Double Pigeon woes and now wrists as well?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

Dear all,

I’ve been lurking for a while, but tonight I thought I’d trouble you with a problem hoping you can provide some guidance.

Some background information: I am female, in my twenties and finishing up my studies. Said studies have caused me many physiological problems in the past two years (or I should say psychophysiological as they are stress related) since I am a complete overachiever and tend to work myself to the bone while psychologically I can become a wreck.

Last year I decided to do something about this and entered a Mindfulness course which helped me enormously, until I decided that no, I did not have the time to spend on it any more and that all my time and energy should be focused on being the best I can in my career. Naturally I had a relapse and almost had a burnout late this summer.

Enter stress management, where my coach suggested I take up yoga, which with only minor resistance (!) I took up. I practice 2-3 times a week, doing Flow and Power Yoga at a studio. Not only did I find myself falling in love with yoga, but, importantly, my physiological symptoms have abated to a GREAT extent. (symptoms: extreme tension migraines, stomach problems, intestinal problems, shoulder-neck tension and PAIN). My Mindfulness background also helped me connect with yoga immediately, fully appreciating that it allows me to focus my attention in the moment and not drift in the past or the future (as might be my case), helping to ease my stress symptoms immensely. I am saying all this to stress that the psychophysiological benefits of asana practice have been very valuable to me.

Now the problems: it seems my teachers love the poses that give me the most trouble, namely double pigeon and wheel :eek: I am very flexible with forward bend poses and very good with balancing asanas, but as you have probably guessed my hips are useless when it comes to opening them. Double pigeon is excruciating for my hips. I follow my instructor’s directions in order to not hurt the knees (top leg placed on top of the other precisely so the leg underneath is not visible - perfect triangle, ankle placed on the knee, not inside the leg, both feet flexed). Moving the spine forward to open the hips hurts A LOT and the top knee is always high up in the air. Trying to touch my hands to the floor HURTS. Since my instructor seems to always put us in this pose I decided to practice by myself at home with gentler hip openers so that maybe, with time, I might hurt less in class. To this end I have been practicing poses like the bound ankles pose and the single pigeon. However, I have found that the single pigeon hurts my bent knee. This a very slight pain, but how should I say, I feel it. I am not sure I meant to feel it. And after having lurked around this forum for a while I have really taken in the message that knees are not to be messed with. I approached my instructor with this, demonstrated how I go into the pose and how I hold it and she told me I do it fine, and was even surprised I felt something in my knee. The worst part was that she said that if I want to open my hips she thinks I should continue trying with the double pigeon because in her opinion that is the best hip opener there is… So I go back to square one because the reason I was doing the single pigeon in the first place was to try and do the double one with more ease :frowning: I kind of don’t know what to do. Perhaps not bending forward at all when in double pigeon is what is right for me? However, if I do that, am I helping my hips to open at all? Or am I not progressing at all in helping my hips become freer?

My other problem is that I notice lately that my right wrist is giving me a little pain if I push it. And by pushing it I mean going into a full wheel at the end of the class. Which, believe me, I’d rather not, I much prefer finishing the sequence with Karnapidasana, which I am actually good at and does not hurt. However, my teacher prefers the wheel instead and it seems to be not really an option. I CAN come into the full wheel but if I try to do it twice (which might have caused the problem in the first place…) then I find my right wrist will not hold me any more. Problem is, today, without doing a wheel, which was when the pain had previously manifested, I tried to practice Bakasana (not fully doing it, as I absolutely cannot, just trying out the balance and strengthening as my instructor suggested) and I felt the pain again.

Now I take all the warnings you have written multiple times in this forum about listening to your body and pain very seriously, as I most definitely do not want to injure my body. I sport a lot and love being in good condition, I do not want to jeopardize my physical well-being (well, not any more than I do unconsciously with my horrible stress prone personality anyway…). What should I do? Should I continue with yoga, or is it not for me? I would really like to continue but now after having felt the pain in my wrist again today I find myself wondering if even Chaturanga (which as you can imagine features a lot in my flow and power classes) is safe for my wrist?? On the other hand, I find it really hard to give up the psychophysiological benefits yoga has brought into my life.

If you have read this far, thank you. Any advice you could give me will be greatly appreciated.

Divina

#2

Hello Divina,

I’ve had a full day and just returned home from teaching so pardon me if I am less than succinct. I have read your post and want to try to synthesize your question(s).

[B]Our chat here is about asana[/B], not Yoga. This is an important distinction as you have inquired whether “yoga is for me”. Yoga is for every body and for everybody. However in addressing asana (poses or postures) there are a myriad of offerings from one’s the move only one muscle to ones in a sauna wearing a bikini, and all points in between.

[B]There should not be sharp pain in a joint in asana ever[/B], period. So for your posting I would need distinctions drawn as to the nature, degree, duration, and location of “pain”. Pain is far too general unless you are only looking for an anecdotal, coffee-talk sort of reply.

[B]What Yoga would be present in a practice where the student [I]only[/I] did what they were already “good” at[/B]? To foster growth of the human being there must be things asked that you are not good at, not comfortable with. Staying in one’s comfort zone is the surest way to achieve mediocrity and avoid reaching potential. You already know this from your nature in studies. Point? It’s absolutely critical that you encounter things you are not proficient in.

[B]Two yoga teachers,three opinions[/B]. This makes it incredibly difficult for new students to cultivate the requisite skill of discernment, a skill opposing judgement rather than embracing it. Now on to pragmatics…

The pose you reference as “double pigeon” is a pose that requires hip opening rather than providing hip opening. Yes, there is some opening provided, however when the top shin does not rest on the bottom shin that person does not have the required opening in the hips AND therefore may not be best served in coming forward with the spine. There are particular actions in this work and it is THOSE things which should be conveyed to the student. Frankly, without the appropriate actions most poses are either pointless, risky, or ineffective.

As for the wrists, there are several poses of concern when there is wrist pain; (I’ll use English rather than Sanskrit) Downward Facing Dog, Cobra, Upward Facing Dog, Inclined Plank, Plank, Four-limb Staff, Side Plank, Crow, Upward Facing Bow, and Handstand. The pain is addressed by the teacher using modifications and/or props. If the pain can be ameliorated, fine. If not, then the more demanding of these poses should be avoided so as not to exacerbate the issue(s).

How would I conclude here? I would invite you to examine the concept of finding the right asana practice for you so that you may receive the myriad of benefits Yoga has to offer - without the pain.

#3

Divina,

Welcome to the forums!

Gordon addressed much of what is concerning you. Just a couple things to add:

Wanted to re-emphasize the importance of listening to your body. If there is pain when doing the pose, you need to discontinue. You very appropriately went to your teacher with your concern of pain. I really don’t like to challenge other teachers instruction, however her advise to you is something I would not give my students. When a student comes to a teacher with a concern (i.e. pain) it is their responsibility to address it properly. And properly would mean telling you to stop doing it and finding either a suitable modification or a pose to do in place of. One thing you can try in double pigeon (firelog pose) is to place a folded blanket or pillow under the bottom knee if that knee does not touch the mat. You can in place of or in addition to the previous, bring your bottom foot more toward that hip. Just keep the top shin parallel to the front of your mat. Don’t try to come forward. Do try to lift through the spine and tilt your hips (top of the hips move slightly forward), but refrain from coming to a forward fold. If this modification doesn’t work for you, try sukhasana (easy pose) in place of.

My guess based upon what you wrote would be tight external rotators which includes (but not limited to) the piriformis. (we hear a lot about this in yoga classes). But again this would only be my guess not having seen you. Nonetheless it is something to explore perhaps with your teacher. Some good stretches would be: 1. reclined twist, keeping knees in to chest 2. reclined pigeon where you cross r ankle over L knee, bringing knees in and weaving hands through either side of L thigh. Discuss these with your teacher.

With wrist pain, it is best to rest the wrist to allow the tissue to heal. After you’ve rested, you can try this:
Seated with hands in Namaste, drop hands down a little. Bring back up. Point fingers down, then back up. Shift arms to right, keeping forearms straight and then to left. This sequence is quite good. Wheel pose requires a great deal of wrist extension. Resting and then gradually introducing gentle extensions can help. You can also use a yoga wedge to help lessen the amount of extension of wrists.

Good luck and keep us posted.

#4

Hi Divina,
I wish I had a yoga practice when I was in college. I didn’t start until I was 30. But anyhoo…let’s address the joint pain you mentioned. Specifically knees, outer hips, and wrists.
A safe variation of double pigeon, as lotusgirl mentioned, is sucrirandhrasana, or eye of the needle pose. This is done on your back. You can also do this with your lifted foot against a wall. On the side that you’re getting the outer hip stretch, keep that foot flexed! That will protect the knee joint.

This is a response from Anusara yoga founder John Friend regarding your exact question of wrist pain in urdhva dhanurasana:
[U]The remedy in this instance is to open up the shoulders and upper back, using good alignment principles in a variety of less advanced backbends. Then, when eventually attempting a full backbend such as Urdhva Dhanurasana, the student will have an easier time keeping the forearms vertical. If at that point she still can’t get the forearms vertical, modifications include placing the student’s hands on a rolled mat or on wooden blocks against a wall, or on the ankles of an assistant. In all cases, the student should place her hands at least as far apart as her outer shoulders. [/U]

#5

Hello everyone,

Thank you so much for taking the time to advise me and to give me your thoughts. Let’s see if I can get back to you on some of the things you mention.

InnerAthlete, you asked me about the nature of the pain. I always have a little trouble both describing and differentiating between different kinds of pain, but I will do my best. My wrist pain is only in the right wrist and it is a slight, that is it doesn’t feel heavy. If I could give it shape, I would say it is a thin pain so that is probably what you describe as sharp. I have the feeling that the pain should not be there, that is why the pain rang alarm bells for me. This feeling probably stems from the fact that I cannot imagine what it is in there that is hurting, whereas for the hips I can clearly feel the bones hurting, if that makes sense. The hip pain now, this is heavy, it actually feels like a ‘weighty’ kind of pain. This is not a sharp pain, it is more generalized and I feel it in my chest, that is, it gives me the emotion that I cannot breathe even though I make sure to actually breathe, following my instructor’s urging to send my breath to where I locate the pain. I am not knowledgeable in the anatomy of this part of the body so I can only try to give you an approximation from pictures I just found online… From the outside I would say the most pain is located exactly on the hip bone protrusion extending backwards and down to what I would call Apollonian muscles (do you say that in English??), but inside the bone. Looking at pictures I would hazard the guess that the pain lies in the top of the ilia as well as the ischia and the acetabula. At the end of double pigeon I hardly feel I can extend my leg again (I do this very carefully with both hands) but somehow the pain is gone soon and I can continue fine with the sequence. The next day or sometimes the day after that as well I can feel some soreness in my bones but nothing that has worried me so far, I just always presumed it would be okay in the end… until I started reading this forum last month and you know the rest… :slight_smile:

Another confusing thing for me is that Yoga has helped me with pain so cannot easily differentiate between good pain and bad pain. When I first started I had a bad ankle injury from a bike accident that didn’t seem to want to heal. At that time even child pose hurt me A LOT. Miraculously, what didn’t seem to heal for six months healed very quickly (in 2 weeks) of yoga. This confusion between good pain and bad pain is also compounded by my Mindfulness training which basically taught me to let go of pain and find peace with it. This is what I applied when I first begun my asana practice (which did hurt) and found myself going deeper and actually not hurting within a few weeks time. This probably does not sound normal at all I am sure…? :-? Related to this I find it a bit confusing to understand your advice in challenging yourself while doing asanas that do not cause pain. The asanas I find that challenge me are the ones that cause me discomfort, so I am a bit confounded on this point. Would you be so kind and clarify when you have the time?

Lotusgirl and Yogaleader thank you so much for your advice and the alternative options as well as variations you have suggested, I will try to practice these gentler options in my own time so as to hopefully, with time and patience give some room to my tight, rusty hip joints and muscles. Yes, the piriformis sounds about right from the picture I just saw online. I appreciate your advice on resting my wrist. I decided that probably the best course of action is to stay away from my yoga classes for one or two weeks as well as avoid my sports classes that require me to put weight on my wrists (e.g. pushups, planking, side planking etc.). I hope I do not sound like giving up, because I am not, but I will not be able to rest my wrist in a Flow or Power class where I am required to often perform downward facing dog, chaturanga, etc. I will start again as soon as I feel my wrist is healed but think that perhaps I should give poses that put too much strain on my wrist (e.g., wheel, bakasana practice) a miss until I have strengthened my wrists enough with time. I am not sure how I will know that my wrist is strong enough again. But I believe my body will tell me. As for the forearms being vertical, that is not a problem any more… I was only able to come into the full wheel once I learned to keep them straight… However, I am starting to think that the wrist problem might have to do more with the fact that my wrist is not only not as flexible as it should be yet, but also because it is only the right wrist that gives the problem that perhaps I am tiring it too much behind the computer (back to the studies problem and me turning square-eyed from data analyses behind my computer every day). I do hope that if I keep working on my wrist flexibility and strength (with the exercises you suggested, but also through the gentler asanas such as downward facing dog, chaturanga) perhaps this will be ameliorated for the future. What do you think?

As for the hips… This will be a long road. Maybe my hips are not even made to open that much which is a sad thought. I would like to keep challenging myself so as to later on be able to come into more poses that require hip opening. Who knows if that will happen? But if I could see that knee come a little closer to the floor and my pain reduced, that would already make me happy.

#6

Pain and discomfort are not the same thing.

Moving one end of a muscle away from the other end (defined as stretching) will naturally be uncomfortable. When the stretching stops, so does the discomfort - generally speaking.

It is reasonable to expect discomfort in asana.

Pain is something else and it too is uncomfortable, but it is more than discomfort. Separate the two.

#7

Alright. Perhaps my confusion arose from the fact that you said “sharp pain should not be present in asana” and not “no pain should be present, only discomfort is acceptable”. Arguably too, discomfort is a subjective feeling (as might be pain) and people have different thresholds, ie. two people might push themselves beyond what might actually be acceptable but their reported experience might be different while both are in fact causing harm. Just a thought.

Also, you asked me for distinctions about the location, degree and nature of the pain. After my description, are you better able to give me some guidance?

#8

Hello Divina,

Since you’ve quoted me inaccurately I’ll have to straighten that first. I did not say “sharp pain should not be present in asana”. My actual quote is pasted in below:

[B]There should not be sharp pain in a joint in asana ever[/B]

Ergo I was making no reference whatsoever to muscles but to a caution as to potential harm in joints specifically.

The hip experience you describe does not sound concerning to me. After ten years of asana practice there are still poses where, when held and worked, I have to be very mindful when coming out or having to “extend my leg again”. Hip opening poses will effect tight muscles in the hip (in a positive way) when the doing has integrity, actions are present, and the student builds their awareness progressively with patience. Point? I’m not alarmed by what you’ve shared and in my own body would not have a deep concern over such things unless they were ongoing (over the span of several months without any progress).

What sort of additional guidance would you like beyond “good teacher”, “mindful practice” “increasing self-awareness” and the difference between “hip openers and poses that require hip opening”?

gordon

#9

No, this is exactly the answer I was looking for, this explanation makes me feel much better actually. I will continue with yours as well as Lotusgirl’s and Yogaleader’s suggestions and hope that with time and patience I will see some improvement.

The extra guidance I was asking for was some feedback on the specifics I provided on the pain since you asked for them in an earlier post. Your sharing that this does not sound concerning to you eases my mind, so this is what I needed. It gives me confidence that there is not something horribly off with what I am feeling.