Facing facts

[QUOTE=High Wolf;48087]Yep, you have a point. Yet also, as it has been explained tens of times, that it was the British that robbed India and fueled its own country’s economy. It was the British that sympathized the Islamic involvement into India. It is corrupt because Indian people’s loose cultural thread allows this to flourish now. India is as corrupt as many developing countries, and Britain, now at the verge of an economic collapse, facing its karma, so to speak.

Facing the facts: what happened that we have replaced 40,000 years old shamanic practices with nearly 2000-3000 year old, this ill-omened, crippled Abrahamic ideology? [B]And become faith-worhsippers in symbolic realities instead of [I]experiencing[/I] the world in the existing order of the world?[/B] Could any one of you answer this question?

What are the roots of Abrahamic religions? No mystic talk, no cross-reference, no Sumerian alien theories and such: explain it if you can with logic and evidence.[/QUOTE]

Oh my God. I…I…I can’t believe it…I have never heard such sense on this forum from someone besides SD and I…your words are like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97xlBipnzG8. I don’t know if you’re into classical music or not but you cannot deny it is a beautiful song…very much like your words…

What are the roots of Abrahamic religions? No mystic talk, no cross-reference, no Sumerian alien theories and such: explain it if you can with logic and evidence.

I’m not qualified to answer this, but can answer that the roots of Christianity have a definate time and place they began and historical evidence for many of the claims. It is not “blind faith” like believing in reincarnation is.

And I’m getting very tired of the “Abrahamic religions” being presented as if they are one faith, when they indeed are not.

[QUOTE=thomas;48100]I’m not qualified to answer this, but can answer that the roots of Christianity have a definate time and place they began and historical evidence for many of the claims. It is not “blind faith” like believing in reincarnation is.

And I’m getting very tired of the “Abrahamic religions” being presented as if they are one faith, when they indeed are not.[/QUOTE]

We can dispute your “historical evidence.”

And believing in Jesus, a man supposedly born from a [B]virgin[/B], and a man for which there is a laughable paucity of evidence can also be considered blind faith. Same goes for believing in an angry desert god who sends people to hell for not believing in him/her.

And you are right. The term “Abrahamic religions” in and of itself is not a designation for a faith. It is a term for a group of faiths that very similar to one another.

They are not “very similar” to each other.

There is no savior in Islam. There is no Baptism. There is no Holy Eucharist.

And why be so insulting in your tone and use words like “laughable,” especially when we have the Gospels, and we have the secular records which mention Jesus and mention his early followers.

[QUOTE=thomas;48106]They are not “very similar” to each other.

There is no savior in Islam. There is no Baptism. There is no Holy Eucharist.

And why be so insulting in your tone and use words like “laughable,” especially when we have the Gospels, and we have the secular records which mention Jesus and mention his early followers.[/QUOTE]

So?

They definitely have the same mythological backgrounds, both believe in the same god, the same prophets, similar verses regarding creation/commandments/etc, and what not.

The Gospel is not historical evidence. It is part of a religious scripture and therefore subject to much historical flaws, misinterpretation, bias, alterations, and etc. Last time people took the Bible seriously and took its historicity seriously…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI9ImScQGAo&feature=related

Secular evidence? Debatable Thomas, debatable.

Oh forgive me for my tone. It was late at night and I was tearing my eyes out trying to draw this thing…

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;48115]So?

They definitely have the same mythological backgrounds, both believe in the same god, the same prophets, similar verses regarding creation/commandments/etc, and what not.

The Gospel is not historical evidence. It is part of a religious scripture and therefore subject to much historical flaws, misinterpretation, bias, alterations, and etc. Last time people took the Bible seriously and took its historicity seriously…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI9ImScQGAo&feature=related

Secular evidence? Debatable Thomas, debatable.

Oh forgive me for my tone. It was late at night and I was tearing my eyes out trying to draw this thing…[/QUOTE]

Religious scripture …that applies to Hinduism as well…the proof of the pudding is in the tasting…,have you tasted the pudding ?

[QUOTE=High Wolf;48087]Yep, you have a point. Yet also, as it has been explained tens of times, that it was the British that robbed India and fueled its own country’s economy. It was the British that sympathized the Islamic involvement into India. It is corrupt because Indian people’s loose cultural thread allows this to flourish now. India is as corrupt as many developing countries, and Britain, now at the verge of an economic collapse, facing its karma, so to speak.

Facing the facts: what happened that we have replaced 40,000 years old shamanic practices with nearly 2000-3000 year old, this ill-omened, crippled Abrahamic ideology? And become faith-worhsippers in symbolic realities instead of [I]experiencing[/I] the world in the existing order of the world? Could any one of you answer this question?

What are the roots of Abrahamic religions? No mystic talk, no cross-reference, no Sumerian alien theories and such: explain it if you can with logic and evidence.[/QUOTE]

All you wise Indians are failing to understand some basics. The divine is not exclusive to one continent or even region…due to geographical distances and lack of communication other religions evolved. They are all carrying the same message to self realisation. To dismiss them as nonsense is just ignorance.

The question is which parts of which ones have the best methods/techniques…thats the question…

There is a technique in Buddhism which removes an unwanted thought. This is a very useful tool. I use it when i feel i have to…

All you do is …as the thought arises, repeat …Ami Tabba Buddha…6 times…it works…try it…now the fact is the word can be different, you can say whatever you want in the same manner and that will work too…but the point is it works So am I a fool for adopting this technique?

Everyone clings to their faith as being the one, the one and only…

[QUOTE=kareng;48139]All you wise Indians are failing to understand some basics. The divine is not exclusive to one continent or even region…due to geographical distances and lack of communication other religions evolved. They are all carrying the same message to self realisation. To dismiss them as nonsense is just ignorance.

The question is which parts of which ones have the best methods/techniques…thats the question…

There is a technique in Buddhism which removes an unwanted thought. This is a very useful tool. I use it when i feel i have to…

All you do is …as the thought arises, repeat …Ami Tabba Buddha…6 times…it works…try it…now the fact is the word can be different, you can say whatever you want in the same manner and that will work too…but the point is it works So am I a fool for adopting this technique?

Everyone clings to their faith as being the one, the one and only…[/QUOTE]

Nope I am Greek-born, not Indian. :wink:

Yes, I will try the Buddhist mantra.

Nope, not every method is equal to one another. Yes, the path to enlightenment differs in each person, and the destination is the same; each one of us lights their own candle to create one light. Yet do not align yourself with naively universalistic conceits. No religion is same to another. Some employ higher values that appreciate human quality, some do lower and favouring human quantity. Dharmic religions are of quality, and Abrahamic religions are of quantity. Thus it is no surprise that indisutrialism is the extension of Lutheran and Calvinist work ethics, whose origins came from Jewish culture (see Nietzsche’s [I]Genealogy of Morals[/I]). These ethics, as it seems, are also in perfect alignment with Islam, for it is the original successor of Judaism.

[QUOTE=thomas;48106]They are not “very similar” to each other.

There is no savior in Islam. There is no Baptism. There is no Holy Eucharist.

And why be so insulting in your tone and use words like “laughable,” especially when we have the Gospels, and we have the secular records which mention Jesus and mention his early followers.[/QUOTE]

Your point is taken. You do not want to associate Christianity’s humanistic values with rather explicit oppressiveness and obtuseness of Islam. That is fine. But also look at the history of England, France and Germany and see how many people were tormented to death, with their limbs, and other organs cut - it was as Foucault once explained, to demonstrate the power of the sovereign, the king, the emperor etc. who got his alleged right by the Christian God! Tell me then, is [I]this god[/I] that different from islamic god allah, and jewish god elohim?

These three religions, whether looking decent or not, are altogether evil in their foundations! And their time is done. They are obtuse, outdated, and purely based on conceptual epistemologies, have [I]no relation to human experience of the world in the existing order of the world[/I] whatsoever!

And they do warmongering! Look how neo-conservative Europe is becoming nowadays. France and Germany going all out Christian (so-called) democrats, declaring war to the muslim world, hence in their own way, threatening the secular values of European Union!

If the cancer spreads to the whole organ, logically, you are supposed to get rid of the whole organ! Period!! The rest is wishful thinking and hope worshipping.

You wanna keep your mysticism? Fine, do so, which is a noble path, but do so in accordance with scientific evidence, for the age of our world demands it!

Let the spirit be on its own, away from dogmas, away from misjudgements…away from anything else except from your true self!

[QUOTE=High Wolf;48159]Your point is taken. You do not want to associate Christianity’s humanistic values with rather explicit oppressiveness and obtuseness of Islam. That is fine. But also look at the history of England, France and Germany and see how many people were tormented to death, with their limbs, and other organs cut - it was as Foucault once explained, to demonstrate the power of the sovereign, the king, the emperor etc. who got his alleged right by the Christian God! Tell me then, is [I]this god[/I] that different from islamic god allah, and jewish god elohim?

These three religions, whether looking decent or not, are altogether evil in their foundations! And their time is done. They are obtuse, outdated, and purely based on conceptual epistemologies, have [I]no relation to human experience of the world in the existing order of the world[/I] whatsoever!

And they do warmongering! Look how neo-conservative Europe is becoming nowadays. France and Germany going all out Christian (so-called) democrats, declaring war to the muslim world, hence in their own way, threatening the secular values of European Union!

If the cancer spreads to the whole organ, logically, you are supposed to get rid of the whole organ! Period!! The rest is wishful thinking and hope worshipping.

You wanna keep your mysticism? Fine, do so, which is a noble path, but do so in accordance with scientific evidence, for the age of our world demands it!

Let the spirit be on its own, away from dogmas, away from misjudgements…away from anything else except from your true self![/QUOTE]

I am in awe High Wolf…in awe of your wisdom, common sense, and lack of political correctness. I bow down to you.

[QUOTE=kareng;48139]All you wise Indians are failing to understand some basics. The divine is not exclusive to one continent or even region…due to geographical distances and lack of communication other religions evolved. They are all carrying the same message to self realisation. To dismiss them as nonsense is just ignorance.

The question is which parts of which ones have the best methods/techniques…thats the question…

There is a technique in Buddhism which removes an unwanted thought. This is a very useful tool. I use it when i feel i have to…

All you do is …as the thought arises, repeat …Ami Tabba Buddha…6 times…it works…try it…now the fact is the word can be different, you can say whatever you want in the same manner and that will work too…but the point is it works So am I a fool for adopting this technique?

Everyone clings to their faith as being the one, the one and only…[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily the divine. The notions such groups ascribe to the divine are a different matter, in terms of superiority and inferiority.

Nope. Some have less efficient ways, some have no way whatsoever, some have the easier way…

Uhm, I really have no idea what you are trying to say. Speak plainly and not like your head is in some artificially induced elevated state of consciousness.

[QUOTE=kareng;48137]Religious scripture …that applies to Hinduism as well…the proof of the pudding is in the tasting…,have you tasted the pudding ?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have. And some religious scriptures, or written works on certain legends and myths, have more historical basis than others. Like the Chinese and Indian manuscripts/scriptures.

I have a good friend of mine who, though not Christian, is very much grounded in the Western esoteric tradition and does not share my disdain for the Abrahamic religion, though he agrees that the Abrahamic religions do contain objectionable parts and the dharmic religions contain very enlightened teachings. His viewpoint is that the bible is purely a symbolic text which can only be read “Kabbalistically” The stories of Moses ordering the slaughter of 32,000 men little children and their mothers and the rape of 32,000 young girls is symbolic of something else - it is not a literal event - but some kind of coded description with great spiritual significance that only a kabbalist would understand.

He is not the only friend I have who is strongly grounded in Western esoterica, in fact many of my friends are. They all have great respect for Hinduism, and I equally respect their esoteric traditions for being more enlightened traditions. However, what I do not respect is their speculative and spurious readings of Abrahamic literature to extract teachings like reincarnation, Yoga, karma etc from these texts. Why this obsession in extracting dharmic teachings from Abrahamic texts, where they are not present?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48184]I have a good friend of mine who, though not Christian, is very much grounded in the Western esoteric tradition and does not share my disdain for the Abrahamic religion, though he agrees that the Abrahamic religions do contain objectionable parts and the dharmic religions contain very enlightened teachings. His viewpoint is that the bible is purely a symbolic text which can only be read “Kabbalistically” The stories of Moses ordering the slaughter of 32,000 men little children and their mothers and the rape of 32,000 young girls is symbolic of something else - it is not a literal event - but some kind of coded description with great spiritual significance that only a kabbalist would understand.

He is not the only friend I have who is strongly grounded in Western esoterica, in fact many of my friends are. They all have great respect for Hinduism, and I equally respect their esoteric traditions for being more enlightened traditions. However, what I do not respect is their speculative and spurious readings of Abrahamic literature to extract teachings like reincarnation, Yoga, karma etc from these texts. Why this obsession in extracting dharmic teachings from Abrahamic texts, where they are not present?[/QUOTE]

As I said before, most Westerners secretly hate Hinduism for its great philosophies and teachings. So they want to undermine it, since they can’t stand the fact that “shit colored, cow piss drinkers” could create something as profound as Yoga, etc. Eventually, they will dilute and adulterate our teachings so much such that they can play the semantics game and claim Yoga as a Western, not Indian, tradition.

I do not believe in the case of my friends Neitzsche that is motivated by a secret hate for Hinduism, but rather it is motivated by a sense of loyalty for their own traditions, such as their esotric traditions like Kabbalh, Sufism, Neo-platonism and recently Wicca and Golden Dawn. At the most they are aiming for a parallel tradition that equals that of the eastern(Hindu) tradition.

In any case I do deny that such a parallel tradition exists. These are not traditions per se but just romantic interpretations of older Western traditions.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48188]I do not believe in the case of my friends Neitzsche that is motivated by a secret hate for Hinduism, but rather it is motivated by a sense of loyalty for their own traditions, such as their esotric traditions like Kabbalh, Sufism, Neo-platonism and recently Wicca and Golden Dawn. At the most they are aiming for a parallel tradition that equals that of the eastern(Hindu) tradition.

In any case I do deny that such a parallel tradition exists. These are not traditions per se but just romantic interpretations of older Western traditions.[/QUOTE]

Well, perhaps I should have used better words, like “jealous” and “cultural chauvinism.”

No, again I think the intention is more benevolent. In this case there is a genuine need to bring human cultures together and make Yogic like knowledge seem like the common property of mankind. Hence the need to find parallels of Yogic like knowledge in the Western tradition.

I respect the intentions, but like I said do not agree such a parallel tradition existed in the West. It did not exist because it was never allowed to flourish in the West. The gnostics were persecuted, and in order to survive they had to exist as a sect within Abrahamic religions, but even then they had to go underground.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48190]No, again I think the intention is more benevolent. In this case there is a genuine need to bring human cultures together and make Yogic like knowledge seem like the common property of mankind. Hence the need to find parallels of Yogic like knowledge in the Western tradition.

I respect the intentions, but like I said do not agree such a parallel tradition existed in the West. It did not exist because it was never allowed to flourish in the West. The gnostics were persecuted, and in order to survive they had to exist as a sect within Abrahamic religions, but even then they had to go underground.[/QUOTE]

Oh no. I assure you the intent, deep down, is far more sinister. The West, and Westerners in general, has no intent of ever bringing cultures together on an EQUAL basis and on even footing. They want to strip the cultures of their positive aspects, assimilate them into Western culture to a point where one ascribes it all to the West (as has always happened), and in the end, retain their superiority.

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;48329]Oh no. I assure you the intent, deep down, is far more sinister. The West, and Westerners in general, has no intent of ever bringing cultures together on an EQUAL basis and on even footing. They want to strip the cultures of their positive aspects, assimilate them into Western culture to a point where one ascribes it all to the West (as has always happened), and in the end, retain their superiority.[/QUOTE]

:lol:

There are few things we disagree on Neitzsche, but this is one of them. You cannot generalise all the West and Westerners into one group and attribute to them the same intention. You are a critical thinker, and such sweeping generalizations do not behove you.

I have several Western friends who respect, admire and adore Hinduism, India, Indian history. Several Western intellectuals have opined similarly. In the case of some of my friends, such as my Gnostic friends. They are very spiritual people. The one I mentioned has in his home a statue of a Buddha, a picture of the virgin mary, the Ek onkar symbol, a crucifix and owns a copy of the bible and the koran. He is strongly affiliated to the gnostic tradition, that believe all religions contain an element of truth. He is equally at home in reading the Gita as he is in reading the bible. I have known for him 2 years now and he is one of the most lovely people you could meet. There is nothing sinister about him or his intentions.

There are genuine and valid spiritual traditions in the West as well such as Gnosticism, which is an ancient tradition going back to Plato, which have recently been allowed to flourish in the West due to the introduction of Yoga. They have their own meditation traditions and a long history of adepts.

You should not tar all Westerners with the same brush, my friend. I have a great respect and love for many Western people I have met in my life, who ironically enough are just as critical of Western culture as we are and are looking forward to a more spiritual time.

There are few things we disagree on Neitzsche, but this is one of them. You cannot generalise all the West and Westerners into one group and attribute to them the same intention. You are a critical thinker, and such sweeping generalizations do not behove you.

I have several Western friends who respect, admire and adore Hinduism, India, Indian history. Several Western intellectuals have opined similarly. In the case of some of my friends, such as my Gnostic friends. They are very spiritual people. The one I mentioned has in his home a statue of a Buddha, a picture of the virgin mary, the Ek onkar symbol, a crucifix and owns a copy of the bible and the koran. He is strongly affiliated to the gnostic tradition, that believe all religions contain an element of truth. He is equally at home in reading the Gita as he is in reading the bible. I have known for him 2 years now and he is one of the most lovely people you could meet. There is nothing sinister about him or his intentions.

There are genuine and valid spiritual traditions in the West as well such as Gnosticism, which is an ancient tradition going back to Plato, which have recently been allowed to flourish in the West due to the introduction of Yoga. They have their own meditation traditions and a long history of adepts.

You should not tar all Westerners with the same brush, my friend. I have a great respect and love for many Western people I have met in my life, who ironically enough are just as critical of Western culture as we are and are looking forward to a more spiritual time.[/QUOTE]

When I said “in general,” I meant “as an aggregate.” Finding those kinds of Westerners is akin to finding diamonds among a sea of sand. They are there, but, unfortunately, quiet hard to come across by. I have even mentioned this quiet a few times in my other posts. And besides, look at High Wolf. He is a Westerner and I respect him very much. I have even bowed down to him and compared his words to the song, Vitali Chaconne (at least, as played by Heifetz :D). And look at my forum name.

The cultural (even intellectual) subversion I speak of has happened for much of the history of the West. They have “burrowed” the ideas of other civilizations and look what happened. There are hardly any ideas, developments, and advancements you can definitely identify as having originated in another civilization. This is especially the case in the subjects of mathematics and science.

And the same is happening with Yoga. Sure, I will admit that most practice it for spiritual and physical benefits. However, those that do are unwittingly aiding the process of cultural theft by practicing it superficially (in addition to still maintaining and spreading Westernized anti-Hindu/Indian biases). This liberalization of Yoga will, in the future, cause it to be absorbed into the fabric of the West. And what will happen then? At that point, classical Western chauvinism will kick in, causing Westerners to essentially repudiate its Hindu roots, through intellectual dogmatism. Sure the historical credit will be there. But in Western academia, descriptions of Yoga will eventually come to say, “Although Yoga originated in India, Caucasians aggrandized its prevalence, causing its teachings to develop to its current levels of import” (or something to that effect). And the acrimonious actions presently being undertaken by asinine Christians and Muslims are not helping that trend.

Additionally, the current situation of the Western world is even more cause for worry. Economies are failing. Anti-Islamic sentiment is increasing. Nationalist, religious, and cultural pride is kicking in, plunging the countries in question ever deeper into the abyss of ignorance and cultural insularity.