Dogma free Yoga

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#50

The caste system is know as the varnashrama dharma in Hinduism is first mentioned in the Purusha Sukta in the Vedas. It describes society like a human being where its feet are the labourers, its legs are the merchants, it’s arms are the merchants and its head are the intellectuals. It is also described in the Gita where Krishna says that he himself has organized society according to the qualities of beings.

Just a small correction there, “It’s arms are the government and civil services”

Surya Deva,

A brilliant summation to invalidate ‘hinduism is a caste system’, a reference to a now irrelevant ancient practice that existed in some pockets of India at some point in time used by some people to dwarf the time-less, universal, meta-scientific wisdom of Vedas inherited by Hindus. I second what you say as a born Hindu myself, who has not seen a trace of that ugliness in the modern times. What remains of the caste system today is only its political exploitation (about which less said the better) and its currency as one of the misconceptions initiated by the vested interests and carried by the casual minds.

Yes, it is a very cheap argument which is basically designed to make Hindus feel apologetic and bad about their religion. However, when a Christian and Muslim says this to me, I simply have to point back at the crusades, holy wars, inquisitions and oppression of women. And the difference is in this case is these were actual acts ordained by their religions. In India there was no body to ordain anything.

It is sad that are so many Western people who just associate Hinduism with caste system, cow worshipping and idol worship without doing any research on its philosophy and history and what its core tenets are. Yoga is very much at the heart of Hinduism.

#51

Yoga may be at the heart of Hinduism, but I doubt that Hinduism is at the heart of Yoga. Let’s take this gem of a quote of SD’s:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34543]The caste system is know as the varnashrama dharma in Hinduism is first mentioned in the Purusha Sukta in the Vedas. It describes society like a human being where its feet are the labourers, its legs are the merchants, it’s arms are the merchants and its head are the intellectuals. It is also described in the Gita where Krishna says that he himself has organized society according to the qualities of beings.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think removing this slice from its context has changed its meaning. Let’s imagine for a moment I was born into this ideal Gitaic society, say…as a foot! Now, I’m a very special foot in that my big toe protrudes out far enough past my large belly and notices that the head (where all the smart guys live) seem to enjoy a pretty good life. Its mouth is munching on all sorts of goodies, and the legs and arms are lively with the fat settling into them. So me, the foot, decides that I want some of that too! When is it my turn to dive into a lovely Ladoo, instead of stubbing myself on hard stones.

I look around all of us idiots out here in the wild west and see that, although slavery and subjegation existed wholly in our past, there have been small provisions made to allow some who are born a special foot to become a big smiling head.

#52

[QUOTE=Yulaw;34538]You might want to pick up some of the books by John Daido Loori, that is if you have not already read them[/QUOTE]

I will, thank you Yulaw. Is there a particular one you would recommend?

Namaste

#53

Greeting Surya-

Thich Nhat Hanh: True self is non-self, the awareness that the self is made only of non-self elements. There’s no separation between self and other, and everything is interconnected. Once you are aware of that you are no longer caught in the idea that you are a separate entity.
Thich Nhat Hanh: It brings you insight. You know that your happiness and suffering depend on the happiness and suffering of others. That insight helps you not to do wrong things that will bring suffering to yourself and to other people. If you try to help your father to suffer less, you have a chance to suffer less. If you are able to help your son suffer less, then you, as a father, will suffer less. Thanks to the realization that there is no separate self, you realize that happiness and suffering are not individual matters. You see the nature of interconnectedness and you know that to protect yourself you have to protect the human beings around you.

That is the goal of the practice—to realize non-self and interconnectedness. This is not just an idea or something you understand intellectually. You have to apply it to your daily life. Therefore you need concentration to maintain this insight of non-self so it can guide you in every moment. Nowadays, scientists are able to see the nature of non-self in the brain, in the body, in everything. But what they have found doesn’t help them, because they cannot apply that insight to their daily lives. So they continue to suffer. That is why in Buddhism we speak of concentration. If you have the insight of non-self, if you have the insight of impermanence, you should make that insight into a concentration that you keep alive throughout the day. Then what you say, what you think, and what you do will then be in the light of that wisdom and you will avoid making mistakes and creating suffering.

The above is taken from an interview with Thich Nhat Hanh in which he shares the Buddhist view of self and non self. Pretty self explanatory.

As far as Buddhism being Nihilistic, again I say they are not! The middle way seeks to eliminate the 2 extremes of Eternalism and Nihilism. Buddhist practice loving kindness and compassion. This is not Nihilism at all, sorry!

Finally, Buddhist consider Nirvana absolute happiness, not nothingness like you suggest.

Again, I will restate the I appreciate and honor Hinduism like I do all religions.

#54

They are basically synonymous terms. Yoga is based on the tenets of Hindu religion dharma, karma, reincarnation, and moksha. It is simply the practical articulation of it. A set of practices based on dharmic principles in order to burn up karmas to stop reincarnation and to attain moksha. The reason I enjoin people on this forum to look into the history of Yoga is to understand how and why Yoga was developed. It was developed by the Vedic Risis for others to experience the Vedic truths they had discovered and documented in the Vedas.

I don’t think removing this slice from its context has changed its meaning. Let’s imagine for a moment I was born into this ideal Gitaic society, say…as a foot! Now, I’m a very special foot in that my big toe protrudes out far enough past my large belly and notices that the head (where all the smart guys live) seem to enjoy a pretty good life. Its mouth is munching on all sorts of goodies, and the legs and arms are lively with the fat settling into them. So me, the foot, decides that I want some of that too! When is it my turn to dive into a lovely Ladoo, instead of stubbing myself on hard stones.

The Vedic literature declare that all are born as Shudras(foot) and then to become either of the other castes one must be twice-born through their own actions and learnings. You cannot become a brahmana by birth. However, if you are fortunate enough to be born in the family of a brahmana due to your good karma, then you have the opportunity to become brahmana.

This is actually quite a scientific way of organizing society. Indeed, it is true that without education one cannot be anymore than a worker. If you get an education then you can get higher occupations.

The difference is depending on your occupations you are given certain rights. The Brahmana being the highest caste and the teachers of society, have no rights to capital or money. The Shudras being workers in society have rights to capital and earning a living but no right to higher education.

The Vedic society is an ideal functional and meritocratic society. I think we could benefit immensely by adopting this model and replacing our current capitalist society where the merchants have all the power.

#55

Namaste Lotus girl,

There is something even beyond interconnection, it is oneness. In oneness there is no two or three, there is no light and dark, no good and bad, no positive and negative. This is the Self. This is who we really are.

I do not disagree with Buddhism that our phenomenal self(the self as it appears to us) is indeed a dependent function, which depends on everything else. It is nothing more than a set of relationships made up of the skandas.

This is identical with the ahamkara(I-maker) which is a construction and a false self.

Buddha was not saying the self does not exist he was saying whatever we think that is the self does not exist. If you reject this pure I-am-ness then you do indeed have nihilism.

If I am really only a function of the world, contingent on everything else than life becomes completely pointless. I am, however, a spiritual being, then life has a purpose.

If you interpret the religion of Buddhism authentically then one cannot escape the conclusion that it does indeed deny the self. It actually says the self is momentary and is created and destroyed every moment. Now as I said does this mean I can go and rape somebody, and when the act is finished, I could just say, “It was not me who did the rape”

You will not be able to defend Buddhism from this charge.

#56

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34598]Namaste Lotus girl,

There is something even beyond interconnection, it is oneness. In oneness there is no two or three, there is no light and dark, no good and bad, no positive and negative. This is the Self. This is who we really are.

I do not disagree with Buddhism that our phenomenal self(the self as it appears to us) is indeed a dependent function, which depends on everything else. It is nothing more than a set of relationships made up of the skandas.

This is identical with the ahamkara(I-maker) which is a construction and a false self.

Buddha was not saying the self does not exist he was saying whatever we think that is the self does not exist. If you reject this pure I-am-ness then you do indeed have nihilism.

If I am really only a function of the world, contingent on everything else than life becomes completely pointless. I am, however, a spiritual being, then life has a purpose.

If you interpret the religion of Buddhism authentically then one cannot escape the conclusion that it does indeed deny the self. It actually says the self is momentary and is created and destroyed every moment. Now as I said does this mean I can go and rape somebody, and when the act is finished, I could just say, “It was not me who did the rape”

You will not be able to defend Buddhism from this charge.[/QUOTE]

I think you should go study AND LEARN a little Buddhism, also go study AND LEARN philosophy. You’ll save yourself a lot of typing on here once you have a better understanding of these subjects.

#57

I have studied Buddhism. I have a degree in Philosophy remember. Do you?

#58

Surya,

I really don’t understand how you interpret things. I want to, but it’s hard to say the least!

The Buddhas says the self does not exist because we are all interconnected. We are all part of everything. I think that is beautiful indeed! The Buddha and all the great Masters teach that the self is an illusion. The true self is the non-self awareness that the self is made only of non -self elements. There is no separation between self and other and everything is interconnected as quoted above. This is the very essence of Buddism. They reject 'I" in favor of “we” is another way to look at it. That doesn’t mean it is nihilistic at all! In looking again at the definition of Nihilism, in no way shape or form does buddhism fit. It is truly beautiful to think we are all interconnected, part of everything. They don’t believe in nonexistence or anarchy. They believe in laws and have morals and values. With that being said, I’m sure there are some buddhists out there who consider themselves Nihilistic just like there are differences in every religion.

We probably won’t ever agree or see eye to eye on this one, so let’s just leave it that we disagree. OK?

#59

Lotusgirl,

I am saying there is something beyond interconnection and that is oneness. The Buddha and the masters did not teach the Self is an illusion, they teach that the self as it appears to us is an illusion.

Here is a definition of the Self from the great Upanishads: When one hears nothing but the self, when one sees nothing but the self, when one tastes nothing but the self then one is immersed in the self only. The Self is all there is. Here there is no separation at all because everything is the self.

You are making a very fundamental mistake by misinterpreting Buddha’s teaching of anata for no self. If this is really what you believe then you cannot defend Buddhism from nihilism. Like I said if I rape somebody then later I can claim that “I” did not do it, because there is no “I” I am just a function remember? I can blame my skandas for what I did.

Let me ask you directly. If I raped somebody, can I be punished for that rape? If there is no “me” then who did the rape and who is being punished?

#60

OK, now I’m sold…check this out.
http://inmovies.ca/home/julia_roberts_converts_to_hinduism/7cee195b

#61

Greetings again Surya,

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34602]I have studied Buddhism. I have a degree in Philosophy remember. Do you?[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are quite educated. My husband has a Masters in Philosophy and is a Buddhist. It is how I became interested in Buddhism after being raised Catholic. He is the most brilliant person I have ever met. He agrees with everything I have shared with you about Buddhism.

Agree to disagree perhaps? Hope so, I’m getting carpal tunnel syndrome from typing so much! LOL

#62

Originally Posted by FlexPenguin
Yoga may be at the heart of Hinduism, but I doubt that Hinduism is at the heart of Yoga

FlexPenguin,
Yours is a correct statement. In fact, the period of Yoga and Vedas, has been placed by many scholars between 5 to 10 thousand years ago (ref: “The Arctic Home of the Vedas” by Tilak) when no modern religion existed. One shouldn’t be surprised if traces of Yoga are found adapted in other religions as well. The difficulty with Hinduism is that it is not institutionalised and it puts under its wings a range of disparate philosophies. So, to lend it any identity in the context of other religions is bound to be misleading. An example of such forced labeling is the caste system which was a socio-political saga of a certain historical time-period which the vested interests of that time tried to authenticate with a twisted interpretation of some Hindu scriptures. Elaborating on that will be unnecessary, but only one correction in SuryaDeva’s interpretation of “twice-born” which is only a literal translation and the real meaning is “transformed” with the knowledge of Vedas. (And that is one basic problem with the Vedas when we understand about it through English translations made mostly by British “researchers” in occupied India who looked at everything through colored glasses and that is distortion and a huge loss in translation.)

But, as usual we are straying away from the origin of this thread. YogiAdam’s question was about use of contemporary Yoga and the veracity of fusing “good” things in Yoga with the other disciplines. (I attempted an answer earlier but I guess it was too arcane and boring; so nobody commented on it.)

Yoga has a similar problem as Hinduism. Even though, Sage Patanjali brilliantly attempted to document the essence of Raja-Yoga, the Vedic literature has many variations of the Yoga concept and many more technical details. Yoga is a generic name applied to all such techniques aimed at physical fitness to spiritual enlightenment as well as it is a term that describes the processes of healing, welness and spiritual transformation. Since no single individual can put her arms around this entire Yoga, one looks at one aspect and embraces it. The mistake she makes is in forgetting that it is just one aspect of Yoga.

To YogiAdam I would say this: Yoga is so vast, generic and touching the very basics of humanity that all of us do adapt only parts of it. Now trying to fuse them with other disciplines is one’s free choice. The beauty of Yoga is that in any form it only helps. What use is Yoga? - it is limited only by your readiness to change/ transform.

Most of what is discussed in these forums can be avoided, as even with a use of common word “Yoga” we are really addressing various parts/ aspects of it. There is also no need to bring in Hinduism or any other religion in the context of Yoga. What would be of immense help for the seekers visiting here is to know more from other people who know about the particular aspect, rather than getting caught in the cross-fire between two blind persons vehemently defending respective versions of the proverbial elephant.

#63

Namaste Suhas Tambe,

I think you might be buying into the propoganda theory of the Aryan Invasion theory, which today is widely discredited and not even Western scholars who originally proposed it, accept it anymore. It is according to this theory that a gulf between the Indus valley period(3000BCE and prior) and the Vedic period(1500BCE) is posited. However, this has been disproven by modern archeology by excavations at the Indus sites which have revealed Vedic features such fire altars, Vedic iconography and symbols, as well the townplanning is according to Vedic metrics(as prescribed in Kautaliyas Arthashastra) The clearest evidence that has emerged which is incontrovertible is the discovery of the Indus-Saraswati river which dried up in 2000BCE alongside many of the Indus settlements were described, but it is described in the Rig Veda as a thriving river and its geography and path is described. Therefore the Vedic people were in India long before 2000BCE. Now based on several different types of evidence the Rig Veda can be dated to be about 6000BCE. In other words there is no such gulf between a Vedic period and an Indus period.

The Aryan Invasion theory is a modern invention and it was created by Chrisitian missionaries to fit Indian history into a Judo-Christian historical timeframe which posited that human history begins in 4004BCE. The Indian historical records however presented a historical timeframe which went very far back into antiquity and recorded history going back to 10,000 years and gave very exact dates. The same history was recorded by the Greek historians which recorded Indian history going back 10,000 years. Now, with the help of scientific archaeology we have been able to confirm that this history is correct. We have even been able to find ancient cities like Dwaraka(or what is very likely Dwaraka) which were submerged as described in the Mahabharata.

In other words India and Hindusim is Vedic. There is no evidence of there being any gulf.

#64

Yes, you are quite educated. My husband has a Masters in Philosophy and is a Buddhist. It is how I became interested in Buddhism after being raised Catholic. He is the most brilliant person I have ever met. He agrees with everything I have shared with you about Buddhism.

Agree to disagree perhaps? Hope so, I’m getting carpal tunnel syndrome from typing so much! LOL

Please convey my salutations to your husband. However, please ask him to answer the ethical problem I presented with the rape problem. As I think that it is philosophically indefensible if we accept that the Buddhist momentary theory of self. Who is it that rapes and who is that gets punished?

#65

I will Surya.

#66

OK SD, here it goes.

Nothing like a heavy philosophical conversation after dinner>>>.hum.

The ? is really about responsibility. One of the central purposes of Buddhism is to direct the energy of an individual away from suffering and the cause of suffering. If someone rapes an individual they are amplifying suffering. Conditions that preceded and determined the make up of the person who did the rape were also the result of suffering and that is the Wheel of Samsara in which suffering is being perpetuated within. While there is no individual self responsible for actions there is a “person-ing” process that was caused by karma. The reason the Buddha decided to do something after his enlightenment is he realized that people have the ability to redirect their karma and purify it until they reach the point that they can leave the wheel. So if someone commits a crime within Samsara, then the conditions of Samsara apply. The stronger the action, the more energetic the action and the stronger the karma.

I am-ness is associated with ego in Buddhism. The ego has attachments like power and control.(which are know to be reasons for rape) Buddhism wants to shed the ego or self of those attachments. Therefore they would not commit a rape like you have described. (I realize I cannot categorically say, “No Buddhist would ever rape an individual”. Just like I cannot say no christian would ever commit adultery)

There you have it!

#67

Namaste,

Thank you to your husband for the response.

I must say I do not think it vindicates Buddhism from my charge of nihilism. On one hand we have the doctine of “no-self” and then on the other hand we have the beautiful ideal of eradicating suffering for the entire world. Now my problem is this whose suffering are you eradicating if there is no self? You cannot certainly be eradicating your own suffering because there is no real you. You also cannot be eradicating the suffering of anybody else, because there is no real them. Therefore how can one reconcile this beautiful ideal of ending suffering for all with the doctrine of no self?

If I want to motivate somebody to do something good such as doing charity or not doing something bad such as rape, I would have to first convince them of the benefits and costs of their actions to them. If I say to them, however, that the agent who does the action does not endure, so the one who reaps the benefits or the costs of the action is not them, how will I motivate them to do something good or not do something bad?

I can visualise myself telling my child in the future, “Hey boy/girl, you do not really exist so whatever you do, it is not you doing it” Then the next moment my boy/girl goes and does something very naughty. I scold them and they retort, "It was not me who did it"
I can visualise myself later telling my child when he/she grows up be a teenager, “Listen, I want you to study hard at school” and then them retorting “Why? The one that gets the grades is not me, so why should I”

In other words if we accept the doctrine of no-self then we are fully justified to accept nihilism. It is a logical consequence of such a doctrine.

I look forward to how your husband will respond to this.

I am now going to demonstrate why this doctrine of no self is completely illogical. It is first of all counter-intuitive to human psychology where the human always does something only if there is a benefit for them. It can be a material benefit or a spiritual benefit, but if there is nothing in it for them they will not act. Secondly, it is contradicted by the fact of memory. I remember that I am the same person that existed 5 min ago, 5 hours ago, 5 days ago and 5 years ago. I remember most of my life and I remember the goals I set for myself. I remember my parents, my friends and relatives.
When I did my degree it was I who worked hard for it and it was I who got rewarded for it. Now how does your husband explain his Masters? If he is not the one that worked for it then how can he say that it is his?

There is a very beautiful argument in Vedanta against this no-self doctrine. The fact is that there is perception of the world. If there is perception then there must be a perceiver. Just as if there is vision then there must be somebody who sees. Or if there is knowledge there must be a knower. If we doubt the perceiver, seer and knower, then there must be something that can doubt the the perceiver, seer and knower and therefore the existence of the perceiver, seer and knower is established.

Another argument from Vedanta is that “I-am-ness” endures from moment to moment. All that ever changes is the content of “I-am-ness”. About 5 min ago I was aware of myself reading an electronic book. Now I am aware of myself as reading and responding to your post. The only thing that has changed is the activity I was aware of. The fact that awareness has endured has not changed. It has never changed in my entire life. When I was 5 I was aware of my body as a 5 year old. Today I am am aware of my body as a 30 year old. Therefore “I-am-ness” has never changed.

Now revisiting the citation you made from Buddha. Buddha said anata is I am perception, I am sensation etc. That is not the same as “I-am-ness” That is “I-am-that-ness” So Buddha is not actually denying the self he is denying the predicates of the self. He is saying that self is predicateless. However to deny the actual subject of the predicates would result in absolute nothingness and nothingness cannot be the support of anything.

Therefore I submit to you that you have fundamentally misunderstood Buddha’s teaching. This teaching is not logical and not supported by experience. What Buddha taught was that I-am-that-ness does not exist. He did not teach I-am-ness does not exist. In fact he taught it did exist because he said that after reaching enlightenment one becomes a Buddha and the Buddhas continue to exist in higher planes of reality. Therefore he never denied “I-am-ness” but rather asserted it.

Hindusim teaches exactly the same doctrine Buddha taught. That we are not “I-am-that-ness” but we are in fact the pure “I-am-ness” The word that both Buddha and Hindus use for that “I-am-that-ness” is ahamkara(I-maker), the false ego.

#68

Thank you for your response. It’s late and I will re-read it in the morning and share your thoughts with my husband. Night.

#69

I thought I would share this beautiful gem of a poem by Sankara, the Atma Shatakam, who is teaching the same doctrine Buddha taught:

I am not mind, nor intellect, nor ego,
nor the reflections of inner self (chitta).
I am not the five senses.
I am beyond that.
I am not the ether, nor the earth,
nor the fire, nor the wind (the five elements).
I am indeed,
That eternal knowing and bliss, Shiva,
love and pure consciousness.

Neither can I be termed as energy (prana),
nor five types of breath (vayus)
nor the seven material essences,
nor the five coverings (pancha-kosha).
Neither am I the five instruments of elimination,
procreation, motion, grasping, or speaking.
I am indeed,
That eternal knowing and bliss, Shiva,
love and pure consciousness.

I have no hatred or dislike,
nor affiliation or liking,
nor greed,
nor delusion,
nor pride or haughtiness,
nor feelings of envy or jealousy.
I have no duty (dharma),
nor any money,
nor any desire (kama),
nor even liberation (moksha).
I am indeed,
That eternal knowing and bliss, Shiva,
love and pure consciousness.

I have neither merit (virtue),
nor demerit (vice).
I do not commit sins or good deeds,
nor have happiness or sorrow,
pain or pleasure.
I do not need mantras, holy places,
scriptures (Vedas), rituals or sacrifices (yagnas).
I am none of the triad of
the observer or one who experiences,
the process of observing or experiencing,
or any object being observed or experienced.
I am indeed,
That eternal knowing and bliss, Shiva,
love and pure consciousness.

I do not have fear of death,
as I do not have death.
I have no separation from my true self,
no doubt about my existence,
nor have I discrimination on the basis of birth.
I have no father or mother,
nor did I have a birth.
I am not the relative,
nor the friend,
nor the guru,
nor the disciple.
I am indeed,
That eternal knowing and bliss, Shiva,
love and pure consciousness.

I am all pervasive.
I am without any attributes,
and without any form.
I have neither attachment to the world,
nor to liberation (mukti).
I have no wishes for anything
because I am everything,
everywhere,
every time,
always in equilibrium.
I am indeed,
That eternal knowing and bliss, Shiva,
love and pure consciousness.