Hi there
I’ve just come across Paul Grilley’s Yin Yoga DVD where he talks of one of the aims of yin yoga being to stretch fascia and connective tissue rather than muscle.
I’m curious to know what the difference is between the different types of stretches and why the latter is useful.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
Namaste
That might be a question for Paul since he’s the one putting forth the concept.
Gordon,
Would appreciate hearing your take as a kinesiologist on holding poses in a relaxed way for an extended period of time - say three to five minutes.
Benefits and risks? Is it really possible to separate out whether we are stretching muscle or connective tissue when we hold a pose for a prolonged time?
I like to hold asanas for a few minutes to really go into the pose in a meditative way and to feel the energy. I’m not convinced that doing so specifically targets fascia. Any evidence that you know about?
Thanks.
Kathleen
Quick search just answered my own question:
http://jap.physiology.org/content/96/6/2325.long
Exercise physiology research really isn’t my thing and reading it gives me a bit of a headache, but it appears that longer duration stretches (or strain) specifically alter the behavior of the fascia and tendons. Separating out what is fascia stretch and what is tendon stretch isn’t so easy.
Research also suggests that longer duration stretches (>5 min) might impact mechanical properties of the muscle-tendon complex as a whole whereas shorter duration stretches might not.
[QUOTE=patanjali’s babe;64146]Hi there
I’ve just come across Paul Grilley’s Yin Yoga DVD where he talks of one of the aims of yin yoga being to stretch fascia and connective tissue rather than muscle.
I’m curious to know what the difference is between the different types of stretches and why the latter is useful.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
Namaste[/QUOTE]
The benefit from a physiological point of view appears to be an improved range of motion of joints that lasts longer than shorter stretching routines.
The energetic aspects of holding an asana for a longer period of time are another matter. Holding in a pose for a prolonged effort is said to open up and clear energy pathways.
Asanas were originally meant to be held for extended periods in order to facilitate meditation. That’s my take from reading the classical texts. What Grilley calls “yang” yoga is more of a modern invention. “Yin” yoga can’t be credited to him or his modern day teachers, but rather to the gurus who developed Yoga from the beginning.
[QUOTE=theYogadr.;64176]I like to hold asanas for a few minutes to really go into the pose in a meditative way and to feel the energy. I’m not convinced that doing so specifically targets fascia. Any evidence that you know about?
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=theYogadr.;64186]The energetic aspects of holding an asana for a longer period of time are another matter. Holding in a pose for a prolonged effort is said to open up and clear energy pathways. [/QUOTE]
Have you ever pondered what part of our anatomy contains these energetic pathways you speak of? And from a western medical perspective, what the pathways may be?
Thankyou Yoga Dr for a helpful response.
with gratitude.
[QUOTE=David;64190]Have you ever pondered what part of our anatomy contains these energetic pathways you speak of? And from a western medical perspective, what the pathways may be?[/QUOTE]
Ironically the symbol for the American Medical Association shown below, appears to represent the Pigala/Ida with the serpents and the staff similar to the Sushumma, yet modern medicine seems to be made up of anatomy(physical) and psychiatry(mental) they don’t pay much, if any, attention to the Pranic Flow(energy pathways)?
BTW how do I make an image appear with the post?
Patanjali’s Babe - You are most welcome!
Ray_Killeen - There’s a lot of confusion out there about the traditional medical symbol. It is NOT the caduceus with two snakes with wings around a rod, but rather the rod of Asclepius, which has only a single snake and no wings. I have to admit I like the symbolism of the former better. 
David - I don’t believe there is any anatomical correlation for the chakras. They are not nerve plexes or spinal cord or anything else in gross manifestation. They are not electromagnetic energy as put forth by some. That’s easily measurable as is evident by basic heart EKGs and brain EEGs. All living things, even single cells will produce perceptible electromagnetic energy that can be measured with current instrumentation. That energy doesn’t correlate any more than the gross anatomic structures.
What is this subtle energy then? It’s something we currently have no way to measure. Science is FAR from having everything figured out. There are many mysteries that remain both in physics and in physiologic science. We don’t know what we don’t know and therefore the easiest thing to do is to decide that if we can’t see it and can’t measure it then it doesn’t exist.
Regardless of whether or not science will someday be able to measure this energy and therefore be able to agree that it is “real” I believe it is a valuable psychological construct nonetheless. Our minds need to be able to break things down in order to work things out. Frued’s ego, id and superego are not real anatomical regions or measurable energy, but they help us to understand ourselves and are useful to stimulate healing. The same with the Inner Child construct in modern psychology. There isn’t some little child curled up in our abdomens, yet not too many people disagree that we all have an inner child that needs attention and nurturing.
I feel “energy” from some asanas, meditation techniques and other yogic practices. Perhaps it is my imagination since there is no way to prove it, but I’ve found thinking about and experiencing this energy therapeutic and growth provoking. It’s healing for me and for the patients I work with. That’s enough for me.
Could there be subtle energies yet to be discovered by science? Of course.
Could science already have a pretty good understanding of much our anatomy but uneducated/unrealized yoga practitioners then spread misinformation that leads to anything but yoga? Guaranteed.
Let’s take for example this thread where we discuss stretching fascia and connective tissue rather than muscle. That’s like me saying I’m going to dive under water and breathe by just breathing the oxygen atoms out of the H2O. NOT going to happen because they are way too bound with hydrogen. Let’s look at some anatomy of connective tissue, shall we? First off, connective tissue is more than just tendons and ligaments, it is ALSO fascial sheaths that surround or bind muscles into their corresponding groups. These fascial sheaths include:
The Endomysium which is the inner most fascial sheath which surrounds INDIVIDUAL muscle fibers. Try stretching a muscle without those bad boys coming into play.
The Perimysium which is the fascia that binds groups of muscle fibers.
The Epimysium which is the outermost fascia that sheaths the entire muscle.
I believe that much of what we speak of FEELING in yoga can already be explained by modern science. But because the yogis don’t speak science and the scientists don’t speak yogi, we each claim the other just doesn’t get it or it hasn’t been discovered yet or we’re pot smoking hippies or logic based nerds.
Where you and I disagree is here (if we are speaking in the context of the practice of yoga):
This is what our minds want us to think. My knowledge of the above does little more than let me appear to once in awhile sound smart and convince others than I should be listened to. As neither of those are necessary for the experience of yoga and in fact are largely detrimental, I rarely bother with them. And you’ll never hearing me tell my students such things because I’ll be training and busying their minds and diverting their attention from what they can [B]FEEL[/B].
During my first six months of yoga practice I made HUGE leaps forward because I was feeling more and more. Then I got into the “yoga scene” and wanted to be a “yoga teacher” so I started to acquire knowledge and try to sound smart and prove others wrong. My mind got so busy and clouded and confused and confounded that, if anything, I regressed.
Lot’s of blind leading the blind. And sadly, I have no doubt blinded others in my time. 
If we want to share yoga with students, we must help them feel. It doesn’t matter if you’re stretching this or that, what matters is what you feel.
Student: “Am I stretching muscle or fascia?”
Teacher 1: “Both, because blah blah blah blah blah”
Teacher 2: “What do you feel?”
I’ll take Teacher 2. Of course, the student will likely respond with:
Student: “I think I’m feeling muscle stretch”.
“I’m not interested in what you think, just what you feel.”
“I feel my muscle stretching.”
“I’m not interested in what you think, just what you feel.”
“…”
The reason I replied as I initially did is because some other teacher outlines the purpose for the yoga he is teaching. If his work is to stretch fascia rather than muscle then that is his work and so be it. It is not for me to validate or refute his work. It’s actually tough enough to explore, discover, and live my own.
As it relates to the nature of postures, passive poses do have a purpose. However, active poses that are “held” for a “long time” are not held in a relaxed way (in the Yoga I study, practice, and teach). The work of actions in active poses is the very essence of refining over time. The pose is not static, though it may appear as such to onlookers. The pose is quite dynamic - when the student is well guided and the teacher well trained. Lying around and feeling good is pleasant but it is not necessarily yoga.
I have yet to find, in my practice, an ability to separate the actions in muscle from the actions in sheaths of connective tissue. Of course tendons and ligaments qualify as connective tissue and the actions should not go into those as they are secondary support when muscle fails. The work of asana (again, in my practice) is to learn how to properly use muscle - something science will not unearth since they cannot account for the subject’s awareness/consciousness/mind in the doing.
Anatomy is nice. Science is important. But they are only helpful (in my practice) when it is applied anatomy. As David alludes to, information is knowledge but application is wisdom.
So I try not to get too caught up in the antagonist of this and the reciprocal of that unless it’s incredibly germane to what’s being done. And I’ll leave the discourse with the following fascinating article which I hope everyone will read AND not renounce science in the process.
I’m very couscous about stretching tendons and ligaments…since they have little or none blood supply and regenerate slowly…and meanwhile you injure them they do hurt at the moment…
I’m not sure what is the composition on fascia…but it seems like it is very much tendony composition…
[QUOTE=David;64249]
Let’s take for example this thread where we discuss stretching fascia and connective tissue rather than muscle. That’s like me saying I’m going to dive under water and breathe by just breathing the oxygen atoms out of the H2O. NOT going to happen because they are way too bound with hydrogen. Let’s look at some anatomy of connective tissue, shall we? First off, connective tissue is more than just tendons and ligaments, it is ALSO fascial sheaths that surround or bind muscles into their corresponding groups. These fascial sheaths include:
The Endomysium which is the inner most fascial sheath which surrounds INDIVIDUAL muscle fibers. Try stretching a muscle without those bad boys coming into play.
The Perimysium which is the fascia that binds groups of muscle fibers.
The Epimysium which is the outermost fascia that sheaths the entire muscle.
Where you and I disagree is here (if we are speaking in the context of the practice of yoga):
This is what our minds want us to think. My knowledge of the above does little more than let me appear to once in awhile sound smart and convince others than I should be listened to. As neither of those are necessary for the experience of yoga and in fact are largely detrimental, I rarely bother with them. And you’ll never hearing me tell my students such things because I’ll be training and busying their minds and diverting their attention from what they can [B]FEEL[/B].
During my first six months of yoga practice I made HUGE leaps forward because I was feeling more and more. Then I got into the “yoga scene” and wanted to be a “yoga teacher” so I started to acquire knowledge and try to sound smart and prove others wrong. My mind got so busy and clouded and confused and confounded that, if anything, I regressed.
Lot’s of blind leading the blind. And sadly, I have no doubt blinded others in my time.
If we want to share yoga with students, we must help them feel. It doesn’t matter if you’re stretching this or that, what matters is what you feel.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting that. I was thinking to myself that the idea, in itself, made very little sense. As a Massage Therapist, I know how to manually do work to affect the fascial sheaths more effectively, but you cannot separate them. Perhaps he’s speaking of some sort of method of stretching that more effectively converts the fascia to it’s more ‘sol’ state?(which a slow, prolonged, gentle stretch can help achieve) Or maybe he’s speaking of doing specific stretches to affect specific ‘trains’ of myofascia?. . . I’m not sure shrugs But, indeed, you can’t effectively do anything with one, without affecting the other, in some way. Of course, bodywork/massage can also be an excellent supplement to a yoga practice. Anyone for some myofascial release?
( anatomytrains.com/explore/dissection <- pictures of human cadavers, to illustrate these ‘trains’) you will have to copy and paste this link because I don’t have enough posts here, to be allowed to post links.
Indeed, CityMonk, these various sheaths come together at the muscles ‘end’ to form the tendon, but it doesn’t stop there. Many groups, or ‘meridians’ or ‘lines’ (whatever you’d like to call it) are connected by a continuation of these tissues into adjacent muscle. The page I posted (but could not link) above demonstrates these ‘trains’ of muscles formed by this continuous length of fascial tissue.
A good thing to keep in mind. I can see myself leaning towards that, at times. Thanks for sharing
[QUOTE=patanjali’s babe;64146]Hi there
I’ve just come across Paul Grilley’s Yin Yoga DVD where he talks of one of the aims of yin yoga being to stretch fascia and connective tissue rather than muscle.
I’m curious to know what the difference is between the different types of stretches and why the latter is useful.
Thanks in advance for any responses.
Namaste[/QUOTE]
I have a 200 hour yoga alliance cert that I received through a Yin Teacher. She was a student of Satchitananda in the 70’s and later a student of Sai Baba.
Note that there are three types of fascia… Superficial, Deep, and Visceral.
It must be understood that fascia covers every strand of muscle fiber in the body as well as encasing the musles as sheath and even muscle groups, seperate them from other muslce groups. The thickness of fascia is only one cell layer thick.
Aside form allowing muscles to slide over each other, there’s reasearch that suggest it also contracts on it’s own in order to aid in the healing process of injured muscles.
Research also suggest that as creatures age, the fascia in the body constricts resulting in improper muscle alignments.
In regards to Paul Grilley, he’s a beliver in yin/yang. In Yin yoga, there is emphasis on the aspect of preparing the body for meditation. So, to understand what Grilley is suggesting, you must consider the context of a yin practice.
An example he uses is orthodontics. By an applied force on a part of the body, with slow gradual change over long periods of time, it is possible to create a physical change within the body.
By being in a passive poses withough muscle energy engaged, the fascia allegedly has a chance to become stretched.
A similar technique is utilized in myofascial release by specialists in the massage therapy field. Points are compressed within the muscles and held for longer periods of time focusing on relaxing the muscle enough so that the fascia can be manipulated. The work is great for aiding in healing muscle injuries but its often uncomfortable to sit through, and most of the time there’s mild brusing involved.
[QUOTE=JSK;65243]
. . . .Aside form allowing muscles to slide over each other, there’s reasearch that suggest it also contracts on it’s own in order to aid in the healing process of injured muscles. . . .
[/QUOTE]
Now, this I did not know. Very interesting. Thanks for that tidbit 
A new article has been written that you all may want to read:
http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f37/what-happens-when-we-stretch-8628.html
Excellent article.
Thanks or sharing 
While many people are familiar with stretching muscles, they may not know that they can also stretch fascia.
Fascia is a thin, elastic layer of connective tissue that lies underneath the skin and muscles. It extends from the top of the head to the bottom of the toes, and it attaches each muscle to bone, holding the body together. Composed of layers of collagen, elastin and other proteins, fascia helps to maintain muscle tone and flexibility. Stretching fascia helps to increase blood flow and relieve tension in the muscles.
Because it's under your skin and around every muscle, fascia is difficult to stretch without proper guidance. However, with a little direction from a physical therapist or yoga instructor, you can be on your way to feeling more limber!
HOLD THE ARM OUT SIDEWAYS, EXTEND THE ARM WITHOUT EXTENDING THE SHOULDER, JUST KEEP THE SHOULDER RELAXED NOT LOCKED. THAT FEELING, JUST AROUND THE ELBOW ON TOP OF THE FOREARM, AND INSIDE THE ELBOW, I BELIEVE THOSE ARE TENDONS. it's interesting and you probably know this conceptually, but the famous shaman Juan matus taught his students that there is a lot of shock to you a lot of chi a lot of energy locked in our joints. and so I think this is good work regarding tendons. I ALSO HAD LEARNED WHAT YOU SAID THAT EXTENDED STRETCHES DO HELP WORK WITH THE FASCIA. AND FINALLY THERE ARE ACTIVE FASCIA RELEASE OR STRETCHING TECHNIQUES. SOMETIMES AROUND INJURIES BY THE WAY FASCIA KIND OF GETS STUCK AND CAN BE FREED UP. IN REGULAR LIFE, MAYBE A LITTLE BIT. THE FASCIA SEEMS TO BE WHAT RUNS JUST NEAR THE SURFACE OVER THE MUSCLES, I GUESS aND THROUGH EVERYTHING..... and if I'm not mistaken that's where a lot of the acupuncture meridians are, but I'm sure that's not exact, but anyways I actually do know how to release fascia a little bit actively. the trick is if we apply, and obviously these are not asanas, perse,if we apply firm pressure to our arm or anywhere we are accessing muscle. the trick to accessing fascia with active release is to only use a nickel's worth of pressure. that's almost nothing. that way we're not grabbing the muscle accessing the muscle. and so here's a example. flex your arm,(elbow) wrist toward shoulder. then with your other hand place your four fingers over the inside of your upper arm just right up at the elbow joint or fold. maintaining that with just a nickel's worth of pressure,just gently then slowly begin to extend the arm back out to extension. you will feel that. Second ecsample:sometimes the fascia around the skull is kind of tight and just using a nickel's worth of pressure and just moving (and just to be clear in the one we just talked about there's no moving of the skin you're kind of just holding it in place near the elbow above the elbow while the arm extends). here we're actually slightly moving the skin and the fascia.)what feels like the skin but we're a little bit more than that the fascia is actually attached to the skin by the way. so with your fingers or yer hand however you want on any part of your head gently move the skin just a little tiny bit. and hold that. it should move freely in all directions just a tiny little bit. actually yah take that tiny bit of slack out of the skin, and then hold that for about 5 to 10 seconds usually is enough unless you feel more.GENTLY!!! you will literally feel the energy releasing you will feel sometimes it hurts a little bit but mostly not. a tiny bit. but mostly not but it's amazing. and what I described first with the elbow can be applied to any joint area
sorry I missed one typo correction on my reply. it should have said Shakti instead of shock to. because there is no shock at all. it's all good lol