Emptying The Mind

Spirituality
#21

[QUOTE=core789;31997]Hahahaha…i was’nt sure how this suggestion might go down. Or what your experience might be with meditation. [/QUOTE]

I’ve been doing one form of meditation or another for probably 30 years or more, although I’m not very disciplined about it.

Deep forms of mantra meditation where you transcend the thought modification( mental streams) and quickly transcend the mind, go beyond (and sort of nullify it) ,arriving at pure bliss consciousness,the natural state, very quickly are probably the most effective.You transcend the limited mind self through the cultivation of deep inner stillness or inner silence.

Repeating a mantra is not cessation of thought, it is focusing on a single thought or sound. Although one does quiet the mind, mental activity doesn’t stop. The sense of enjoyment or bliss is a form of mental activity.

Surely it’s more about the [I]letting go[/I] of thoughts, the releasing of mind-modifications

Letting them go where? Releasing them from what?

It’s the ceasing of identification with them. Identification , so we are told at least,being linked up with the false self.

This is more to the point.

[B]The ceasing of identification leads naturaly to the cessation of thought[/B].

Actually it’s more about clarity of perception, seeing things as they really are, without the coloration of our conditioned experience. It’s kind of like Michael Jordan -Just do it-. Cessation is about liberation. So yes, if you’re about permanently eradicating your material nature forever, cessation is what you want.

#22

Then you can rest alone with this interpretation. However, next time you tell somebody they are wrong, remember that most translators disagree with you.

I do practice Yoga by the way.

#23

I think the chances are you have not been meditating properly if you are not actually stillling the mind. It shows as well, I am afraid.

Repeating a mantra is not cessation of thought, it is focusing on a single thought or sound. Although one does quiet the mind, mental activity doesn’t stop. The sense of enjoyment or bliss is a form of mental activity.

The use of an object in meditation is indeed a thought. Now, what the object of meditation does is reduce other thoughts and gradually stop them, so only one thought remains and that is your object of meditation. In the final stage of meditation even that thought goes.

Letting them go where? Releasing them from what?

Here is an easy way of understanding this. If I have a lump of wax, I can mould it into a candle stick, a statue, a ring and anything else. The stick, statue and rings are only forms of the same substance of wax. Likewise, the chitta or mind-stuff is the substance which takes on the forms of the vrittis.
So to say we have let the vrittis go, it means we have let go of the forms and dissolved them back into the chitta.

Actually it’s more about clarity of perception, seeing things as they really are, without the coloration of our conditioned experience. It’s kind of like Michael Jordan -Just do it-. Cessation is about liberation. So yes, if you’re about permanently eradicating your material nature forever, cessation is what you want.

I would not disagree with this. However, you are mixing up the perception with the mind here. Patanjali says the seer is nothing more than the power of seeing or perception. On the other hand, the mind is what the seer sees, so it is an object of perception. Just like the tables and chairs you look at are objects of perception. The seer is the one that sees.

It is very clear to any experienced meditator they are not what they can see.
In sutra 4 Patanjali tells us that those who have not attained chit vritti nirodha, identify with what they can see. So they think, “I am the body, the mind, the ego, personality” The aim of Yoga is to cease all these identifications and as a result these illusory forms disappear. Just as the snake disappears in the rope when one realises there is no snake.

Your understanding of Samkhya and Yoga is lacking, to be very honest with you.

#24

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;31956]and in Zen we are told to just do without thinking. [/QUOTE]

Having been a long time zen practioner this is news to me, unless i am misunderstanding your meaning. The ideal in zen afaik is not to cling to thoughts. Suzukis advice on thoughts was to “let them come in the front door and go out the back” “without inviting them for tea”. Its about non clinging not thought supression. If one looks inward, thoughts quiet themselves anyway.

#25

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;31956]
It is common knowledge in Eastern religions that it is the thinking mind which is what is the cause of suffering and bondage. In Yoga we are told we cease it, in Buddhism we are told to empty it…[/QUOTE]

SHRAVAKA’S STATE OF CESSATION…In the context of Mahayana or Vajrayana practice, this state is used in a derogatory sense and is renowned as a severe sidetrack from the path of the enlightenment of the buddhas. The mistake comes from regarding meditation practice as being the act of cultivating and fixating on a state in which sensations and thoughts are absent.

My favorite quote from Dakini Teachings, p.181. Apparently the common knowledge is not quite correct. Need I say more?

#26

This might help clear the misunderstadiing morlock:

According to Zen, you are of the very thing you are looking for. Do not make sex a goal or even a big deal; instead, let sex results naturally from the way you live your life. That is, don’t “try” to do it; you simply “do” it naturally. This “doing without doing” is the essence of Zen. This ultimate sublime wisdom of living is aptly expressed in the following:

Therefore . . . . . The sage keeps to the beginning to discover the end . . . . . And finds without seeking . . . . . Arrives without leaving . . . . . Does without doing . . . . . And knows without understanding.

http://www.wapseo.net/?paged=2

Doing without doing or doing without thinking is one of the key philosophical concepts of East Asian philosophy. In Taoism it is called wu-wei.

#27

I’m not up on all my texts, but it seems to me there is a basic difference between “cessation of thought” and “focus”.

Focus would imply mindfulness and a complete presence of self in the moment.

Cessation of thought is well…cessation of thought. Emptying self of self to allow something greater to pour in. What pours in is dependent upon your belief system I would guess. This, of course, is also the crux of why Christians have difficulty with yoga and meditation. You can’t be sure what is coming IN is something holy and not something demonic.

Just my very uneducated two cents folks. I have no literary greatness to back me up, just my own opinion.

#28

Lots of thought about being without thought here. :slight_smile:

#29

Alix, I think the problem Christians have with yoga and meditation is they do not understand the philosophy, and this is partly because they do not understand these main concepts used in Yoga: consciousness(chitta), self(atman), ego(ahamkara )and mind(manas).

In Western philosophy consciousness, self, ego and mind are all taken to be the same thing and this is why there is so much confusion. In Yoga they are not the same thing and very precise definitions are given:

Consciousness: This is the spirit
Self: This is the observer or seer
Ego: This is the personality(I-am-that-ness)
Mind: This is the network of thoughts

So when Yoga tells you to cease the thoughts or empty the thoughts it is only asking you to cease the mind and the ego. It is not telling you to cease or empty the self.

Now it will be demonstrated to you using an extreme example what the mind and ego can do. Suppose you are a teacher at a school and the children are not listening to you and are mocking you. You then experience thoughts and feelings of anger, frustration and think to yourself, “I am the teacher here, they should listen to me” Before you know it you are shouting at the children. They mock you even more. You get more angry, and quick flashes of memories flash by in the screen of your mind of other times when you were mocked. Before you know it you are hurling abuses at the children yourself.

Why did all of this happen? It happened because rather than you controlling your mind, your mind was controlling you. You were a slave to the network of thoughts it brought up and a slave to the limited sense of self “I am the teacher” The mind completey overwhelmed you with its thoughts.

But what if you had from the very start not identified with the thoughts, “I am the teacher, they shoud listen to me” then you woud have stopped the mind right in its tracks and prevented it from creating more drama of thoughts. This would have given you the power to respond with a clearer perception.

What can we learn from this? We learn that we are separate from our thoughts. They have no power over us unless we give them power. We also learn that thoughts when they take place disturb our perception. Finally, if we are indeed separate from our thoughts then we can exist without thoughts altogether and still be aware of self(this is called thoughtless awareness). If our perception becomes clearer by losing some thoughts, then it become absolutely clear when we lose all the thoughts.

This is something Christians need to realise, it is not thoughts which gives them power, but pure awareness. In the light of pure awareness nothing false can stand. So if Christians are really afraid of demons getting hold of them, they are far more vulnerable to demons when they are less-aware than more aware. When they are absolutely aware then they are then in the same divine space as god(holy spirit).

A Yogi does not have to worry about demons, deception or fallacy, because their perception is so acute, they can catch anything, no matter how minute or subte. So can Christians if they practice Yoga and meditation. Demons would not dare come before a realised yogi. The yogi would spot them from a mile.

#30

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32053]Alix, I think the problem Christians have with yoga and meditation is they do not understand the philosophy, and this is partly because they do not understand these main concepts used in Yoga: consciousness(chitta), self(atman), ego(ahamkara )and mind(manas). [/QUOTE]

Surya Deva, the problem Christians have with yoga/meditation are what I outlined in my post above. The potential for possession or acknowledging a power other than God. Period. Of that I am quite sure. While I might not be a scholar of yogic texts, I’m up to date on my theology.

Thank you for the lovely analogy.

Please forgive me my friend if I choose words that seem not to fit to you. The poem is not mine, but I believe it illustrates exactly the idea of emptiness needed to achieve true oneness.

#31

In Western philosophy consciousness, self, ego and mind are all taken to be the same thing and this is why there is so much confusion
That is a good point. This is why a lot of these eastern yogic concepts can be a total anathema when they first fall on western ears.And people between the east and the west are actually talking a different metaphysical language. Some of is tied up in culture but much of it in philosophy.

The christianity V Yoga debate conflict probably stems largely from fear,ignorance & supersition which is a pity.I can see where chirstains are coming from and understand their anxieties but i think theey have’nt bothered to dig a bit deeper. Or tried challenging any pre-conceptions they might have whther it’s themselves or their beliefs.The security of what you think you already know and understand can often seem like a safer place to be.Most folk tend to be like sheep and may be like such just to fit in and get on so they think their life is, comparitively speaking ,easier that way. But it’s all pretty relative. I know that might sound a bit glib.

#32

The poem is not mine, but I believe it illustrates exactly the idea of emptiness needed to achieve true oneness.

It is like emptying the mirror of the muck it has accumulated so you can see your reflection clearly. The mind is the muck and the reflection is you. You will no see this reflection in its full glory until you have wiped that mirror clean.

#33

[quote=Asuri;32005]I’ve been doing one form of meditation or another for probably 30 years or more, although I’m not very disciplined about it.
[/quote]A universal issue i can assure you.

Repeating a mantra is not cessation of thought, it is focusing on a single thought or sound. Although one does quiet the mind, mental activity doesn’t stop. The sense of enjoyment or bliss is a form of mental activity.
It leads to cessation of thought.By favouring one thought though it’s really emerges like a quantum psycho-physical vibration which works on the level of Consciousness, and the experience of Pure bliss is a welcome result or side-effect of that.Mental activity does stop,unless we define Mind to be synonymous with Consciousness.In western philosophy it frequently is,not in the context of yogic philosophy.Not my experience.Natural joy and bliss arises with cessation of mentalising or thought-processes.

Letting them go where? Releasing them from what?
Into the’emptiness’ ,the nothingness,(although there is nothing ‘nothing’ about it- why i don’t always gel with the buddhist terminology) or the vastness of deep inner space.They are dissolved back into pure Consciousness, Inifnite & Unlimited.

And you release them from the bondage to the illusion that the thoughts are an aspect of our real self or true nature.They are the ideas-based conceptual cloud cover that obscures pure awareness of our true self.

Actually it’s more about clarity of perception, seeing things as they really are, without the coloration of our conditioned experience. It’s kind of like Michael Jordan -Just do it-. Cessation is about liberation. So yes, if you’re about permanently eradicating your material nature forever, cessation is what you want.
I don’t see it as eradication or obliteration(’ of your material nature forever’).The material is a manifestation of Consciousness. Even the physicist are now saying that empirical observations of the unverse and reality are dependent on an observer taking measrements and repsectively their vantage point.The new and open frontier in modern science is inner space,Consciousness.The material nature is what is seen or perceived and interpreted as such.So called ‘material science’ does’nt always stack up because different people do the same experiements and actually end up observing different phenomena depnendinig on how they do the epxeriment, their situation and often are guilty of bringing a host of supposed ‘irrefutable’ assumptions and premises about what is given and accepted. Howcan matter be both a wave and a particle.Now that might not sound logical but it does’nt mean it’s not true.I think reality usually ends up turning out to be a lot stranger than we give it credit for.When they discovered pulsars which can be seen as deep-space phenomena or points in deep- space that pulsate because it’s speculated that their gravitiational field osciallates,i.e it varies. Like something that is halfway between a black hole but not technically.There is great deal of mass;it’s a collapsed neutron star basically. Now when this was first spotted this with radio astronomy telscope, they actually thought this pulsation of light could be aliens or extra-terrestrials trying to communicate to us.Sounds like paranoia to me…Then they must have figured there was science to explain this strange phenomena before sharing it with a highly respected journal ,possibly ‘Nature’, and the scientific community at large.

So things are never what they sometimes appear to be .And that there is alot going on that we often either miss or simply don’t have enough unifying theoires and tidy explanations to account for.

You know Asuri, you can go about changing the ‘outer’ world.And the doorway in is through the inner.I can see that meditation cushion calling your name…

#34

Hi Asuri,

Thanks for starting this thread.

Appreciated Brother.

#35

Core789, belief is belief. There are those who will be rigid and those who will be open to new ideas. Religion is not the only fora in which this occurs. If I’m not mistaken we’ve seen rigidity and an unwillingness to see others viewpoints on this very forum in the last few days.

Without getting too much into my own personal philosophies, I believe there is a very valid point in not opening your mind to ANYTHING as there is much in this world that is not goodness and light. I’ve seen many things that I did not once believe could exist. To open oneself to be “empty” you take a risk unless you prepare carefully first.

The longer I live and the more I experience the more open I become to seeing the truth in many different points of view. A weak/untutored mind is not one to be seeking emptiness in this fashion IMHO. A good teacher is invaluable.

#36

Hello Alix,

Surya Deva, the problem Christians have with yoga/meditation are what I outlined in my post above. The potential for possession or acknowledging a power other than God. Period. Of that I am quite sure. While I might not be a scholar of yogic texts, I’m up to date on my theology.
just a short note:

On several occasion I heard christians rejecting Yoga because they reject the idea that a simple human being can acquire or already has qualities of god. These christians didn’t like the idea that a human can sit down, meditate and then become enlightened. They see it as some sort of heresy.

So in a way these reject Yoga for the potential possession of god. :o

#37

[quote=Alix;32075]Core789, belief is belief. There are those who will be rigid and those who will be open to new ideas. Religion is not the only fora in which this occurs. If I’m not mistaken we’ve seen rigidity and an unwillingness to see others viewpoints on this very forum in the last few days.

Without getting too much into my own personal philosophies, I believe there is a very valid point in not opening your mind to ANYTHING as there is much in this world that is not goodness and light. I’ve seen many things that I did not once believe could exist. To open oneself to be “empty” you take a risk unless you prepare carefully first.

The longer I live and the more I experience the more open I become to seeing the truth in many different points of view. A weak/untutored mind is not one to be seeking emptiness in this fashion IMHO. A good teacher is invaluable. [/quote]

What was it Nichole said recently; something like:-

The risk to remain closed became greater than the risk to open.

We all have to open and flower at some point,Alix.

I’m in favour of being open and thus opening up.It’s the only & right way to be. Frankly i prefer not to attach to
all this ultra-conservative Christain-agenda led nonsense. It seems to prey largely on supersition ,fear & ignorance.

I would’nt say i seek emptiness;that is a Buddhist term btw … More like i would’nt exactly say ‘no’ to wholeness as well as openess.

Expansion of Consciousness sounds like a better description to me.

#38

If I’m not mistaken we’ve seen rigidity and an unwillingness to see others viewpoints on this very forum in the last few days.

Hi Alix, speak for yourself.

A weak/untutored mind is not one to be seeking emptiness in this fashion IMHO. A good teacher is invaluable.

Of course, that must be my own.

Thanks immensely for showing me the right way.Very humbling .

#39

[QUOTE=core789;32107]

Hi Alix, speak for yourself.

Of course, that must be my own.

Thanks immensely for showing me the right way.Very humbling .[/QUOTE]

Was that sarcasm? Why?

And I believe I was speaking for myself earlier, and for the others who indicated they felt they’d seen closemindedness here. Did you think I meant you? I’m not looking for a fight core789 nor was I attempting to show you the “right” way to do anything. Rather I was sharing some of my own personal philosophy and experience.

In an attempt to keep the discussion neutral (so as not to stir up the anti religious sentiment that sometimes rears its ugly head in yoga circles) I apparently did just the opposite. Sorry about that.

I’ll take my leave and let you folks battle it out. I’m here to enjoy myself and possibly learn something, not to get sniped at.

#40

[QUOTE=core789;32070]A universal issue i can assure you.
It leads to cessation of thought.By favouring one thought though it’s really emerges like a quantum psycho-physical vibration which works on the level of Consciousness, and the experience of Pure bliss is a welcome result or side-effect of that.Mental activity does stop,unless we define Mind to be synonymous with Consciousness.In western philosophy it frequently is,not in the context of yogic philosophy.Not my experience.Natural joy and bliss arises with cessation of mentalising or thought-processes.
[/QUOTE]

The problem, as I see it, is that people don’t really understand the underlying metaphysics of samkhya-yoga philosophy. What you call Consciousness would technically be called purusa. The definition of purusa is that it has no attributes, so the only way it can be described is in terms of what it is not. Once we recognize that there is an attribute of bliss, that cannot be the pure consciousness because pure consciousness has no attributes.

In my experience, mantras work at the level of the speech center of the mind. If you are able to control that or quiet that, then you realize that there is a level of material nature that is doing the controlling. And there are levels beyond that. I’m sorry to inform you that the level of joy and bliss is not the pure consciousness or purusa.