Thank you Madelaine.
I was aware that we must see anyone and everything as atman, as something with the same essence and the same consiousness (same, not similar !) as ours. Than, if I think of what you said, I think atman is our inner guru, and atman is also the outer guru.
Dear medelaine
i am totally agree with your statement that once inner guru will arise then there are no need of outer guru?
but the thing is that how many of us are able to find inner guru ???
mine thinking is that when we were in school then at that time for every subject we had a diffrent masters which shows us some techniques to learn that subect very faster by use of their experience. that,s why we go to tuition or special classes right id we want master in this small type of matters to understand those things
Now here in spiritual practices main thing is that we dont know about the thing and we had just jeard all that so if a experienced person is there to help us then there is nothing bad in to that till the time we are able to reach our inner guru.
thanks
siddhyog@hotmail.org
Meditation, Meditation Techniques, Kundalini Yoga, Prana Healing, Kirlian Photography, Mantra Yoga, Relaxation Techniques, Kundalini Shaktipat, Advance Yoga, Meditation Retreats - Siddhyog Meditation
an outer guru, can it make you find your inner guru?
Yes. But I think of it as a very unpleasant experience. 
What if the guru says you must climb the tree and throw yourself to the ground with your head forward ?
I heard a story like this. All disciples refused, but one. That one was saved by the guru, but doing this, he gained instant liberation. (Samadhi)
Or think of Peter walking the water. Initiation can be done by means like this, in the presence of a liberated soul. Still, today it might not be necessary. Reason is much stronger in us today, and it can be a powerful tool to understanding.
peter walked on water but he must have had some belief and faith in what jesus said otherwise would he have tried? If he doubted what jesus said 100% he would not have made that first step. To follow the advice of an outer guru, that is an inner choice and can only happen when the inner guru is ready?
slight confusion, I definately do think the physical presence of Guru accelates ones spiritual progress. The Guru can facilitate direct experience of the Self, he/she can then then help us sustain this connection through observation of our Klesas and guidance as to appropriate practices to diminish them. Just as we are all the Self but don’t realise our true nature, it can be the same with our Guru, becuse of our mental obstuctions we just don’t recognise him or any one or anything else as the Self. When we do all is Guru/Self/Atman/ Brahman?
[QUOTE=Madelaine heinemann;4817]slight confusion, I definately do think the physical presence of Guru accelates ones spiritual progress. The Guru can facilitate direct experience of the Self, he/she can then then help us sustain this connection through observation of our Klesas and guidance as to appropriate practices to diminish them. Just as we are all the Self but don’t realise our true nature, it can be the same with our Guru, becuse of our mental obstuctions we just don’t recognise him or any one or anything else as the Self. When we do all is Guru/Self/Atman/ Brahman?[/QUOTE]
the balance between individuality and oneness. in life we are always walking a line
sometimes on here it can be confusing to discuss. We try to put into 100 words or less what we have spent years trying to understand. Nonetheless I have very much enjoyed this conversation. it is a lot of fun
Lets not end the fun. (If it is at all some fun)
One has to have a LIVING GURU only or the GURU can be who have already taken Maha Samadhi ?
Is there really difference between a Guru and a SatGuru (also written as SADGURU) ?
God is the only true Guru so of course one needs God
Semi-random thoughts on gurus:
So many of my teachers during a time of crisis and growth in my life told me to “look within” I thought if another person told me that, I would have to say “Yahhhhhh !” and “Not you, too !” That is one way to do it. Contact the guru within. It is hard, however; it requires stepping backwards out onto the bank, away from the swift-running waters of our cultural norms and diversions.
One needs to have or to create a reason to take this path, and one needs a nature and circumstance that allows one to perservere in it. Otherwise, one does not maintain the watchful rigor of tuning into inner arcana (“higher wisdom” sounds too haughty here). With the sincere practice of meditation and yoga, one can make this “tuning in” a second-nature habit
A guru is an external guide for those in the majority who swim in the waters of cultural norms and diversions.
A guru once was a wild, exotic thing in the USA. In the sixties and seventies, gurus were popularized by people who did drugs (!), said “peace brother,” and generally seemed in a world apart from the one I inhabited. Does anybody else remember Gurus having the reputation of being cultish and kinda like pashas in wild rumors that they got to have sex with the pretty young girls, and whatever they said, people followed, believed, and did without question? Did this really even happen, or was this just rumor and innuendo?
For a long time in my yoga practice I gave gurus a wide, wide berth.
There is another reason why, as well.
As a young girl, I was educated in a strict, ultraconservative religious dogma. From the age of five until fourteen we daily learned lessons, memorized texts, and attended services. This was the same school that my maternal grandmother attended, so it was a socio-cultural religious experience. From about the age of nine onward I began having dreams and visions that called these teachings into question. It took many years to overcome the fear, instilled by these dogmatic teachings, of punishment from God. I struggled long and hard to tease apart what pieces of information to keep and to use and which to leave behind. Anyone who has experienced the rigors of pulling away from this kind of dogma will not be a wholehearted candidate for a guru who tells them what to say, think and do.
I found Maharishi’s teachings to be useful in part (I still practice TM) but overly strict taken whole cloth, ruling even the kind of music during the time of day one listens to. Not that that is a bad thing, I am just too free-spirited to honestly conform to that. Even the meditation community leaders in Fairfield, Iowa, that I knew, didn’t keep the rigorous meditation schedule they externally purported to maintain.
Too much rule, regulation, external dictation breeds hypocrisy ! I don’t know how to get around that, really. How much is too much and for whom?
Ammachi and Ravi Shankar also had an agenda, a business aspect of their tours and teaching schedules that didn’t always blend well with their spiritual messages and images. I adore Amma and consider her hugs some of the most precious experiences of my and my children’s lives. I use and treasure Ravi Shankar’s breathwork as an important benchmark in the development of my practice. I do not think of them as capable of bad things- - helping children in poverty stricken areas of India, and creating ashrams in Canada are truly impeccable motives. It’s just that, whenever a guru is external to you, it creates potential conflicts and complications that you need to be prepared to see (not go into denial about) and work through with your inner guru. Often gurus are followed by millions of people. How is it possible to access them when you need them?
your inner guru, however, is comfortingly close, 24/7. Eventually, it gets more and more worth it, to brave the inner chaos, to train yourself to recognize the still, small voice within, and more possible to see gurus in chickadees and sidewalk clowns, to understand your truth is always available within, and then anything, ANYTHING at all, even a breeze, can trigger a valuable message for you.
[QUOTE=Hubert;4815]
What if the guru says you must climb the tree and throw yourself to the ground with your head forward ?
I heard a story like this. All disciples refused, but one. That one was saved by the guru, but doing this, he gained instant liberation. (Samadhi)
[/QUOTE]
I heard this story in a yoga ashram and thought it is a crime to tell this story as they did - to follow your guru without thinking yourself. There are lots of instable persons who already do this (yellow press likes to write about it …).
No dictatorship can be possible if people take responsibilities themselves and think themselves. I think thats what people need to learn a lot. They are already following any kind of leaders much to much. We need to have more civil courage, standing up ourselves without waiting for any leadership.
[QUOTE=Janet Carpenter;5104]
your inner guru, however, is comfortingly close, 24/7. Eventually, it gets more and more worth it, to brave the inner chaos, to train yourself to recognize the still, small voice within, and more possible to see gurus in chickadees and sidewalk clowns, to understand your truth is always available within, and then anything, ANYTHING at all, even a breeze, can trigger a valuable message for you. [/QUOTE]
Yes!
You can take your life as your guru! You can take your boy-/girl-friend as guru and other people who are close to you, who easily push your buttons, the nature … .
And you can also have a teacher for yoga.
I avoid the word guru here as I think never ever should anyone do what another person is telling him/her without questening it. Every guru is - no matter how much he/she is in his/her spiritual way - just a human being and can be wrong, can get cracy, … .
Its easier to give the responsibility for your own life away to a guru and just do what you are expected to to.
But if you want to evolve as a human being (and not only in a whatever spiritual way) you need to take the responsibility for you yourself.
I find a lot of peace in the last part of your post janet. You put the words I wanted to say, in a way I did not. I think when I can let go of ego I can find the inner guru, if only for a moment. so when I quiet myself/ego, then I can listen to what i had within all along.
ooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
[quote=Karin;5156]I heard this story in a yoga ashram and thought it is a crime to tell this story as they did - to follow your guru without thinking yourself. There are lots of instable persons who already do this (yellow press likes to write about it …).
No dictatorship can be possible if people take responsibilities themselves and think themselves. I think thats what people need to learn a lot. They are already following any kind of leaders much to much. We need to have more civil courage, standing up ourselves without waiting for any leadership.
[/quote]
If you are in the mountains, with no climbing and mountain experience, do you follow the guide or not ? The whole point of having a guru is to walk a safe road, and doing so achieve heights you would not be able to achieve alone.
But you are right in that if that guru is not a real guru than you fall on your head and die. So the bad thing is not obedience, a virtue often overlooked in todays democracies, but being obedient in the face of ignorance.
Obedience is a great way to get rid of the ego. In a world what lacks so much the sacred, the faith in something higher, respect is a rare attitude. When you respect someone or something, obedience comes from the heart. If someone is well trained in this, can be obedient even if he/she does not understand the reasons of the actions required by their master. The fact that people’s obedience or faith was abused historically so many times, does not mean that obedience is something wrong per se.
So it is bad to generalize. Obedience is not blind faith, but faith in the judgement of someone wiser. It is just hard to accept for the ego that there are people wiser than us. And because noone is perfect, it is usually easy to pinpoint a flaw in a otherwise great man’s character, than discard his whole teaching or life. That’s why most people never find a real guru, because they don’t see the wisdom behind the surface, what’s usually flawed.
There is probably more to the story I said. Probably the disciples knew the guru well, otherwise why would they follow him ? They had faith in him to a certain extent, based on his former teachings and “signs”. But only one of them was advanced enough to have faith in him to the level that he did not care for his own life.
You assume that it is expected from you to do the same. This is not the morale of the story. The morale is that there are people who are capable of this kind of selflessness.
[quote=Karin;5156]I heard this story in a yoga ashram and thought it is a crime to tell this story as they did - to follow your guru without thinking yourself. There are lots of instable persons who already do this (yellow press likes to write about it …).
No dictatorship can be possible if people take responsibilities themselves and think themselves. I think thats what people need to learn a lot. They are already following any kind of leaders much to much. We need to have more civil courage, standing up ourselves without waiting for any leadership.
[/quote]
If you are in the mountains, with no climbing and mountain experience, do you follow the guide or not ? The whole point of having a guru is to walk a safe road, and doing so achieve heights you would not be able to achieve alone.
But you are right in that if that guru is not a real guru than you fall on your head and die. So the bad thing is not obedience, a virtue often overlooked in todays democracies, but being obedient in the face of ignorance.
Obedience is a great way to get rid of the ego. In a world what lacks so much the sacred, the faith in something higher, respect is a rare attitude. When you respect someone or something, obedience comes from the heart. If someone is well trained in this, can be obedient even if he/she does not understand the reasons of the actions required by their master. The fact that people’s obedience or faith was abused historically so many times, does not mean that obedience is something wrong per se.
So it is bad to generalize. Obedience is not blind faith, but faith in the judgement of someone wiser. It is just hard to accept for the ego that there are people wiser than us. And because noone is perfect, it is usually easy to pinpoint a flaw in a otherwise great man’s character, than discard his whole teaching or life. That’s why most people never find a real guru, because they don’t see the wisdom behind the surface, what’s usually flawed.
There is probably more to the story I said. Probably the disciples knew the guru well, otherwise why would they follow him ? They had faith in him to a certain extent, based on his former teachings and “signs”. But only one of them was advanced enough to have faith in him to the level that he did not care for his own life.
You assume that it is expected from you to do the same. This is not the morale of the story. The morale is that there are people who are capable of this kind of selflessness.
[QUOTE=Hubert;5168]If you are in the mountains, with no climbing and mountain experience, do you follow the guide or not ? The whole point of having a guru is to walk a safe road, and doing so achieve heights you would not be able to achieve alone.[/QUOTE]
a thought
if you are stranded in the mountains and there is no guide, then what? Do we believe that we cannot find our way?
Hi Guys,
I think you are all gurus…we’ll find our way. …sometimes others can help.
Here are some gurus on youtube:
YouTube - John Sherman Meets Gangaji - Part 1
YouTube - John Sherman Meets Gangaji - Part 2
YouTube - Gangaji
YouTube - Being Alone/ Adyashanti
YouTube - Eckhart Tolle, not reacting to content, www.soundstrue.com
YouTube - Self-Cognizing Emptiness
YouTube - OSHO - Strange Consequences
Wishing all peace,
love Soul
[quote=tubeseeker;5174]a thought
if you are stranded in the mountains and there is no guide, then what? Do we believe that we cannot find our way?[/quote]
Than you are one who was foolish enough to venture to such heights alone, and you’ll have to manage it alone. Even so, you probably will have somone who’ll watch over you, your guardian angel, to say it in christianism’s terms. And the guardian angel might say, I am sick and tired of this irresponsible fool, it’s time to teach him a lesson. And you almost die, but you are miraculosly recovered by some trackers who happen to pass there. Than you’ll say to yourself, damn me, if I ever venture to the mountains alone.
Isn’t it smarter than to, at least, consult a guide, who already covered the track you want to do ?
Hello Dear Ones,
I want to invite everyone to read (or reread) Mukunda’s original 2 posts that began this thread.
There are gorgeous gems there that should be savored.
Many Blessings,
Hello Hubert!
[QUOTE=Hubert;5168]If you are in the mountains, with no climbing and mountain experience, do you follow the guide or not ? The whole point of having a guru is to walk a safe road, and doing so achieve heights you would not be able to achieve alone.[/QUOTE]
I follow the guide as long as I think he/she is right and knows what to do. If I am in doubt about that and think something else is better I will not follow.
And thats the same with my yogateachers, my psychotherapist ? . I respect that they have lots of more knowledge and experience (at least in specific subjects) than myself and might “see” a lot of things were I am to blind for. But the last responsibility is with me. And if I notice something is not good for me I’ll trust my inner “guru” and none outside “guru”.
So the bad thing is not obedience, a virtue often overlooked in todays democracies
You know about the Milgram Experiment?
The results show how willingly most people are following ? .
Obedience is a great way to get rid of the ego.
It?s a great way to escape from taking responsibility for yourself.
In a world what lacks so much the sacred, the faith in something higher, respect is a rare attitude.
Well, that doesn?t need a guru. You can see the sacredness in a flower, in the sunrise ? in life itself, the universe, the nature or god (or however you call it)
When you respect someone or something, obedience comes from the heart.
No. But I am probably more like a cat than like a dog. And thats maybe different for most people.
Respect means for me, that the other person is on the same level and not something “higher”.
The fact that people’s obedience or faith was abused historically so many times, does not mean that obedience is something wrong per se.
Thats true.
Its probably just not my picture of what I want human beings to be: free individuals, taking responsibilities for themselves and who like to meet other humans with respect on the same level.
You can find lots of people who willingly followed their guru for a long time and later on somehow managed to come out of it as they noticed that it is not doing them good. Then they have to learn again how to live without their guru as they don’t know how to organise daily live themselves.
But of course if people decide that they want to live like that and are happy with it and do it just for themselves (and do not involve children in it …) … I can’t say anything against it (as long as they are free to leave as they want to).
Obedience is not blind faith, but faith in the judgement of someone wiser. It is just hard to accept for the ego that there are people wiser than us.
Hm, I don’t know if that is hard for people. I know lots of people were I willingly accept that they are much wiser than me.
And because noone is perfect, it is usually easy to pinpoint a flaw in a otherwise great man’s character, than discard his whole teaching or life. That’s why most people never find a real guru, because they don’t see the wisdom behind the surface, what’s usually flawed.
Thats just what I mean: no whatever guru will never make a mistake.
But the concept of a guru is - as far as I understood - just to follow without questioning as he/she is never doing a mistake.
You assume that it is expected from you to do the same. This is not the morale of the story. The morale is that there are people who are capable of this kind of selflessness.
Isn’t it that often people who are not capable to live on their own are blind following a leader/guru? And in this Ashram were a lot of people who looked very lost in life, willingly to follow anyone who makes them believe that he/she is their guru. That was it what made me angry, as I think this people need support to manage their lives themselves and not someone who tells them what to do.
I think a lots of these gurus (not all) are just eager to get a lot of power … .
Regards,
Karin
[QUOTE=Hubert;5197]Than you are one who was foolish enough to venture to such heights alone, and you’ll have to manage it alone. Even so, you probably will have somone who’ll watch over you, your guardian angel, to say it in christianism’s terms. And the guardian angel might say, I am sick and tired of this irresponsible fool, it’s time to teach him a lesson. And you almost die, but you are miraculosly recovered by some trackers who happen to pass there. Than you’ll say to yourself, damn me, if I ever venture to the mountains alone.
Isn’t it smarter than to, at least, consult a guide, who already covered the track you want to do ?[/QUOTE]
we all have made foolish journeys to the forest, desert, or middle of the sea, that is what makes us human. And yes, at times humans can be irresponsible.