Calm rational discussion regarding Hinduism and Abrahamic religions

Spirituality Religion
#68

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35636]Namaste Prasad,

The Western man is arrogant and believes that he can construct truth. He constructs truth according to his bias, needs and interests. This is what Lotusgirl really means by saying “Everybody has their own truth” However, we know clearly that this is bogus. Of course there is truth. We know this entire universe is governed by knowable principles and laws of cause and effect that we can observe and use to make scientific predictions.

If we compare Hinduism and Christianity side by side we can see which one is correct and which one is incorrect.

Hinduism says that the Earth is shaped like a sphere and rotates on its axis and goes around orbit around the sun held by the attraction of the sun. Christianity says that the Earth is flat, at the centre of the universe, and the sun goes around the Earth(In Islam it is taught the sun goes into the sea at night)

Hinduism says that the universe is constantly expanding and contracting over trillions of years and is consists of innumerable solar systems. It says the Earth is approx 4 billion years old and human civilisation is hundresds of thousands of years old. Christianity says all of creation was made in 7 days.

Hinduism says that the human being has evolved first from chemical processes where heat and water combined, then from single celled organisms to more complex organisms, then to humans. Christianity teaches that the first human was Adam, from his rib was created Eve.

Hindusm says that we commit wrong actions because our intellect become clouded by desires and attachments which leads to anxiety, fear and anger, and thence wrong perception. Christianity teaches that we are born sinners because Adam and Eve went against god’s word and ate an apple from a forbidden tree.

Hinduism says that in order for us to end our personal suffering, we must purify our mind through the practice of Yoga and meditation, whereby we can become happy, peaceful and loving beings. Christianity teaches that we can go to a place called heaven if we accept Jesus as our lord and saviour. Just accepting Jesus is enough to be accepted in heaven.

Hinduism says that the soul merely associates with a body, and at the time of sleep and death, the soul disassociates from the body and enters the mind, where it temporarily is subject to mental projections, and then returns back to the/a body. This cycle continues until the soul has exhausted its desires. Christianity teaches that there will be a judgement day where everbody will rise from the grave and stand judgement before god.

Hinduism teaches that an impersonal law of cause and effect(karma) governs every action and reaction. That is because every action produces a memory of the action which is stored in our unconscious mind, which are triggered by stimuli in the world. Christianity teaches that every action is noted by god sitting on his throne in heaven and he rewards you with eternal life or punishes you with eternal damnation on judgement day.

Hinduism teaches that we are all potentially divine beings and must actualise our potential through the refinement of our thoughts, actions and speech in this life. Christianity teaches that we are all sinners, we must atone for our sins by accepting Jesus as the way, life and truth, and gain a place in heaven. In this place we are still lower than Jesus(the son) and the heirarchy of angels.

Hinduism teaches that we must both know and live in accordance with the laws of the universe in order to be prosperous. Christianity teaches that we must follow the 10 commandments, one of them which is that god is jealous and does not want any other god before him.

It is easy to see which religion is true and which religion is false.[/QUOTE]
well your generalizations of christianity may be false. some christians may teach that, yes, but do all? I have read the bible a bit and my interpretations of what jesus said may be different. Jesus said, “I and the father are one” in the bible there are also scripture of the hand and foot all being of the one body of God. in yoga there is only one self. Jesus said “the kingdom of God lies within” does not sound as if we must wait till heaven. hesus also said “the things I do ye shall do also and greater then these” so he was talking about sidhis? we can do them too? the followers of christ, just as you have said you plan to follow a master, at times may have misinterpreted what he said, then wrote their interpretation down and now we have the bible. You may at times misinterpret too

also, as you have talked about karma and cuase and effect, and science. The God, or self as you call it is beyond all things. Science, cause and effect only goes so far. Budha said himself, “chaos is inherent in all compounded things, strive on with diligence.” what does he mean, if it were only cause and effect then there would be no chaos for scientifically A+B=C.

look at th4 TAO where it says “if it is good or bad, that is not it”, so if it is karma, that is not it, if it is science, that is not it.

to categorize all christians based on a limited perspective would be like saying all hindus are like you. “humility is the key to the kingdom of God”

#69

Hi Surya Deva,

Can you tell me how humans have manipulated these words:

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you … And slay them wherever ye catch them … And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God …"
it’s done be leaving relevant stuff out. It’s really no big deal to quote the whole three suras, but they’re cut down on purpose. Here’s the full quote:

2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
You see that it sounds very differently now, like just war, as the Bhagavad Gita recommends it too. Christianity, via Jesus in the New Testament, even suggest not to fight back.

Is it not obvious, the words are manipulated? It is. Not that you’d care, though. :wink:

#70

Namaste Brother Neil,

I think you are in denial. These are indeed the main beliefs of the religion called Christianity. Christian Gnosticism is considered heretical. The bible may well be an misinterpretation of what Jesus originally taught, but nonetheless that is what went onto become the religion of Christianity.

In any case even the Christian Gnostic scriptures are inferior when it comes to the vast literature in Hinduism which turn gnoticism into a science. You will benefit more from reading the Yogasutras or the Bhagvad Gita than you will from reading any Christian scripture. So again my point holds true that Hinduism is a superior religion. Why consume you something of inferior quality when you can have superior quality? The sensible person knows that Hinduism is the only religion that can actually help them. Besides you are already half-way to becoming Hindu through doing Yoga.

You are doing our religious practice of Yoga because you know it is the only one that works. If your practices worked you would not have been doing Yoga. We understand the science of spirituality better than anybody else on this planet. We are unsurpassed when it comes to this. This is why it is our Yoga, Ayurveda and Vedanta that the world wants. Barely any civilised person cares about what Christian or Islamic scripture says, because most of it is outdated nonsense. However, when they read the Gita, then they get real satisfaction.

#71

[quote=Surya Deva;35703]David,

Can you tell me how humans have manipulated these words:[/quote]
Quetzalcoatl said it better than I could. Mistranslation, translation to support ones ambitions, you name it. At their base, most religions are beautiful. Then egotistical humans come along :frowning:

It’s not the religions. It’s us.

#72

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;35710]Hi Surya Deva,

it’s done be leaving relevant stuff out. It’s really no big deal to quote the whole three suras, but they’re cut down on purpose. Here’s the full quote:

You see that it sounds very differently now, like just war, as the Bhagavad Gita recommends it too. Christianity, via Jesus in the New Testament, even suggest not to fight back.

Is it not obvious, the words are manipulated? It is. Not that you’d care, though. ;)[/QUOTE]

Actually it does not sound different at all. It says stop fighting them when they desist and convert to the religion of Allah. In other words you either convert or perish.

I have read the Quran, thank you very much. I know that the Quran says.

#73

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35695]I don’t have to worry about credibility. I let the evidence speak for itself. So far I have shown conclusively that both Christianity and Islam are intolerant religions and have historically been full of violence to other religions.

You and nobody else have been able to refute my point. In fact on the contrary Lotusgirl even accepted it was true.

Now show me the historical violence Hinduism has done to other religions? If not then you will have to accept my point that Hinduism is the only true tolerant religion and Abrahamic religions are intolerant.[/QUOTE]

I am not trying to show you anything about Hinduism or its violence, nor would I try

The problem is the evidence you are presenting in this case, televangelists, is not credible. There is nothing to refute nor would I waste my time trying to refute anything you are saying, as I have said, your cup is full. Even if presented with proof you would either deny its validity or simply ignore it.

I am just trying to give you some friendly advice as to the type of proof you are currently presenting as irrefutable. Many in the US do not take televangelists all that seriously and as for Oprah, bottom-line she is an entertainer. Using televangelists as proof or basing an argument on Oprah is much the same as using any number of gossip publications in the US as proof that Elvis is alive.

#74

ELVIS IS ALIVE?! There IS a god! WOO!

#75

Yulaw, seriously I don’t need to provide that much proof on how destuctive the Abrahamic religions have been and how hundreds of of millions of people have been slaughtered by them. The doctrines they hold onto which condemn people. The extermination of indigenious people in other lands. This is a historical fact. The televangelists are just further proof of how intolerant these religions are.

You are in denial, it is so obvious :smiley:

These religions should have been long rejected.

#76

[quote=surya deva;35711]namaste brother neil,

i think you are in denial. blah blah blahthese are indeed the main beliefs of the religion called christianity. Christian gnosticism is considered heretical. The bible may well be an misinterpretation of what jesus originally taught, but nonetheless that is what went onto become the religion of christianity.

In any case even the christian gnostic scriptures are inferior when it comes to the vast literature in hinduism which turn gnoticism into a science. You will benefit more from reading the yogasutras or the bhagvad gita than you will from reading any christian scriptu blah blah blah again my point holds true that hinduism is a superior religion. Why consume you something of inferior quality when you can have superior quality? The sensible person knows that hinduism is the only religion that can actually help them. Besides you are already half-way to becoming hindu through doing yoga.
blah blah blah
you are doing our religious practice of yoga because you know it is the only one that works. If your practices worked you would not have been doing yoga. We understand the science of spirituality better than anybody else on this planet. We are unsurpassed when it comes to this. This is why it is our yoga, ayurveda and vedanta that the world wants. Barely any civilised person cares about what christian or islamic scripture says, because most of it is outdated nonsense. However, when they read the gita, then they get real satisfaction.[/quote]
blah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blah

AND YOU ARE ALWAYS TIRED BECAUSE?

#77

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35717]Yulaw, seriously I don’t need to provide that much proof on how destuctive the Abrahamic religions have been and how hundreds of of millions of people have been slaughtered by them. The doctrines they hold onto which condemn people. The extermination of indigenious people in other lands. This is a historical fact. The televangelists are just further proof of how intolerant these religions are.

You are in denial, it is so obvious :smiley:

These religions should have been long rejected.[/QUOTE]

Since I am not trying to defend anything I do not see how I am denying anything. If you wish to use as your proof like televangelists so be it.

#78

You and nobody else have been able to refute my point. In fact on the contrary Lotusgirl even accepted it was true.

You conveniently left out the rest of my comments when you said I accepted it as true. I have listed it below.

Now Surya, this is good discussion! Thank you.

But I am not saying that Islam or Christianity has not had their share of violence. In their beliefs, they felt justified in using violence to further their cause. But true Christians know that this is not what the Bible teaches. Many have misinterpreted and skewed its teachings. I guess my point in citing the Gita was does ANY violence justify further violence? One can always justify. Violence is violence, regardless. Was it justified for the US to go into Iraq? Was Saddham Hussein guilty of mass genocide? Yes he was. But we are no better if we use violence to combat violence. It keeps the cycle going which is counterproductive to producing peace

Every religion has a history of violence. Hinduism is no different. You say it is in retaliation. Understandable. But it is still violence no matter how justified. Each religion has felt justification using violence for the greater good. Violence is never for the greater good.

#79

[QUOTE=David;35715]ELVIS IS ALIVE?! There IS a god! WOO![/QUOTE]

Yes and he is in Montana running a Stuckey’s with Janis Joplin and Bruce Lee:D

#80

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;35720]You conveniently left out the rest of my comments when you said I accepted it as true. I have listed it below.

Every religion has a history of violence. Hinduism is no different. You say it is in retaliation. Understandable. But it is still violence no matter how justified. Each religion has felt justification using violence for the greater good. Violence is never for the greater good.[/QUOTE]

Then point out this violence within Hinduism where Hindus have killed and persecuted non-Hindus. Show me the Hindu inquisitions, witch burning, jihads, crusades and extermination of native people.

You have a long history to look through 7000BCE to 10000AD when India was under Hindu rule.

I’m waiting :slight_smile:

#81

again, buhda came to a point where he left all teaching behind and sat by a tree, jesus left it all behind and went to the desert, nithyananda said he came to a time where all teaching were dropped. these accounts of so called masters cannot be disputed. so what is the science behind leaving all teachings behind?.

i am hindu or becoming hindu? call it what you will. I do yoga postures and breathing for the body, it makes sense to stretch and breath, I also got to do somethng to pass the time, where will it get me, i dont now. I try to eat better because it makes logical sense. So, what do I belive hinduism? in a way I have no beliefs but then again i believe to live and let live and take care of yourself as best you can.

time to go surf
brother Neil

#82

Surya, All I’m saying is violence has been around since humans have. Did Hindu’s persecute non-hindus?

11/19/2007 13:25
INDIA
In under a year over 190 cases of Hindu persecution of Christians

by Nirmala Carvalho
A report by All India Catholic Union, into anti Christian persecution gathered data with the aid of leading National groups. The report underlines widespread marginalisation of non Hindus, and government apathy which protects aggressors. New Delhi (AsiaNews) – In less than one year over 190 violent attacks against Christians took place in India. These assaults include homicide, armed assault, sexual molestation and lynching, All India Catholic Union (Aicu), an association grouping together lay Catholics warned in a document published November 17th last.
Aicu President, John Dayal, underlines that data was collected tank to the collaboration of various Christian groups throughout the country, and that cases were Christians were attacked for reasons other than their faith were not taken into account. Therefore says Dayal, “the cases that were presented and certified fall into the category of persecution. We have not taken into consideration the situation of social marginalisation of our many brethren in the faith in many Indian States, because it would be impossible to count them”.
Sajan K. George, national president of the Bangalore based Global Council of Indian Christians told AsiaNews: “GCIC has recorded 464 cases of atrocities against Christians throughout India over 20 months and Karnataka has the worst record in this period with 87 cases, followed by Madhya Pradesh with 30 cases”. In the light of this data he adds “submitted a memorandum to memorandum to the National Human Rights Council and also to the State Human Rights Commission (SHRC), seeking an independent inquiry into the incidents. After the BJP came into the coalition- and they are now in power, there has been a climate of impunity for any acts of violence that are committed against non Hindus. Many of these attacks have occurred inside homes in the places of worship of Christians, as people were worshipping within the privacy of their homes and churches”. Often he concludes, “Often the Administration and Police have refused to either file or pursue the matter with seriousness. Unfortunately in our 60th year of Indian Independence, the government as yet has done little to bring these hate crimes under control” Source.
India Police And Hindu Militants Besiege Christian Convention

Added: Oct 22nd, 2007 4:32 AM
By BosNewsLife News Center with BosNewsLife’ Stefan J. Bos
NEW DELHI, INDIA (BosNewsLife) — Police forces and Hindu militants interrupted a major Christian convention in India’s state of Chhattisgarh and forced a pastor to hand over names of people who “accepted Christ”, a Christian official told BosNewsLife Sunday, October 21.
Police and Hindu militants attempted to storm the “59th General Convention [of the] Church of God held in the church” in [the area of] Rajatalab Raipur in the vicinity of state’s capital Raipur, said Sajan George, National President of the Global Council of Indian Christians (GCIC), a major advocacy group.
Hindu persecution campaign targets pastor

The recent attack involved an estimated 35 Hindu radicals and happened while he was returning from the home of a convert he’d been ministering to, according to VOM contacts in India.
“He was beaten with thick sticks, kicked on his jaw and face and dragged on the road,” according to statements obtained by VOM from witnesses. “He was screaming because of the pain and praying out loud, asking God to forgive the attackers.
“He was bleeding profusely from his jaw and ear, and was unable to see. In spite of his painful cries, the attackers continued striking him until the police arrived and stopped the beating,” the sources reported.
He remains alive only because of that reluctant intervention, because VOM sources reported that after the attack it was discovered the extremists planned to murder him, then make a false report claiming he had died in an automobile accident.
The pastor, who had come to Christ in 1999 from a background of Hindu extremism, has brought a number of people in his region to Christ since that time, VOM sources reported. At the same time, he was being threatened with “dire consequences” for being a Christian, the news from VOM confirmed.

This is as recent as 2007. Hinduism does have less of a history of violence then others, but they still have violence in their history.

#83

Namaste Lotus girl,

This is not Hinduism. I told you to look for the history of violence in Hinduism from 7000BCE to 1000AD because this is when India was under Hindu rule.

This is Hindutva which is a political and nationalist group, which is inspired by Western fascism, particularly Nazism. It came into formation the mid 20th century in order to fight for independence of Hindu India. These Indian leaders actually paid visits to Germany and Italy in order to get inspiration from them.

The reason you will not be able to find violence for Hinduism is because there was never an institutionalized religion called Hinduism. There is no clergy or authority to ordain anything in Hinduism.

#84

Surya, can you not assume the same for other religions then? The radicals within the religion using violence, while the majority does not. I think so!

#85

No Lotusgirl, I cannot, because these other religions are indeed institutionalized, they do have clergys and clergies did indeed ordain religious violence in order to convert others by the sword. This has ordained by the highest authority in these religions like popes for Christianity and Caliphs in Islam.

The fact remains that these religions actually contain doctrines that condemn non believers directly to be found in their scriptures. You cannot separate the two.

Inquisitions, crusades, jihads, witch burning have all been ordained by highest religious authorities.

In Hinduism there is no such religious authority because it is based on personal spirituality. Another reason why it is superior.

#86

From My Islam Brother . . . Ikota.

“[I]they key is understanding historical context…the Quran was revealed during time of war and extreme lawlessness. That’s where he (SD) MUST start.[/I]”

You see . . . on the rugs praying five times a day. This is Mecca or Childs pose. It’s yoga.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

#87

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35722]You have a long history to look through 7000BCE to 10000AD when India was under Hindu rule.
[/QUOTE]

This confuses me

9010 years in the past until 7990 years in the future :confused:

Did you mean 1000AD?