Fantasy-dominated art/spirituality isnt bad nor good, its a necessity for change

First this post started as a question (How evil is marketing), but after some review, I already could put things more in perspective…this thread is more of a observation-thread now :slight_smile:

Also I came up with an interesting way to look at things from a gunas-perspective.
In a way one could create a relationship between vikalpa(fantasy) & followers, and rajas(activity) & marketing.

[B]DISCLAIMER[/B]: I’m not a marketeer in any way, but I think, in the end, everybody is a marketeer of ideas :slight_smile:
[B]WARNING[/B]: enthousiasm and a text written by a non-english speaker can be found below :slight_smile:

There’s no such thing as ‘evil’ marketing

I guess we all agree that marketing moves good and bad ideas forward, even when they are marketed in a way which promotes incorrect knowledge, or is shadowsupported by bad intentions.
(Example: in theory it could be possible to become advanced in yoga, while being introduced to yoga by reading a yoga-flyer from a yogastudio which was purely a cashcow of businessmen who’ve never practiced yoga at all).

In personal observations of ‘my reality’, I’ve discovered (and am still discovering) that I’ve lived with lots of incorrect knowledge, like most of us, mostly powered by fantasy, marketed by society and parents.
This circus already starts from childhood: we are attacked by ideas, and after developing a shield for this, we have to clean up the mess of your past distorted perceptions.

Unfortunately almost nobody receives Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra’s at an early age, to get a realistic view on reality/fantasy and knowledge.

I also discovered a shadowmarket in the art-scene, its very unlikely to find out new art without a market.
My quest in the art-scene is in parallel with Surya Deva’s thread “[I]Commercialization of Yoga: Misleading and false promises[/I]”.

Commercialization of Arts

Every artist, for example, will soon or later find out that there is no such thing as an “artist” vs “normal person”, “being special” vs “being unspecial”, or “creative people” vs “people with dayjobs”, even though artists were always presented like that ([I]“Mozart was a genious, now THAT’s an artist!”[/I]).

My personal experience is, that within artscenes this ideoligy is promoted severely. It is trying to promote the idea of artists being special individuals (backed up by enthousiast followers who support this illusion). Then art, can be seen as a religions with gurus as well: it is an unspoken agreement to feed a shared illusion/seperation between sender/receiver, just like between some gurus and seekers.

However, when the trends change, the artist needs to change his art as well, because else they will lose followers. These days, with the saturation of markets, many followers will then drop their guru (“2 years ago he was doing amazing stuff…now Im not really impressed anymore”), and focus on new material from another guru.

If one really makes effort to find out how deep this rabbit-hole is, it always ends up with the phenomenon called “market”, no matter how creative or special you are.

I’ve seen this in other fields as well, everything which contains fantasy, receives shadowsupport from a market. In saturated markets there will always be false prophets which try to gain followers by spreading stories of how you can become succesfull like them (which is based on incorrect knowledge, or a flawn, overdone, outdated moment in history).

[INDENT][B]Example[/B]: You never hear a artist talk about marketing in interviews, while with many artists that topic occupies 90% of their thoughts & conversations with their team. They will not tell “[I]Well, first of all, I would like to tell everybody that the reason I do this interview, is because my marketingstaff set me up for this, because they negiotated that I could promote my website, so I can continue this lifestyle, which has nothing to do with the art what I started back in the days[/I]”. Instead you will hear a romantic story which makes kids run to the shops and buy an album and a new guitar etc :slight_smile:
If an artist gets too attached to his lifestyle, soon or later he has to give up his art.
The artists knows it, the team knows it, yet it is often a taboo.
[/INDENT]

This raises the question: [B]Is marketing inevitable?[/B]
My current view of putting things in perspective:

Vikalpa(fantasy) and followers

[B]Example[/B]:

If I’m an artist, I want to have an macbook pro, because apple is for creative people.
When I have great experiences, I will recommend everybody that they should buy apple stuff, because this would re-confirm my decision of the past.

In my opinion, when people accept a certain fantasy and become consumers, they agree with a powerstructure which demands authority over them.
They accept those particular gunas as absolute truth for the time being, while not being able to see the composition.
If the person does not review this agreement at a later point in time (“Hey I’m not only an artist, Im also an scientist and a father…why should I recommend apple to everybody!”), he is prone to become close-minded blinded followship.

Gunas, Rajas=marketing, Tamas=product

[B]Rajas[/B]: Moves/Exploits Tamas. When there is no marketing, nothing moves. You gain more interest by people with a good story which gives away a fantasy, then just cold facts of a product.

[B]Tamas[/B]: solid product/service. If you can share something which other people can touch/hear/see/feel or do, it will do nothing by itself, it will just sit somewhere (on somebody’s harddrive, or an empty yoga studio).

[B]Sattva[/B]: defines a balance between Rajas & Tamas, the doorway to make the idea of exploiter and productmaker accessible for other humans. Tamas is their tool, and their future desire is to become that Rajas in the future.

Conclusion

Fantasy isnt bad nor good, its a necessity to move forward.
The interesting thing I think is, that people can be attracted (rajas) by fantasies, which enable them to see themselves see the fantasy, see the factual (tamas), which breaks the agreement between themselves and the fantasy (rajas, tamas, sattva becomes visible), so they can move on focusing on demystifying remaining fantasies.
Therefore, there is no such thing as indulging in fantasy (vikalpa) which could lead to incorrect knowledge. Because the fantasy (usually) will always lead the person to correct knowledge soon or later (as described above).

Well thought out and written.

It seems clarity is simply seeing the false as false; identifying illusions of the imagined, realizing concepts as temporary and awareness as permanent, is not this awareness found in suppression as well as indulgence.

In the world fantasy takes us further, dreaming of a house , a partner, a son etc. Setting up goals living for the future and brooding about the past. For what did not go well.

Making fantasies belongs to the mind and takes us away from being present in the now.

In yoga fantasies should be less, and if possible not at all.

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;82044]In the world fantasy takes us further, dreaming of a house , a partner, a son etc. Setting up goals living for the future and brooding about the past. For what did not go well.

Making fantasies belongs to the mind and takes us away from being present in the now.

In yoga fantasies should be less, and if possible not at all.[/QUOTE]

Who is being present in the now? Whoops there it went…:o Oh here I am whoops there I went who is this I that is here has went and has yet to arrive? Methinks time and linear perception is a fantasy so is being present in the now which clearly cannot exist as it is impermanent in the extreme.

In fact one might more rightly say only the past is real since we can record it as it occurs but only after the fact not during.

Your always in the present. In memory and fantasy.
Your “sense” of time is what you refer to when you say "be in the now.

Avatar if you day dreaming and i call your name you will miss it as your consciousness is somewhere else, then your not where your body is if you refer the body as being present but we are not our bodies.Being in the now does not refer to time it means do not let your mind control you as the mind loves to brood on the past and setting plans for the future instead of being consciousness that is our true nature.

Seeking. Anyone can be present in the now for a short time, its like meditation it takes lots of practice to extend the time being able to do so. But anyone can do it. Even you so dont limit your self. When we concentrate on a task we are present are we not?

So be conscious when you start to making mental movies and stop it. Good luck.

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;82072]Avatar if you day dreaming and i call your name you will miss it as your consciousness is somewhere else, then your not where your body is if you refer the body as being present but we are not our bodies.Being in the now does not refer to time it means do not let your mind control you as the mind loves to brood on the past and setting plans for the future instead of being consciousness that is our true nature.

Seeking. Anyone can be present in the now for a short time, its like meditation it takes lots of practice to extend the time being able to do so. But anyone can do it. Even you so dont limit your self. When we concentrate on a task we are present are we not?

So be conscious when you start to making mental movies and stop it. Good luck.[/QUOTE]

Fake you have no direct experience and are just parroting others your imagination respects will you ever quite misbehaving?


y…a practice makes a man h, w & w.

Actually now you are the one misbehaving. But i guess your not aware of it.

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;82085]Actually now you are the one misbehaving. But i guess your not aware of it.[/QUOTE]

Someday you are going to mature and quite attacking others and seeking verbal combat on internet forums. Until then there will be no further communication with you so go ahead and get it out of your system and let me have it with your final word, I will forgive that too but do not expect further communication.

My apologies to SQZ for what has became a derailment of the original topic.

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;82032]It seems clarity is simply seeing the false as false; identifying illusions of the imagined, realizing concepts as temporary and awareness as permanent, is not this awareness found in suppression as well as indulgence.[/QUOTE]

Question being respectfully submitted:

The answer all hinges on wither awareness itself is actually permanent. Is it? For example when in a deep sleep where is awareness? Does this not indicate Awareness itself fluctuates?

I guess your talking about your self, i never attacked you, you started to attack me. Ive read some of your threads and what you jumped me for you are doing your self. Its easy to see the speck in your brothers eye but not the lodge in your own. And also you behave immature when you say there will be no further communication with me. And you call me immature. Now you attacked me twice for what you your self did and said against me.

If you feel ive attacked you its just your ego trying to preserving it self. I never did attack you but you did twice. The thread shows it look your self. I have no hard feelings towards you and when you feel you want to speak further im there for you, im not closing any doors. Good luck.

I understand what you imply but we dont read from down to up so…

But thanks for your information anyway it will be useful for me. Even though in some cases its not like that in the part of defending.

[QUOTE=Seeking;82088]Question being respectfully submitted:

The answer all hinges on wither awareness itself is actually permanent. Is it? For example when in a deep sleep where is awareness? Does this not indicate Awareness itself fluctuates?[/QUOTE]

Respectfully or disrespectfully, all is merely a dance in consciousness everything/nothing is to be confirmed by one’s self.

Can any level of consciousness exist without awareness, is consciousness possible without awareness. Examine the three cities of the mind; Waking, dreaming and deep sleep were the awareness in waking and dreaming are self-apparent due to the large percentage of memory accessible, but do you recall every second of yesterday or perhaps there are gaps? When you awaken from deep sleep you sense restfulness, does not the alarm wake you, is there a difference between thinking I was deeply asleep and thinking I was not there, the blankness of deep sleep may be due to insufficient memory, it cannot be said awareness was not present. It seems awareness exists without consciousness but consciousness cannot exist without awareness, furthermore can awareness be aware of itself.

The automic nervouse system is aware.
Is it aware of itself?

An ant to a tree has awareness.

What is consciousness but a level of awareness?

And yes. Self consciousness or self awareness. To say their is sight, to identify with the see’er, and know the see’er is the one who see’s. OR in other words: seeing that the see’er is the one who see’s. That is self consciousness.

[QUOTE=Avatar186;82134]The automic nervouse system is aware.
Is it aware of itself?

An ant to a tree has awareness.

What is consciousness but a level of awareness?

And yes. Self consciousness or self awareness. To say their is sight, to identify with the see’er, and know the see’er is the one who see’s. OR in other words: seeing that the see’er is the one who see’s. That is self consciousness.[/QUOTE]

Is not pure awareness what you were prior to consciousness arising, consciousness being everything this side of the I-AM-NESS, were you aware before this happening in consciousness and will you be aware when it expires.

simply contemplating the awareness.
What is pure awareness? Lol can it ever be impure?
Divided yes. United yes.

If I took a crack at "what is pure awareness"
I would say it is an "enlightened being"
one, in who exists, no unconsciousness.
a being with continual consciousness.
He who would have continual consciousness would be sleepless with perfect memory.

I do believe awareness and consciousness are the same thing. It simply takes a certain level of awareness to be self aware. A tree has awareness. Enough awareness to be self aware? I don’t know.

Even if not sleepless, during sleep, their would be self awareness.

by definition awareness and consciousness are dependent on each other to exist or for that matter even have meaning.

awareness
noun
the state or condition of being aware; having knowledge; consciousness

the paragraph below is copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awareness there is more to this article it is a good read.

Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects, or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human’s or an animal’s perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.

I find myself agreeing with Avatar186’s contributions to this topic

simply contemplating the awareness.
What is pure awareness? Lol can it ever be impure?
Divided yes. United yes.

If I took a crack at "what is pure awareness"
I would say it is an "enlightened being"
one, in who exists, no unconsciousness.
a being with continual consciousness.
He who would have continual consciousness would be sleepless with perfect memory.

I do believe awareness and consciousness are the same thing. It simply takes a certain level of awareness to be self aware. A tree has awareness. Enough awareness to be self aware? I don’t know.

Even if not sleepless, during sleep, their would be self awareness.

I would like to add the following to the “enlightened being” phrase. The"enlightened being" is one that is consciously aware in more and more refined realms and therefore capable of being aware while in those realms to include Deep sleep and states of Samadhi. This super being has arrived at a state of permanency in that this being is always on so to speak whereas ones like myself must shut down nightly not being able to endure ongoing conscious awareness.

Deep sleep is a realm unto itself so is being under anesthesia for a surgery. in either case one is not conscious while in these states and therefore not aware of anything.

ray_killeen likes to write finger pointing at the moon, this is good Zen Koan speak and does inspire Kensho moments. But even Kensho moments are dependent on consciousness wedded to awareness in order to make the intuitive leap and arrive at the Ah Ha! moment.

Vichara Who Am I is a powerful method that creates a gravitic singularity and causes the mind to collapse into itself like a black hole.

Who am I? Who is this I that thinks these thoughts? who is this I that sees this thing? the eventual answer is “I I” followed by collapse of mind shunting of ego and silence. Awareness and consciousness without modification of what is left.

This is a very difficult method.

Quoting ray_killeen: Is not pure awareness what you were prior to consciousness arising, consciousness being everything this side of the I-AM-NESS, were you aware before this happening in consciousness and will you be aware when it expires.

No consciousness is not everything this side of the I -am-ness.

Mind is the tool of awareness and ego which is the automated part of the mind the accumulated memories automatic responses with emotions and misidentification with mind and its automated counterpart ego & memories are that which is everything this side of I- am -ness.

Can awareness be ware of itself? of course.

It is mind that ceases to exist and collapses when closely scrutinized via many different techniques. It is mind that can not be aware of itself because mind is the tool of consciousness and awareness and has no reality save for that of tool. The mind can never be aware of mind, the ego can never be aware of ego, the emotions can not be aware of emotions.

When the mind is turned inwards the ego and the emotions collapse, so does tactile sensation and awareness and consciousness of the relative outside word in moments of deep sadhana awareness and consciousness are made to be present in more refined realms as it were where mind becomes a very fine thing and then unneeded even as a tool. Beyond this I lack the ability to communicate so will now stop.

That which who am I exemplifies is that which is aware of the tools listed above.