreak of religious bigotry in several places and temples were wantonly desecrated. At Debal, the Nairun and Aror temples were demolished and converted into mosques.[Resistors] were put to death and women made captives. The Jizya was exacted with special care.[Hindus] were required to feed Muslim travellers for three days and three nights.

Mahmud of Ghazni sacked the second Somnath Temple in 1026, and looted it of gems and precious stones and the famous Shiva lingam of the temple was destroyed . Later the temple was demolished by Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb in 1706.

#99

Here is what some of the most prominent Hindu gurus had to say on Abrahamic religions:

Swami Vivekananda

Swamiji said "people who deny the efficiency of any investigation into religion seem to me somewhat to be contradicting themselves. For instance the Christian claims that his religion is the only true one, because it was revealed to so and so. The Mohammedan makes the same claims for his religion; his is the only true one because it was revealed to so and so…

“The books fighting among themselves cannot be the judges. Decidedly then we have to admit that there is something higher than we have to admit that there is something more universal than these books, something higher that all the ethical codes that are in the world, something which can judge between the strength of inspirations of different nations. Whether we declare it boldly clearly or not - it is evident that here we appeal to reason.” (The Complete Work of Swami Vivekananda, Vol I 368-69).

How ‘enlightened’ was Mohammad?

Mohammed claimed that the Angel Gabriel came to him in a cave one day and took him on the heavenly horse, Harak and he visited the heavens. But with all that Mohammed spoke some wonderful truths. If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths mixed with superstitions. How will you explain this? That man was inspired, no doubt, but that inspiration was as it were stumbled upon. He was not a trained Yogi, and did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the great evil that has been done through his fanaticism! Think of the millions massacred through his teachings, mothers bereft of their children, children made orphans whole countries destroyed, millions upon millions of people killed". (I. 184)

There is idol worship in Islam

Swamiji further said: "The Mohammedan who thinks that every ritual, every form, image or ceremony used by a non-Mohammedan is sinful does not think so when he comes to his own shrine, the Kaaba. Every religious Mohammedan whereever he prays, must imagine that he is standing before the Kaaba. When he makes a pilgrimage there, he must kiss the black stone in the wall of the shrine. All the kisses that have been imprinted on that stone, by millions and millions of pilgrims will stand up as witnesses for the benefit of the faithful on the last day of judgement. Then there is the well of Zam Zam. Mohammedans believe that whoever draws a little water out of that well will have sins pardoned, and he will, after the day of resurrection, have a fresh body, and live for ever (II:39). The Mohammedans use the graves of their sainst and martyres almost in the place of images (III:61).

Spread of Islam by Sword…

“The Mohammedan religion allows Mohammedans to kill all who are not of their religion. It is clearly stated in Koran, “Kill the infidels if they do not become Mohammedans”. They must be put to fire and sword. (II.335). Think of the little sects, born within a few hundred years out of fallible human brains, making this arrogant claim of knowledge of the whole of God’s infinite truth! Think of the arrogance of it! If it shows any- thing, it is this how vain human beings are. And it is no wonder that such claims have always failed, and , by the mercy of the Lord, are always destined to fail. In this line the Mohammedans were the best off; every step forward was made with the sword–the Koran in the one hand and the sward in the other: “Take the Koran, or you must die; there is no alternative!”. You know from history how phenomenal was their success; for six hundred years nothing could resist them, and then there came a time when they had to cry halt. So will it be with other religions if they follow the same methods.” (II:369-70)

Allah, the God of Islam

Swamiji said ‘universal brotherhood’ in Islam by saying: Mohammedans talk of universal brotherhood, but what comes out of that in reality? Why anybody who is not a Mohammedan will not be admitted into the brotherhood; he will more likely have his throat cut. (II:380)

More from Swamiji on this aspect: "Now, some Mohammedans are the crudest in this respect, and the most sectarian. Their watchword is “There is one God, and Mohammed is His Prophet”. Everything beyond that not only is bad, but must be destroyed forthwith; at a moment’s notice. every man or woman, who does not exactly believe in that, must be killed; everything that does not belong to this worship must be immediately broken; every book that teaches anything else must be burnt. From the Pacific to the Atlantic, for five hundred years, blood ran all over the world. That is Mohammedanism! Neverthe- less, among these Mohammedans, wherever there was a philosophic man, he was sure to protest against these cruelties. (IV:126)

Theocratic Islamic governments

Regarding the fact that in Muslim countries the non-Muslim religious communities had difficulty in performing their religious duties and the theocratic governments do not allow to build temples or churches, no wonder Swamiji said: "It is here that Indians build temples for Mohammedans and Christians. Nowhere else. If you go to other countries and ask Mohammedans or people of other religions to build a temple for you, see how they will help. They will instead try to break your temple and you too if they can (III:114).

#100

what are you trying to accomplish with all this?