Facing facts

Nietzsche, you and I both are highly critical of Western culture, history and ideology. I am however not critical of Western people. I separate people from concepts. In fact, as ironic as this may sound to you, most of my friends are Western. I enjoy the company of Western people more than I enjoy the company of Indian people. In my experience, finding good Indians really has been like finding a diamond among a sea of sand. Most Indians I have met have been highly materialsitic, greedy and debauched and generally not nice people. I spend 6 months in India studying at an Indian institute, and I was appaled at the behaviour of my Indian peers. Most of the Indian women smoked(even in the West most Western women do not smoke) Most of the Indian men spoke in highly explicit and vulgar language and were rude to the extreme. I faced so many problems by Indians gossiping about me and spreading rumours for little to no reason. In fact I was not the only one, but it was a common practice amongst my Indian peers to gossip about one another and spread malicious gossip. Even back here in the UK, the Indian people I met were not very nice. My experiences growing up with the Indian community were plagued with incidents.

On the contrary, my experiences with Western people were largely positive. I made friends with them much more easily. They were accomodating of me and treated me like I was one of them. I got the same opportunities as they did in social circles. I could open discuss with them and represent my own culture. I have very fond memories of many Western Caucasian people in my life. My teachers, my school friends, my best friends and my current friends who have all been very embracing of me.

I am not going to generalize of course and say that all Western people are nice and friendly and all Indian people are nasty and rude. I separate people from culture. The way current Indian culture is leads to people being rather nasty and rude(urinating, spitting and excreting in the streets, teasing women on the roads, hassaling foreigners, being rude in general) and the way current Western culture is leads to people being more tolerant, acceptant of differences and living more civically. For example here when we get off the bus we say thank you to the bus driver. In India, you have to get off a moving bus!

Suffice it to say I have met more spiritual people in the West than I have in India. I once joined my local Hindu student community at my uni in hope to find spiritual Indians, and what I got instead was the opposite: highly materialistic Hindus that loved going out in huge groups to various towns for nights of debauchary and visited the temples occasionally to worship idols. I never went back.

Do not take me wrong that I am criticising Indians and Hindus, because I am not. I am criticising culture. As it is culture that humanizes us and a citizen of any country is only as good as their culture is. The British succeeded in destroying the entire fabric of Hindu society 300 years ago, and they supplanted it with a new generation of Indians that rejected their own culture, history and traditions and glorified Western culture. Even today Indians are in high praise of Western culture and capitalism.

Meanwhile, in the West the opposite happened, a section of Western society embraced Hindu culture and this lead to many counter-cultural movements and the ushering in of new-thought. In the West, you find more people critical of capitalism than you do in India, where capitalism is rampant. This is also why you find more progressive and spiritual people in the West. This has definitely been my experience.

So what does this all mean? It means that India is no longer the centre of the world and nor is it the centre of spirituality. Even Hindus gurus are moving into the West, because they often find that it is in the West that they find more sincere seekers. Therefore we must accept the fact of today that Hinduism is no longer just the property of India, but it has become the property of the new globalized world. In the new globalized world there is no particular centre anymore. The idea of nation-states will become defunct this century. The world is now becoming more like the ancient Vedic ideal: a global family.

We must abandon all kinds of nationalistic philosophies and think more globally. Currently, the globalized world that we are living in is largely a Westernized world, but it need not be Westernized. It can also be Indianized. This is why I predict that in the future a clash of civilisations will take place: India vs the West; Dharmic vs Abrahamic. Hindus need to push for a Vedic world in rational public spheres. They need to take over the academic world and once again become the teachers for the world. Similarly, spiritual people from other traditions like gnosticism and the new-age need to also push for a Vedic world, realising that Hinduism is their common denominator. Rather than seeing themselves as separate parallel traditions, they need to realise they are actually part of the same Vedic heritage.

The Vedic religion is said to be eternal and therefore it is not the particular religion of any locale or period. It may well have developed in India, but it is not limited to India. It is the religion of all of humanity.

Today, we can no longer talk about nation states. No nation is isolated today but exists as part of a globalized worlds through complex systems of relationships. Therefore if we are talking about a globalized world we cannot just talk about one place in the world. Hinduism cannot survive in the world today if it continues to hold onto the outdated notion of the nation state of India. Rather, we need a Neo-Hinduism which embraces a globalized world. In a globalized world you cannot expect the entire world to accept local mythologies, deities and histories, philosophies. How likely do you think it is that the West will start praying to Krishna and Shiva? How likely is it that the West will reject their own scriptures and start reading the Vedas, Gita and Upanishads? How likely is it Western will reject their own food and cuisine and embrace Indian food and cuisine?

This world is bigger than both India and the West. What about Americas? Middle East? Chinese? Are we are going to them leave out of a globalized world? No, this is why Neo-Hinduism needs to be non-secetarian, it must be the synthesis of all cultures on the planet(See my thread: Contributions of world religions) It must consist of a common world spiritual heritage - not just an Indian heritage.

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;48186]As I said before, most Westerners secretly hate Hinduism for its great philosophies and teachings. So they want to undermine it, since they can’t stand the fact that “shit colored, cow piss drinkers” could create something as profound as Yoga, etc. Eventually, they will dilute and adulterate our teachings so much such that they can play the semantics game and claim Yoga as a Western, not Indian, tradition.[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

POST OF THE MONTH!!! Definitely!

As I said before, most Westerners secretly hate Hinduism for its great philosophies and teachings.

Most Westerners don’t have a clue about Hinduism, and don’t know enough about it to hate it.

[QUOTE=thomas;48362]Most Westerners don’t have a clue about Hinduism, and don’t know enough about it to hate it.[/QUOTE]

But they should, right? :wink:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48354]Today, we can no longer talk about nation states. No nation is isolated today but exists as part of a globalized worlds through complex systems of relationships. Therefore if we are talking about a globalized world we cannot just talk about one place in the world. Hinduism cannot survive in the world today if it continues to hold onto the outdated notion of the nation state of India. Rather, we need a Neo-Hinduism which embraces a globalized world. In a globalized world you cannot expect the entire world to accept local mythologies, deities and histories, philosophies. How likely do you think it is that the West will start praying to Krishna and Shiva? How likely is it that the West will reject their own scriptures and start reading the Vedas, Gita and Upanishads? How likely is it Western will reject their own food and cuisine and embrace Indian food and cuisine?

This world is bigger than both India and the West. What about Americas? Middle East? Chinese? Are we are going to them leave out of a globalized world? No, this is why Neo-Hinduism needs to be non-secetarian, it must be the synthesis of all cultures on the planet(See my thread: Contributions of world religions) It must consist of a common world spiritual heritage - not just an Indian heritage.[/QUOTE]

Well Bravo SD…spiffin good stuff…love it…

[QUOTE=thomas;48362]Most Westerners don’t have a clue about Hinduism, and don’t know enough about it to hate it.[/QUOTE]

Many British people only know the word Islam and Muslim and haven’t any idea of the difference between a Hindu and a Muslim…

There isnt ANY current hatred for Hinduism in Britain that I have heard about!! none on the news…radio…what are you on about Niesitesgche?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48350]Nietzsche, you and I both are highly critical of Western culture, history and ideology. I am however not critical of Western people. I separate people from concepts. In fact, as ironic as this may sound to you, most of my friends are Western. I enjoy the company of Western people more than I enjoy the company of Indian people. In my experience, finding good Indians really has been like finding a diamond among a sea of sand. Most Indians I have met have been highly materialsitic, greedy and debauched and generally not nice people. I spend 6 months in India studying at an Indian institute, and I was appaled at the behaviour of my Indian peers. Most of the Indian women smoked(even in the West most Western women do not smoke) Most of the Indian men spoke in highly explicit and vulgar language and were rude to the extreme. I faced so many problems by Indians gossiping about me and spreading rumours for little to no reason. In fact I was not the only one, but it was a common practice amongst my Indian peers to gossip about one another and spread malicious gossip. Even back here in the UK, the Indian people I met were not very nice. My experiences growing up with the Indian community were plagued with incidents.

On the contrary, my experiences with Western people were largely positive. I made friends with them much more easily. They were accomodating of me and treated me like I was one of them. I got the same opportunities as they did in social circles. I could open discuss with them and represent my own culture. I have very fond memories of many Western Caucasian people in my life. My teachers, my school friends, my best friends and my current friends who have all been very embracing of me.

I am not going to generalize of course and say that all Western people are nice and friendly and all Indian people are nasty and rude. I separate people from culture. The way current Indian culture is leads to people being rather nasty and rude(urinating, spitting and excreting in the streets, teasing women on the roads, hassaling foreigners, being rude in general) and the way current Western culture is leads to people being more tolerant, acceptant of differences and living more civically. For example here when we get off the bus we say thank you to the bus driver. In India, you have to get off a moving bus!

Suffice it to say I have met more spiritual people in the West than I have in India. I once joined my local Hindu student community at my uni in hope to find spiritual Indians, and what I got instead was the opposite: highly materialistic Hindus that loved going out in huge groups to various towns for nights of debauchary and visited the temples occasionally to worship idols. I never went back.

Do not take me wrong that I am criticising Indians and Hindus, because I am not. I am criticising culture. As it is culture that humanizes us and a citizen of any country is only as good as their culture is. The British succeeded in destroying the entire fabric of Hindu society 300 years ago, and they supplanted it with a new generation of Indians that rejected their own culture, history and traditions and glorified Western culture. Even today Indians are in high praise of Western culture and capitalism.

Meanwhile, in the West the opposite happened, a section of Western society embraced Hindu culture and this lead to many counter-cultural movements and the ushering in of new-thought. In the West, you find more people critical of capitalism than you do in India, where capitalism is rampant. This is also why you find more progressive and spiritual people in the West. This has definitely been my experience.

[/QUOTE]

I reminded me the book of Richard Dawkins ‘Viruses of the Mind,’ where he argues that culture and language emerge as viruses to colonize mind and to destroy the human being. In relation to SD’s answer, indeed people and culture are different.

The rich Westerners seek for spirituality, practice Yoga, transmit their charitable acts to better the world. And it did not surprise me to hear the account of Indian people from SD, for that parallels to my experience with another society in the world, whose people were once the members of a very high, philosophical culture.

[QUOTE=High Wolf;48382]I reminded me the book of Richard Dawkins ‘Viruses of the Mind,’ where he argues that culture and language emerge as viruses to colonize mind and to destroy the human being. In relation to SD’s answer, indeed people and culture are different.

The rich Westerners seek for spirituality, practice Yoga, transmit their charitable acts to better the world. And it did not surprise me to hear the account of Indian people from SD, for that parallels to my experience with another society in the world, whose people were once the members of a very high, philosophical culture.[/QUOTE

There are some things in life that can never be justified…we have a history of violence as human beings…the Hindu philosophy was/is great but couldn’t be global so other religions formed still holding many of the Hindu philosophies or finding them, themselves…

The West will go along with anything now that improves us as human beings. We have developed sensitive laws to racism, sexism and a whole load of other isms…you cant come here and try these things in a public arenas , they will not be tolerated.

We have correct policing in these matters and much is done to stop and prevent loose dangerous talk and behaviors.

We have a racist political party in Britain…they have spoken their minds, their followers are mostly the poorest in Britain, the ones that think foreigners are taking their housing etc…our news reporters always look for ways to ridicule them and Britain does not take them seriously. To say you support them brings instant shame from your peers…everything is geared against them…

Another example is hand car wash places have cropped up in Britian with foreign people running them. Just down the road from me is an all white car wash place…this man is angry he has competition so he has put a sign up that says…use us, all legal…implying the one up the road is illegally run…
this sign has been complained about and now taken down…but no riot was needed to do this. It was done and accepted because it was wrong…

We keep a close eye on all trouble makers, they end up being extradited or imprisoned…we are trying to find ways of incorporating spirituality into our lives. That is of a new order, we think…We are coming round slowly in realising Hindu principles in this modern world …now if you spent some time thinking of ways to incorporate the Hindu philosophies into a new package that fits with the world we face, you will find the West will go along with it…but not if it is in a present Hindu package, because that will instantly make the Christian and the Muslim and all the others say no! Many westerners have seen the benefits of Yoga and they want to practice it…the openness to this practice is partly because Yoga isn’t called Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism or Christianity. You can be a Christian that practices it…great!!

Be back later go to go to an appointment…

The hatred against Hinduism in the West is institutionalized. You will find it very strongly present in the academic and formal world. Take for example just how you do not learn about India, Indian history and Hinduism at school or in the media. All you ever learn about this part of the world is caste system, wife-burning, cow-worshipping and supersition - all which are stereotypes that typecast Indian civilisation as negative. It is very obvious racism. Why don’t you learn about the 10,000 years of glorious history of the Indian civilisation, its massive contributions in science, philosophy and technology, the hundreds of empires in its history, its status as the most richest country in history and its role in shaping world history? The answer is simple: the elite in the West hate Hinduism. Winston Churchill succiently put it, “I hate Indians, they are a beastly people with a beastly religion”

Hinduism is the ultimate pagan religion and the source of all pagan religions on this planet. This is why the Christian dominated West hates Hinduism. They denigrate its civilisation all the time.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48402]The hatred against Hinduism in the West is institutionalized. You will find it very strongly present in the academic and formal world. Take for example just how you do not learn about India, Indian history and Hinduism at school or in the media. All you ever learn about this part of the world is caste system, wife-burning, cow-worshipping and supersition - all which are stereotypes that typecast Indian civilisation as negative. It is very obvious racism. Why don’t you learn about the 10,000 years of glorious history of the Indian civilisation, its massive contributions in science, philosophy and technology, the hundreds of empires in its history, its status as the most richest country in history and its role in shaping world history? The answer is simple: the elite in the West hate Hinduism. Winston Churchill succiently put it, “I hate Indians, they are a beastly people with a beastly religion”

Hinduism is the ultimate pagan religion and the source of all pagan religions on this planet. This is why the Christian dominated West hates Hinduism. They denigrate its civilisation all the time.[/QUOTE]

This was precisely my point.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48350]Nietzsche, you and I both are highly critical of Western culture, history and ideology. I am however not critical of Western people. I separate people from concepts. In fact, as ironic as this may sound to you, most of my friends are Western. I enjoy the company of Western people more than I enjoy the company of Indian people. In my experience, finding good Indians really has been like finding a diamond among a sea of sand. Most Indians I have met have been highly materialsitic, greedy and debauched and generally not nice people. I spend 6 months in India studying at an Indian institute, and I was appaled at the behaviour of my Indian peers. Most of the Indian women smoked(even in the West most Western women do not smoke) Most of the Indian men spoke in highly explicit and vulgar language and were rude to the extreme. I faced so many problems by Indians gossiping about me and spreading rumours for little to no reason. In fact I was not the only one, but it was a common practice amongst my Indian peers to gossip about one another and spread malicious gossip. Even back here in the UK, the Indian people I met were not very nice. My experiences growing up with the Indian community were plagued with incidents.

On the contrary, my experiences with Western people were largely positive. I made friends with them much more easily. They were accomodating of me and treated me like I was one of them. I got the same opportunities as they did in social circles. I could open discuss with them and represent my own culture. I have very fond memories of many Western Caucasian people in my life. My teachers, my school friends, my best friends and my current friends who have all been very embracing of me.

I am not going to generalize of course and say that all Western people are nice and friendly and all Indian people are nasty and rude. I separate people from culture. The way current Indian culture is leads to people being rather nasty and rude(urinating, spitting and excreting in the streets, teasing women on the roads, hassaling foreigners, being rude in general) and the way current Western culture is leads to people being more tolerant, acceptant of differences and living more civically. For example here when we get off the bus we say thank you to the bus driver. In India, you have to get off a moving bus!

Suffice it to say I have met more spiritual people in the West than I have in India. I once joined my local Hindu student community at my uni in hope to find spiritual Indians, and what I got instead was the opposite: highly materialistic Hindus that loved going out in huge groups to various towns for nights of debauchary and visited the temples occasionally to worship idols. I never went back.

Do not take me wrong that I am criticising Indians and Hindus, because I am not. I am criticising culture. As it is culture that humanizes us and a citizen of any country is only as good as their culture is. The British succeeded in destroying the entire fabric of Hindu society 300 years ago, and they supplanted it with a new generation of Indians that rejected their own culture, history and traditions and glorified Western culture. Even today Indians are in high praise of Western culture and capitalism.

Meanwhile, in the West the opposite happened, a section of Western society embraced Hindu culture and this lead to many counter-cultural movements and the ushering in of new-thought. In the West, you find more people critical of capitalism than you do in India, where capitalism is rampant. This is also why you find more progressive and spiritual people in the West. This has definitely been my experience.

So what does this all mean? It means that India is no longer the centre of the world and nor is it the centre of spirituality. Even Hindus gurus are moving into the West, because they often find that it is in the West that they find more sincere seekers. Therefore we must accept the fact of today that Hinduism is no longer just the property of India, but it has become the property of the new globalized world. In the new globalized world there is no particular centre anymore. The idea of nation-states will become defunct this century. The world is now becoming more like the ancient Vedic ideal: a global family.

We must abandon all kinds of nationalistic philosophies and think more globally. Currently, the globalized world that we are living in is largely a Westernized world, but it need not be Westernized. It can also be Indianized. This is why I predict that in the future a clash of civilisations will take place: India vs the West; Dharmic vs Abrahamic. Hindus need to push for a Vedic world in rational public spheres. They need to take over the academic world and once again become the teachers for the world. Similarly, spiritual people from other traditions like gnosticism and the new-age need to also push for a Vedic world, realising that Hinduism is their common denominator. Rather than seeing themselves as separate parallel traditions, they need to realise they are actually part of the same Vedic heritage.

The Vedic religion is said to be eternal and therefore it is not the particular religion of any locale or period. It may well have developed in India, but it is not limited to India. It is the religion of all of humanity.[/QUOTE]

Interesting experiences. I know how you feel.

As for Western Caucasian friends, I have undergone the exact opposite treatment. Not a day has gone without my skin color being scorned or Hinduism being misrepresented. Not a day has gone without me hearing idiotic Christian and Western supremacist dogma. Although most of my friends are Westerners, they have no interest in religion and philosophy but rather Math and Science. And although I share their love of math and science, I have never been able to express my thoughts on religion and philosophy to anyone. Perhaps thats just America for you…

Too true…this is why much work needs to be done to repudiate the negative aspects of this Western influence.

Globalized Hinduism? Hopefully. For that to happen however, Abrahamic religions, and its negative influences, have to go.

We must first work at a national level if we ever hope that Hinduism will be globally accepted as a viable path for anyone to take. That is just how perceptions work. When people think Hinduism, they will associate with India. And what will they see when they look at India? You know the answer as well as I Surya. Much change has to occur to bring India (and every other country of the world) on a materially even footing with the West. Only then can the world begin to entertain notions of mix and match, accept and discard. But I doubt that, since the greedy West is intent on maintaining their status.

Additionally, I highly doubt that the day people will find common ground will occur. There are just too many defined distinctions between the peoples of the Earth. Skin color, ethnicities, traditions and cultures, and so forth. You underestimate the ties that people have to these things.

I agree with this. However, it must first me brought to bear within India, as it once was millennia ago, before it can truly become a global religion.

[QUOTE=thomas;48362]Most Westerners don’t have a clue about Hinduism, and don’t know enough about it to hate it.[/QUOTE]

Oh but they DO. Refer back to my “preconceived perceptions” post back in the “Is Yoga Hinduism” thread.

And they certainly do “know” enough to scorn it like they scorn Scientology. “Stupid dark skinned Indians, worshiping stones and mutated gods, ringing bells, drinking cow urine and dirty water…”

This is what my father called a chip on your shoulder and not a good thing to carry around with you…it’s always best to repair it with right thinking…

[QUOTE=kareng;48434]This is what my father called a chip on your shoulder and not a good thing to carry around with you…it’s always best to repair it with right thinking…[/QUOTE]

Yes. Most Westerners should repair the chip of Western dogma and ignorance and not carry it around with them in politics and academia…but it’s always best to repair it right thinking you know.

A chip shows a lack of human understanding and an inner insecurity

[QUOTE=kareng;48457]A chip shows a lack of human understanding and an inner insecurity[/QUOTE]

Yeah. Fits Western dogma and ignorance nicely, doesn’t it?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;47439]To what extent does religious/media/political/philosophical bias interfere in the process of examining facts and examining sound arguments based on facts?

I believe there is a tendency amongst those with implicit and explit biasses to distort facts and deny facts. I have seen this especially with so-called skeptics who deny parapsychological research into such things like paranormal abilities, OBES, NDE’s, reincarnation, and materialists who deny quantum mechanics and idealism, and Christians who deny any wrong things in their religion, even something as blatant as inquisitions, witch-trials and the injunctions for genocide, murder and rape in the OT.

If we lived in a perfect world where everything was driven by facts I don’t think we would be even in half of the problems we are in today.

Is the truth a choice?[/QUOTE]

I’m glad your finally giving facts a go. Good luck with that.

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;48763]I’m glad your finally giving facts a go. Good luck with that.[/QUOTE]

You’re too much of an fool to discriminate facts from lies.