Did I experience Pratyahara?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#61

These stages that you have mentioned are quite similar to what I am experiencing while practicing trataka.

trataka itself can itself become a meditation and take you to samadhi. It is different to antar mouna because trataka is a concentration exercise on a yantra, candle flame, picture or mental visualization and is only used to train the focus of the mind. Antar mouna, on the other hand, is about learning to withdraw from the senses. So it is important to only focus on senses - switching between hearing and just watching the content of the mind behind closed eyes induces the first stage of pratayhara. You will start to see your thoughts as soon as you you enter pratyahara and they will become more and more vivid as you get into deeper stages. Initially, they are just like a series of 2D snap shots, that appear and disappear randomly. Later, they will become 3D live images, that it will feel like you are living them.

#62

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57245]trataka itself can itself become a meditation and take you to samadhi. It is different to antar mouna because trataka is a concentration exercise on a yantra, candle flame, picture or mental visualization [B]and is only used to train the focus of the mind.[/B] Antar mouna, on the other hand, is about learning to withdraw from the senses. So it is important to only focus on senses - switching between hearing and just watching the content of the mind behind closed eyes induces the first stage of pratayhara. You will start to see your thoughts as soon as you you enter pratyahara and they will become more and more vivid as you get into deeper stages. Initially, they are just like a series of 2D snap shots, that appear and disappear randomly. Later, they will become 3D live images, that it will feel like you are living them.[/QUOTE]

You are correct trataka itself [I]can[/I] become a means to meditation itself. But this is down the line for many people. Please keep these things in mind.

Also - there are more results than simply ‘Training the focus of the mind.’

#63

There is a subtle difference between ‘concentration’ and ‘dharana’ as well as between ‘meditation’ and ‘dhyana’ and finally, between ‘contemplation’ and ‘samadhi’. They are not synonyms as generally understood. But it is not just a translation issue. It has a very profound dimension.

While concentration, meditation and contemplation are skills that can be developed in external, object-centric mode, their counterparts - dharana, dhyana and samadhi - happen in a subjective mode. Though from objective to subjective mode is one sweeping flow, one has to have acquired a break-through stage of pratyahara. However, in one of the grand paradoxes of yoga, at that stage yogi’s subjective domain is all cleansed of impurities and no biases are created in perception. Hence, his/her subjective domain is absolutely ‘objective’ as is ordinarily understood.

Thus, tratak is one of the very valid practice for concentration and seen in the above context, statements of SD and the Scales can be better understood. (I guess!)

#64

Scales,

“This is a lie. At all times there is SOME effort of the mind via the will in regards to meditation.”

Then you know nothing whatsoever of meditation.

#65

[QUOTE=The Scales;57186][B]also

Let me make this perfectly clear to you so you can understand it.

Becaues thus far you clearly haven’t gotten it yet.

You are literally a child.

you have NOTHING to teach me about spiritual matters.

AT ALL. EVER.

Your knowledge is wrong.

Your an arrogant prick.

I could take you being an arrogant prick if your knowledge was right.

I can take you being an idiot if you were humble and kind.

I can’t take you being both an asshole and an idiot, and a champion of delusion.

Plus your a kid.

and a chump.

Thats why I zero in on you.[/B][/QUOTE]

Scales,

I do not consider you either to have a sincere desire for awakening, even less so a seeker of Truth. You can continue hiding behind the various masks you have created, but you should know that the function of one who is clear eyed is to discriminate betwee snakes pretending to be dragons, and dragons pretending to be snakes. Perhaps you are thinking that others will not be able to detect it, and most of the time it passes off. But when encountering one who has discovered his own eye on the forehead - you should know that he will be able to see straight through your being like an arrow. You are still in a deep sleep, although you enjoy pretending a pretension due to your own insecurities, fears, and anxieties. That may have in the past given you some temporary relief, but if you were being a bit more watchful, you would have found that it has not worked and has failed you time and time again. And yet - you continue along the same path that you have been treading. That is fine, you will continue playing the game until somehow life gives you enough experience so that you may come to your senses.

#66

[QUOTE=The Scales;57188]Perhaps if one were smarter than another, and with all variables being equal, (which is unlikely) the smarter of the two - would learn and get better faster.

Thats not to say the slower of the two couldn’t eventually be good, great, or even better - as there other factors involved.[/QUOTE]

Ok!

#67

Suhas,

“There is a subtle difference between ‘concentration’ and ‘dharana’ as well as between ‘meditation’ and 'dhyana”

You are right. Not only is there a subtle difference, but there is an enormous difference. Not only is it that most of these Sanskrit words do not have a precise translation in English, particularly dhyana, in any language there is no exact word that can capture what we are referring to. The workings of the mind are very complex, and it is impossible to state through language everything that is happening in meditation. The closest meaning to dhyana perhaps comes “meditation”, but even that is dimensions apart from what it is that is being referred to. In fact, meditation is the opposite of what dhyana is. Because the word meditation in English means either to comtemplate or to consider. If you are contemplating about love, then you can be said to be meditating about love. Amongst Christians, they have so called “meditations” upon Christ, which is not meditation at all in the sense of what is meant by dhyana in the East. Dhyana is neither consideration, nor contemplation. Consideration is an effort of the mind, contemplation is an effort of the mind, but meditation is not something that can be done as a conscious effort of the mind. You can become meditation, you can become possessed by it’s quality - but you cannot do it any more than you can see your own eyes, or hear your own ears. One can create a space for it to arise spontaneously by itself - but when it rears it’s head, it is not something that can be done.

#68

Amir if you haven’t figured it out yet.

I have credibility.

You do not.

Most see this.

If you don’t see this well then your an even bigger idiot than I imagined.

#69

From which book amir gleamed the concept ‘that meditation is without effort’ i simply do not know.

Even when the Bliss starts kicking in during samadhi with an object it still requires effort on the part of the yogin. In fact it requries more effort because the Bliss can be overwhelming. It is through effort that the yogin maintains the union. In terms of logic - if this were not so then each yogin who ever achieved samadhi with an object would still be in samadhi right now - unable to release it.

der . . .

The same utilization of will (which is effort) is also required for asamprajnata or the so called ‘seedless’ or ‘non objectional’ samadhi.

How does the scales know all this?

By treading the path of course!

At all times (however slight, however easy) there is some effort via the will required to maintain that state.

yup

#70

The teaching of no effort comes from Buddhist philosophy. It is a lazy teaching which makes people spiritually lazy. You indeed need a lot of effort. One who does not exert themselves will get nothing. Nothing is free in this world.

#71

This tread reminded me that Surya actually knows a lot of stuff. Yes, it is a good thread.

Hey, today I read this wonderful quote … it goes approximately like this: until you learn to see with the eyes of your enemies, you will never find peace.

And peace indeed is a basic requirement for meditation and spiritual advancement. So, in our search for truth and peace, we need to actually seek out those encounters where our faith, or knowledge is tested, and we must seek to unite what seems parted. Kahlil Gibran uses a wonderful methaphore for various traditions, religions. Those , he says, are the fingers of God’s open hand, pointing to various locations, people, yet they still belong to the same hand.
Indeed, often, even on the level of individual disciples, what is good for one, is not timely, hence, wrong for the other.

#72

Just wanted to share the fact that trying to practice trataka or similar concentration kriyas right after performing asanas is not a great idea.

I tried it & found that its very difficult to concentrate. [B]May be because the body becomes tired?[/B]

Whereas practicing trataka while doing pranayamas or after completing pranayams can work. I did it yesterday & I had a great time.

Also, I took a online dosha test some days back. The result says

Your overall dosha is Vata

In your body: Vata 5, Pitta 4, Kapha 3
In your mind :Vata 8, Pitta 2, Kapha 2

[B]What do you think?[/B]

#73

I think: how old are you ?

#74

[QUOTE=Hubert;57408]I think: how old are you ?[/QUOTE]

I am 29.

#75

You could try this.

Asana practice.

End the practice in lie down dead or shavasana.for 5 - 10 - 15 minutes.
Making relaxation a goal. or not.

then try fixed gaze.

or

after shavasana

do a little of the kumbhaka. i.e breath work maybe nice gentle “comming and going” i.e. alternate nostril breathing…

then try fixed gaze.

or you could try the fixed gaze first - as the yogis have filed ‘trataka’ under the category of six actions or cleansings . . . or shat karma.

#76

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57311]The teaching of no effort comes from Buddhist philosophy. It is a lazy teaching which makes people spiritually lazy. You indeed need a lot of effort. One who does not exert themselves will get nothing. Nothing is free in this world.[/QUOTE]

I have come across the teachings of right effort , but never of no effort , if I had , I would have been attracted to the no effort path :stuck_out_tongue: .
It would have been simpler not to enquire , ie not make an effort Ive never come acrooss a Buddhist teacher who has told me not to make an effort .
Can you direct me to such a teacher ?

#77

Here’s a little something that might interest you guys. From the Yoga Chudamani Upanishad:

Pratyahara is the state where sensory organs like the eye do not concern themselves with things outside but turn themselves inwards.* 120

Similar to the Sun taking his rays inwards at the third period of dusk, the yogi who is in the third stage would control his mind.**

That’s pretty much what Inner Athlete said. But this one is my personal favorite, from Jabala Darsana Upanishad:

Now I will tell you about Prathyahara. To use force and divert the sensory organs which normally travel according to their nature is Prathyahara. Those who know Brahma say that seeing whatever we see as the form of Brahman is Prathyahara. Prathyahara also is doing clean or unclean acts as those belonging to Brhaman. Further doing daily religious activities after dedicating them to God and similarly doing the activities which we desire is also Prathyahara. Apart from this inhaling air (oxygen) and stopping it in different places is also Prathyahara. The wise man would sit in Swasthikasana, draw his breath till it fills up from head to toe and hold it in two feet, mooladhara, stomach, middle of the heart, bottom of the neck, jaw, middle of the eyelids, forehead and at the top of the skull. Then he should leave out the belief that the body is oneself and make that thought as nirvikalpa and merge it with Paramatma. The experts in Vedanta say that this is true Prathyahara. There is nothing that cannot be attained by those who practice like this

#78

One more time, Sandilya Upanishad:

Then comes Pratyahara, which is of five kinds. It is the drawing away of the organs from attaching themselves to the objects of senses. Contemplating upon everything that one sees as Atman is Pratyahara. Renouncing the fruits of one’s daily actions is Pratyahara. Turning away from all objects of sense is Pratyahara. Dharana in the eighteen important places (mentioned below) is Pratyahara, (viz.,) the feet, the toes, the ankles, the calves, the knees, the thighs, the anus, the penis, the navel, the heart, the well of the throat, the palate, the nose, the eyes, the middle of the brows, the forehead and the head in ascending and descending orders.

Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?
–Blood, Sweat, and Tears

Who has ears to hear, let him hear. --Jesus

#79

Your overall dosha is Vata

In your body: Vata 5, Pitta 4, Kapha 3
In your mind :Vata 8, Pitta 2, Kapha 2

What do you think?

This is not surprising, because you said you had an anxiey disorder. This is the major problem of Vata’s they are prone to worrying, anxiety and fear. I should know, because I am Vata myself. I have had anxiety problems in the past(fortunately, it never got to the stage of panic attacks) and I can relate to how debilitating anxiety is. It is horrible and one should eradicate it completely out of their system. In order to do this do two things:

  1. Practice yamas and niyamas
  2. Bring your vata into balance

Recently my vata reached a very high level and as a result I lost weight, aches and pains started all over my body (the start of arthiritis) and severe dehydration. My mouth would keep drying up that my tongue would solidfy and develop a coating, my skin was getting severely dry as well and my urine was deep yellow. I have improved now by bringing my vata down a little. In order to this: Keep yourself warm and avoid cold; having warm, heavy and moist food; drink more water than usual; sleep at regular times. In addition follow a vata-pacifying diet, take daily oil massages with seasame oil, stick to a daily schedule(sleeping and waking up times, yoga times, meal times should be at regular times; the more discipline the better)

This program will bring your vata down and and hence your anxiety.

#80

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57536] It is horrible and one should eradicate it completely out of their system. In order to do this do two things:

  1. Practice yamas and niyamas
  2. Bring your vata into balance
    [/QUOTE]

Yes I am trying to practice yamas and niyamas as much as possible. Some of them are really difficult to follow in today’s world. For example, to follow complete Ahimsa in today’s time is quite difficult & even gets difficult when you are asked to avoid it not only in your karma but also in your mind.

Unfortunately I have many so called enemies in my locality. They don’t have the courage to tell me anything directly. Instead they come up with really innovative ideas to create disturbances. So, Ahimsa is something I am really struggling to maintain.

I am taking an ayurvedic medicine called triphala churna which is known to control vata.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;57536]
Recently my vata reached a very high level and as a result I lost weight, aches and pains started all over my body (the start of arthiritis) and severe dehydration. My mouth would keep drying up that my tongue would solidfy and develop a coating, my skin was getting severely dry as well and my urine was deep yellow. [/QUOTE]

That sounds horrible. You really had a tough time. I also experienced neck & shoulder pain some months back. I thought it was due to CERVICAL SPONDYLITIS. Now its under control.