It is easy to resolve the problem you just raised Asuri. Purusha is indeed without attributes, but biss is not an attribute, but the nature of purusha. Hence why in Vedanta the purusha is satchitananda. When one experiences purusha they experience purusha as absolute bliss, joy and love. Hence why countless mystics testify “god is love”
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32164]It is easy to resolve the problem you just raised Asuri. Purusha is indeed without attributes, but biss is not an attribute, but the nature of purusha. Hence why in Vedanta the purusha is satchitananda. When one experiences purusha they experience purusha as absolute bliss, joy and love. Hence why countless mystics testify “god is love”[/QUOTE]
Well then, it is clear that Vedanta differs from both Samkhya and Yoga. Actually in the sutra where Patanjali talks about this very thing, he doesn’t follow the Samkhya metaphysics, but one of the Upanishads, and he doesn’t follow that exactly. I did some research on this a few months ago, which you can read here.
I was thinking a little more about mantra practice today. Mantras can also be practiced at a level that is a little deeper than speech. That would be at the level of the tan-matra of sound. In this type of mantra practice the sounds used are not words, they are syllables. But they are not just empty syllables, they are symbolic of various things. There is also a lot of imagery and visualization associated with this type of practice. So in this type of practice you are definitely not practicing cessation or stopping or emptying of the mind, although you might not be thinking in words.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32164]It is easy to resolve the problem you just raised Asuri. Purusha is indeed without attributes, but biss is not an attribute, but the nature of purusha. [/QUOTE]
This is a surprising answer coming from someone who is as gung ho about Samkhya as you are. In the Samkhya-Pravachana-Sutram, Kapila says that the purusa is of the nature of [I]light[/I]. [I]Light[/I] is interpreted by the commentators as meaning either consciousness or intelligence. One can always find some scripture somewhere that supports whatever argument one wants to make.
It isn’t surprising, though, that you would take a position opposed to mine, as it seems you are really about politics and self-promotion. I didn’t think you would go so far as to abandon your most rabidly held beliefs, for the sake of trying to win an argument.
Asuri, what you understand to be Samkhya is a very limited historical version. What I understand to be Samkhya is based on the various versions which have existed. Some were consistent with Vedanta and some were not. The Samkhya that I have understood is perfectly consistent with Vedanta and the experiences of yogis who have attained kevalya. They all describe it as absolute bliss and love. Not jusy yogis but mystics in all traditions.
satchitananda refers to pure consciousness; purusha refers to pure consciousness. They both refer to the same thing. A rose called by any other name would still smell of a rose.
You are too occupied with names and cannot see past name into meaning. In Vedanta they call it satchitananda, in Samkhya they call it purusha, in Shivaism they call it Shiva. I hope you realise one day they are all referring to the same thing. You are obviously not familiar with the Vedic verse, “Truth is one, the wise call it by many names”
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32038]This might help clear the misunderstadiing morlock:
Doing without doing or doing without thinking is one of the key philosophical concepts of East Asian philosophy. In Taoism it is called wu-wei.[/QUOTE]
For readers of this thread: There are many good, truthful and reliable sources of information about zen on the internet. Having been a zen practioner with an internet connection for about the last 15 years or so, in my opinion the url posted by Surya Deva in the above post is not one of them. Reader beware.
Hi Morlick,
Which URL might you suggest, about Zen ,whether it’s quite specific to the thread topic or not?
[QUOTE=core789;32233]Hi Morlick,
Which URL might you suggest, about Zen ,whether it’s quite specific to the thread topic or not?[/QUOTE]
This wouldnt be a bad start:
zbohy.zatma.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/xybook/xybook-home.html you will need to copy and paste that into a browser window.
I dont have 15 posts yet so cant post urls.
There is some great audio here everydayzen.org/index.php?Itemid=27&option=com_teaching&topic=Zen+Koans&sort=title&studyguide=true&task=studyguide
I highly recommend the audio series on the heart sutra and emptiness. Also any excerpts you can find on the net from Blofelds “Zen Teachings of Huang Po”
For instructions on actual practice it might be best to look for a group in your area, failing that, the Mountains and Rivers Order has some pretty good practice and posture instructions on their website.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32219]Asuri, what you understand to be Samkhya is a very limited historical version. What I understand to be Samkhya is based on the various versions which have existed.
[/QUOTE]
It is true that I have so far limited my study of the Samkhya darsana to the generally recognized authoritative texts. This is by design. My position is that the other versions that exist have modified the original version in order to make the philosophy compliant with the dominant religious ideology.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32219] The Samkhya that I have understood is perfectly consistent with Vedanta and the experiences of yogis who have attained kevalya. They all describe it as absolute bliss and love. Not jusy yogis but mystics in all traditions.
[/QUOTE]
Well, Kapila was considered to be the incarnation of Vishnu, so that should make him somewhat of an authority on the matter. It has always amused me how, on the one hand, the religious authorities would declare Kapila the incarnation of Vishnu, but on the other hand, would disregard any of his teachings that did not conform with their religious beliefs.
I believe most people think of bliss as the experience of a kind of intense pleasure. According to Kapila’s philosophy, the experience of pleasure and pain occurs in the subtle body.
Topic-6: The Blissful One
12. The Blissful One is the supreme Self on account of repetition.
13. If it be argued that (the Blissful One) is not Brahman, owing to the use of a word (suffix) denoting
modification, we say no, for the word is used in the sense of abundance.
14. For the further reason that Brahman is indicated as the source of Bliss.
This quote is from the Brahma sutra, which I believe is an authoritative text of the Vedanta darsana. So at least we are clear about where this comes from. This is a difference of opinion that is very old. I think the argument here is whether or not the experience of bliss constitutes cessation or emptying of the mind. I say it is not, because even if there is a stopping of thinking in words or conceptual thought, that is a function of the lower mind and there remain other levels of material consciousness that we continue to experience.
Asuri,
I think thoughts have, or may have, a certain “signature” to them, that is limiting for Consciousness, rather than expanding .They lack any deep vibrational resonance that really promotes expansion, but rather can tend towards contraction.
The bliss is concomitant with the experience of pureC.The emptying mind( in words, of course) is a description of the process involved and the resultant state.
I think the thing/argument here is whether or not the experience of bliss constitutes cessation or emptying of the mind. I say it is not, because even if there is a stopping of thinking in words or conceptual thought, that is a function of the lower mind and there remain other levels of material consciousness that we continue to experience.
Bliss charcterises the experience of that state;one unperturbed by thought processes and events as they occur & arise.The absence of monkey-mind ‘consittutes’ cessation or ceasing of endless superfluous mentalising.
You raise a good point though. At the point of dissolution the thoughts,aka ‘mental phenomena’ when they are released the grip we excercise on them is let-go. Elsehwere i heard meditation described as ‘the art of letting go and doing nothing’.Deep mantras are vehicles for facilitating this process.Suggesting they occor largely on the speech-level of the mind i’m not so sure about this.They allow the physical and psychic nervous system(aka subtle bodies) to intelligently re-wire open up,if we let it happen. At what point is a thought less than a thought and border-liine.When i first encountered yogic philosophy i was struck by the fixation perhaps obsession on thoughts.Mantras scientifically yeild expansion whereas limting thought sturctures tend to contraction and/or stagnation.The theory goes that mantras working on the level of mind at first set off a psycho-physical vibration. This is quantum physics in action performed on oneself.Our own body-mind complex is the subject of the experiment.In some forme of deep mantra meditation we often and frequently stopp consciously thinking or mentally saying the mantra, and the mantra continues to work on and focourse beyond the mind,transcending Mind and it’s artifices and limiting constructs,and any concious decision to meditate on it ,make it the object.
Mantras cleanse consciousness. Also work on the quantum level or field of our energetics.They do l this like a tuning fork. And the yogis of the past discovered which sounds were most effective.‘Thoughts’ perhpas have little vibrationally useful qualities or any deep resonance. I’m sure materialism-oriented science will catch on soon enough.In fact i think they are.Quantump physics should explain it all. Perhpas more research done in respected journals might perhpas motvivte more of us to get into meditation, and thus benefit us all.
I say it is not, because even if there is a stopping of thinking in words or conceptual thought, that is a function of the lower mind and there remain other levels of material consciousness that we continue to experience.
Those other levesl we see more clearly once the conceptual cloud-cover of ideas-based thinking & conditioning is dissolved and we’re left with pure awarness. Like clearing the muck of our windsheild,mirrror,lens etc…
It is true that I have so far limited my study of the Samkhya darsana to the generally recognized authoritative texts. This is by design. My position is that the other versions that exist have modified the original version in order to make the philosophy compliant with the dominant religious ideology.
Vedanda is no more a religious ideology than Samkhya is. They are both rational systms of philosophy. Hindu philosophy is not at odds with each other, not all Hindu scholars share the view that the schools are in conflict, but each functions like a ladder. Each school takes a perspective and in so far it assumes that perspective, it is rational. So Nyaya-Vaiseshika take the empirical as their perspective and because of this propound a realistic and atomic theory of matter, and posit the effect is different from the cause. If we accept their core premise everything makes sense in their system. However, this obviously is not a complete philosophy, because it tells us nothing about how realism is possible how reality can exist without senses, minds and consciousness, and what is beyond the empirical and what causes the effect to manifest from the cause. In order to answer these questions an interactionist and dualist philosophy is required and Samkhya-Yoga takes up that mantle. It shows through rigorous argument that beyond the empirical reality of atoms and effects exists a more fundamental mental reality, and that the effect actually is pre-existent in the cause as a potential. It then erects a very elegant philosophy of perception and an empirical idealism. However, like Nyaya-Vaiseshika, it is not a complete philosophical system and fails to explain the interaction between purusha and prakriti, fails to explain how the effect can be potential within the cause, but the effect when manifest is still different from the cause(the tree is different from the seed) So like all interactionalist and dualist philosophical systems, both in the East and the West, monistic philosophical systems are developed to solve the interaction problems. The West developed materialism and the East developed idealism. Western materialism is of course fatally flawed and illogical, but Eastern idealism of which Vedanta is the dominant articulation, is succesfully able to both account for Nyaya-Vaiseshika realism and atomism, Samkhya-yoga dualism and interactionism within a monistic and non dual idealism. Vedanta was successful in doing this, because it all but killed all the rival philosophical schools in India and made way for absolute theism.
Vedanta IS the jewel in the crown of Indian philosophy. It is the most developed philosophical system in the world and an entire way of life. It can answer all philosophical questions and no Vedanta master struggles with even the hardest of philosophical questions, hence why it is called Jnana Yoga. Sankara was on his own able to defeat the nyayaiks and vasishika, samkhyans and yogins, mimasakas as well as buddhists and jains and bought these schools neary to an end in India.
I believe most people think of bliss as the experience of a kind of intense pleasure. According to Kapila’s philosophy, the experience of pleasure and pain occurs in the subtle body.
This is where you vivek fails for you mistake ananda or bliss to be pleasure. Ananda is not pain or pleasure it is the absolute absence of pain and pleasure. This is why it is experienced as absolute and unconditioned joy and love. Pain and pleasure on the other hand are conditioned and temporal.
In the end Hinduism is not about several disparate philosophical systems all existing in harmony with one another. It is sanatana dharma and this means it is the most accurate description of the universal law. In other words it is a science. Science is superior to philosophy because philosophy is abstract and science is real. Hindus have not settled for escapes into philosophical fancy, which is nothing more than fantasy and what Camus calls philosophical suicide. Hindus have always been very practical and real. Direct experience is ultimately the only proof. Nobody settles for anything less. The proof is always in the pudding.
Atoms mean nothing until you’ve actually seen them and their effects(atomic blasts) Electricity means nothing until you’ve actually seen it and used it to power your various appliances. Theory can never substitute for practice. Similarly, my friend, the existence of charkas, nadis, prana, kundalini, siddhis, the other vibrational densities and bodies, devas, karma, reincarnation, atman and brahman will become only proven when you directly experience them. These have been experienced by countless yogis throughout time and in various places in the world. You too will experience them if you practice Yoga. The meditation cushion really is calling your name 
I’ve referred to mantra yoga or the yoga of sound as a good way to bring us to stillness,'empty the mind, stop the thinking of the monkey-mind and our identification with thoughts,inner silence or pure bliss conciousnness,sat-chi-ananda.All just different word, mental expressions,descriptions for the same thing.We don’t need to be too academic about it.The words themselves are cloud-cover.They indeed are an obscuration themsleves. They have to be experienced, of course.
http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/yogaofsound.htm
http://www.rlktrust.org/docs/healing.pdf
These two links explain some of the psycho-physical dynamics involved with this science.It would appear to complement the wave theory of matter & quantum physics and that sound can be used to tie or organise matter & energy and unite it them all harmoniously together with,supposedly it’s source, Consciousness.So in a literal sesne you are whatever you think.Psycho-physical quantum Vibrations work well on Mind & well beyond mind on almost like the faintest most subtle level of feeling, on the ‘soul-level’ you might say…They are quantum experiments on one’s own Consciousness.
Vedanda is no more a religious ideology than Samkhya is
Balderdash, my friend.
These two links explain some of the psycho-physical dynamics involved with this science.It would appear to complement the wave theory of matter & quantum physics
I don’t understand it, therefore it must be right. Sorry but I’m not buying it. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to deal with life.
Balderdash, my friend.
In that case I think you should tell all philosophy departments in the world teaching Indian philosophy that Vedanta is not a philosophy and Samkhya is.
I would be interested in the response you get. Please keep me informed
Hi Asuri,
It’s easier to provide the links than hash out long-winded posts.The links explain them all better than I ever could.
True understanding is borne out of practice, out of experience.That’s why most of my posts are not about philosophy because i’m neither well-read up on the ancient literature or philosophy.Take for e.g prakriti & purusha i have never heard of it, or perhaps familar concepts ,to me, re-expressed.
If folk sound interested in the means to understand those concepts then ,i.e practices ,then that’s what i tend to talk about.The rest is inconsequential and of little practical value or use for the vast majority of people.If PBC was place you end up in, that is all very well but most folk still need a vehicle or path to take them there.
Yoga is a practical philosphy and science. It’s not for navel-gazers or for navel-gazing exclusively.It takes a great deal of more work and effort than being able to engage in logical discursive “arguments”.Though there is nothing really to argue. There is only one way to find out the truth of & the proof for all this, for yourself;)
There are numerous techniques for controlling the mind.
A good one is the yoga system.
The Moral Foundations. The good seat. Regulation of energy. Withdrawl of senses from their objects. and so on . . . Step by Step. Oh baby.
Practice. Patience. Disspassion. Who is it that cares about these silly thoughts?
Do you have the patience to let the muddy waters still them selves? - Lao Tzu (I’m probablly misquoting but point is the same.
Patience. Patience. Patience. Easy Patience. It’s a virtue. It’s a paramita. Did I mention Patience? Said sugar take it slow. Things will work themselves out fine. All we need is just a little patience. Cue guitar solo.