Commonly and uncommonly missed details in asana

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

Hey Everyone,

The more I learn about asana practice the more often I see somebody near me performing an asana either non energetically or in a way that will hurt them.

One example of this is in down dog when people do not do an external rotation of the biceps that goes into the shoulders. While my description may be lacking this is bio mechanically correct alignment for the shoulders.

Another example that I experienced pain in recently was while practicing virabhadrasana 2. I was on the side where my left leg was bent. A few weeks prior I had learned to keep my torso turning to the right so that it did not follow my head when I looked over my fingers. After practicing this aggressively I felt a pain in my hip join (of the bent leg). I asked my instructor later and he said what I think I discovered the next day. The problem was that I needed to externally rotate my thigh (inner thigh rolls up towards the ceiling). I have known for quite a while that you are supposed to have the knee stacked over the ankle but I think that I was doing this from my ankle and not from my thigh.

What do you see in class that most people seem to miss? Yoga is exceptionally good for your health but it is also easy to hurt yourself with when practiced incorrectly. If you could walk up to one of your classmates today what advice would you give them?

Best

Ryan

#2

Bump

In extended child’s pose (utthita balasana, adho mukha virasana) I rarely hear the instruction to reach your sit bones towards the ground. This, I hear, is far better advice then an instructor coming to a student and pressing them down. That action causes the student to resist the movement.

#3

Interesting question. When I think about this situation you described (approaching classmate with advice) I feel bit awkward. First, I don’t know on what given person is working in given asana - maybe he/she is working on e.g. pelvis alignment and my comment about shoulders would spoil the effort. Second, I don’t know what is the order of progression in asanas (general and in case of given specific person). Maybe before working on external rotation of biceps there is a need for more endurance and/or pulling shoulders down?

I thought now about my studio - during led classes I’m incorporating maybe 50% of instructions. Usually I just pick one thing to work on and leave others for later (and my teacher usually approaches and corrects me if I miss something important). I think I do it because its just too much for me. E.g. in my struggle with Marichyasana D, instructions “contract anetrior deltoid in shoulder touching the leg and rotate the opposit shoulder externally” (plus/minus, can’t remember exactly) - I just leave out because its beyond me to follow at the moment.

#4

Perhaps, as students, we should remain focussed on our own practice…

#5

@Rdlagrand

I agree with Pawel that this question is interesting on several levels, at least for me. First, I am curious as to the instruction you received to turn torso to right w/left knee bent in Virabhadrasana II. And also the use of the word “aggressively”. I certainly hope your teacher did not use this word in his/her instruction. It is far simpler and more appropriate to move the hips/legs properly. The torso will stay neutral, which is what you want in this pose.

And now, from a teacher perspective, to address the issue you raised in the title of this thread. As a student of asana as an exercise or student of yoga, attention during practice should be on you, not anyone else in class. When we do this we lose our ability to stay focused and centered in “our” practice. And when this happens in class, we as practitioners get sloppy, make mistakes and risk injury. It is the job of the teacher to pay attention to what her/his students are doing. Students should stay within their own practice, being mindful of what “they” are doing and listening to instruction. Teachers must be keenly aware of how much instruction their students are able to handle. (like Pawel mentioned) The typical student can only handle a few select cues about a particular asana IF the teacher is speeding through. A teacher should build upon an asana, adding layers of instruction as the students master (for lack of better wording) the previous cues. In my classes, I will stop and review a particular asana if I feel the class is missing part of it. I will walk around looking at each student perform what cues I have given and then ask them if they noticed a difference.

With all this being said, we are human and as humans we are curious and will look around to see what others are doing. But as your practice deepens, you find yourself doing this less often. You find yourself turning inward to feel, understand and “be” the pose. And when this happens, it is truly beautiful.

#6

I have what I refer to as ‘alligator arms’ when in downward dog. This is due to the physical structure of my shoulders - from skeletal structure, muscular, and activity/age related other reasons. It has taken me many years of practice to open my shoulder blades enough to come close to ‘normalization’. I had hoped I wasn’t offending anyone in the class by my disability :slight_smile:

This is where a good instructor comes in handy (or in my case - army).

#7

good post!

as i’m teaching or taking a class I can see all kind of different “variations” of asanas… and yes, there are moment when I so tempted to correct student or teacher…

but i do not believe that there is “uniform” safe yoga practice…we all have different bodies and what you can take and enjoy might potentially hurt me…

#8

CityMonk you hit the nail on the head for what I think Iyengar does both best and worst.

Lotusgirl and Omamana, while my focus in class should remain on myself alone there are few practitioners out there who have this down 100%, 100% of the time. I do not make a habit of watching other yogi’s but it does happen. More often than in class I notice these mistakes while counting class during working hours. Furthermore my true practice is not in class. My true practice is done by myself unguided by an outside teacher. During class my goal is to stay out of ruts and learn from both teachers and students.

Oh yea and I have never heard an instructor tell anybody to pursue asana aggressively. That was just a bi product of residual ego trying to achieve perfection.

Pawel our practices are dissimilar. I do notice that when focusing on a new detail for a posture I can sometimes lose old details. I would however, consider a posture incomplete without fitting every part in. As your understanding of a posture grows the pieces you do have should slide into place with little or no thought while the new, or more difficult parts are honed. I refer back to CityMonk’s wisdom.

#9

But, we must remember that as teachers it is our obligation to keep students safe. If, as teacher, I see a students practicing and alignment is wrong and/or injurious, I should either by cues or physical adjustment work with that student. This is what we are trained to do. If the student does not want adjustment or doesn’t listen to cues, and continues to practice toward the point of injury, I will talk with the student after class. On the flip side, if I am a student I do my best to not wear my teachers hat and allow the teacher to guide me. If an instruction is obviously contradictory to what I have been taught, I will ask the teacher about it after class.

And yes, each student is different and each student practicing the pose will look different. But there are general guidelines that need to be followed. If, for example, one student is coming into Virabhadrasana II and the bent knee is spaying to the inside of that leg, as a teacher I know this is not correct and potentially harmful to the knee. I will then give cue to keep knee to outside or gently walk over and tap the knee. And yet another example is you can have a whole room of yogi’s doing Trikonasana each a different way. For most (or all) they could be practicing it correctly, dependent on where they feel the pose and their flexibility. But a keen teacher will see the student who perhaps is seemingly in the pose correctly, but is not being challenged. I would go to the student and encourage moving deeper.

#10

yes, lotusgirl, there are crucial “guidelines” in some poses. and if one is interested, one can find this on yogajournal or some alignment based yoga book.

#11

Yes CityMonk, you can find guidelines at yogajournal.com or in a book. And teachers or students are free to use that. But my point was more to our obligation as a teacher to teach the poses. Whether it is gentle cues or physical adjustments, as teachers this is what we do. If we see a student doing a pose incorrectly or injuriously, we need to address that. I don’t know CityMonk, am I missing something here?

#12

no, not missing… you are right, yoga teacher should teach proper poses

#13

How do you feel about giving repeat instruction to a student that does not learn out of stubbornness for how they think a pose should be done?

The yoga advisor at my studio who is a 200hr instructor at a different studio (in a conversation about students in vinyasa classes) said that she will often see students that prefer to do asana their way rather then what is correct, or safe. She felt that was typical in higher level vinyasa classes. This came up in a discussion about how higher level classes often translate to increased speed rather then actual difficulty.

I myself prefer to hold poses longer and move with my breath so I’m bias.

#14

[QUOTE=Rdlagrand;66811]Pawel our practices are dissimilar. I do notice that when focusing on a new detail for a posture I can sometimes lose old details. I would however, consider a posture incomplete without fitting every part in. As your understanding of a posture grows the pieces you do have should slide into place with little or no thought while the new, or more difficult parts are honed. I refer back to CityMonk’s wisdom.[/QUOTE]

Well, I congratulate you on desire for perfection and dedication. I myself will take bit slower route…

#15

[QUOTE=Rdlagrand;66849]How do you feel about giving repeat instruction to a student that does not learn out of stubbornness for how they think a pose should be done?

The yoga advisor at my studio who is a 200hr instructor at a different studio (in a conversation about students in vinyasa classes) said that she will often see students that prefer to do asana their way rather then what is correct, or safe. She felt that was typical in higher level vinyasa classes. This came up in a discussion about how higher level classes often translate to increased speed rather then actual difficulty.

I myself prefer to hold poses longer and move with my breath so I’m bias.[/QUOTE]

I am a bit confused with regards to the intention of your questions? If you are not a teacher then why are you so curious about giving other students instruction and how they might respond to that instruction?

In my opinion…

Yoga is a very personal ‘thing’, we are all at a different physical and mental stages and therefore a student which may come across as stubborn today might be very open to instruction five months down the line. Or a student that performs the most beautiful handstand might not be able to meditate for even five minutes.

Yoga is a journey on many different levels, you cannot force a person to be receptive or to accept help, you can only hope that one day they will be open to it and this will happen when they are ready to receive it - not when we are ready to give it.

p.s. there is no such thing as a perfect asana :wink:

#16

I am curious because I do offer instruction to close friends and one day aspire to be a certified, and paid instructor. That and knowing how my predecessors feel about these things provides understanding.

Gauging your response you would continue to offer the stubborn student instruction in hopes that they would one day be open to it.

I would in no way force any part of yoga onto a person. Pushing is a unidirectional movement that will carry through the student.

That depends on your criteria for perfect. If you include depth then yes! there is no perfectly performed asana. All I require is alignment to define perfection. If a student or master performs all of the correct movements for an asana simultaneously I would consider it perfectly done. If a student performs 14/15 parts of an asana but can’t perform the other 1/15 due to physical restriction with their body, I do not know where I stand there. Eitherway it does not matter. We can watch the grace of a master in awe but we will not be able to see the subtlety that would yield perfection.

#17

@ Rdlagrand

All I feel I can do or say now is that I wish you well on your journey on becoming a teacher. :slight_smile:

#18

So to the original question I’ll respond in this way:

As a student I tend to avoid drawing conclusion from what I see in the physical practice of those around me. Observation perhaps, but conclusion is dangerous. I simply could not fully know what is going on for that person in their body at this time. We simply do not have enough information. And this is why the relationship between student and teacher is so crucial along with a consistent practice in front of the watchful eyes of a highly trained guide.

Obviously the practice of yoga is a shift from being externally referential to being internally referential. This is the “why” to not gazing about, not focusing on the neighbor, not latching on to the sounds, the smells, the temperature. These are external references and ultimately distract from the process of going inward (the combination of Svadhyaya or self-study, and Pratyahara, the withdrawal of the senses).

And yet, as is pointed out, we are not perfect students and we do occassionally look around. But please, try to have a more focused mind in the practice and not do so in the face of temptation.

I’ll also point out that sometimes details are only details, rather than safety concerns or alignment issues. And once again the teacher has to be sound to know what to leave and what to address. I personally do not use the mindset of “correction”. I prefer the intention of adjustment and said adjustment, when offered, must always be to the student’s benefit AND lead them toward rather than away from the full expression of the posture.

Students have enough to do without turning their attention to what is appropriate for another student. When the student has found that answer for themselves (in their body not in their mind) AND has been trained in how to impart it to others at various levels of practice, then it is time to start seeing. Until then the seeing is within.

When student’s come to me however, then we have an agreement that I will be watching, looking, seeing, and steering them toward safety and efficacy - that is my job. So in that scenario I attend to safety concerns first and if there is time and a committed, willing student, then more can be offered.

#19

That seems to be a wise thing to understand. Part of the reason for my curiosity is so that I can learn how to deal with and work past these problems. I find that when I am injured I gain great insight to healing that ailment but there are many different types of injuries that I see day in day out.

I used to be much better at keeping my eyes to myself but have noticed since my ratio of class:solo practice has tipped away from time in class I have grown more, and more curious. That and since I have started taking Iyengar. As most of you are likely aware in Iyengar classes students are commonly selected to demonstrate what they are doing right/wrong. Asana for everyone else at this time is paused and we observe the instruction. Then by ourselves outside of class we apply those details, assuming we retain them.

After the 11th the classes I am taking will once again be broad in range. I wonder how this will influence this, and all aspects of my practice.

#20

I think when a student appears stubborn to learn proper posture within asana, he/she may be submitting to the body and it’s limitations. Either that, or the student’s ego insists it knows better.

Because of my shoulders, it took a long time for me to get into wheel backbend. But even now, I will stubbornly heave and muscle my way up. Just this past Monday, my fantastic teacher, who has known me for years, gently reminded me to first start on my head, then get my shoulders in position, then lift. She has been patiently telling me this for years.

Yoga class is a tough place to let your ego go and focus on your practice. Even in Iyengar class.