Fantasy-dominated art/spirituality isnt bad nor good, its a necessity for change

Spirituality
#33

Forgive me for the criticism Suhas, but this:

The greatest obstacle that denies us this simple view, is our own mindset, laden with pre-conceived notions. For example, in each object we are talking about ‘dormant’ energy not dead energy. Though apparently stationary, it is very potent, dynamic and intelligent. ‘Inert’ objects at several degrees of magnification are seen quite fluid with particles staging a chaotic dance. So, energy is easily stirred by the wavelength of the desire to perceive.

Sounds like pseudoscience.

What do you mean by “the wavelength of the desire to perceive” ?
What do you mean by “dormant energy”? Do you mean the atomic energy stored up in the atom or the zero point energy stored in free space?

#34

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;82188]If ones were to use a process of elimination method such as self-inquiry “WHO AM I” the inquest might progress as such:
a.) Am I this body?
b.) Am I this mind?
c.) Am I this consciousness?

You seem to be indicating; “I think therefore I AM” whereas my experience is; “I AM therefore I think” wherein this sensation of “being-ness” (I-AM-NESS) becomes the self-evident source as to what sparks consciousness into play. The Yoga’s become extremely useful in moving about and evaluating all the various levels of consciousness (Waking, Dreaming, Sleeping) but as we go deeper into consciousness this mind/language communication becomes less effective, hence the terminology “finger to the moon” we simply point to that to which only you alone can confirm, in that sense I’m not accurately using Webster’s Dictionary definition for awareness. One may begin to realize that the mind/body is needed to sustain consciousness but consider whether consciousness belongs to mind/body or is it this animating consciousness that gives sentience to the psychosomatic apparatus.

d.) From where does consciousness arise?

Consider Consciousness a reflection of, what I refer to as, Pure Awareness against the surface of matter that which brings about your sense of being-ness and illusion in separation. This Pure Awareness is an Absolute state without beginning or end, timeless, space-less in no need of support of any kind, it can only become conscious (aware of itself) when it has an object to reflect against. Consciousness is the link to the Absolute and yet there is a gap in which mind cannot cross, a common analogy; the sun (being Pure Awareness) compared to sun reflected in dewdrops (awareness reflected as consciousness) i.e. the appearance of sun in the dew drops is not the sun. To sit in Samadhi (state of absolute perfection) consciousness comes to a complete stillness, movement ceases, not even the sense of I-AM-NESS exist, this is the state of Awareness I point to, only after the thought I AM arises does consciousness with its illusion of separation stir into play.

e.) Am I this Pure Absolute Awareness (consciousness at rest); that which was never born and shall never die, timeless, space-less, infinite, everything/nothing, this, that, neti neti…[/QUOTE]

Seeking: No I am not indicating “I think therefore I am” that is Ren? Descartes mistaken belief not mine. I say the whole I am construct is mind itself.

Since you have quoted Descartes I shall quote a far wiser being, and raise you a not this and a nor that :slight_smile:

Here are some things from Ramana Mahrishi he says it better than either one of us. This also confirms what I have been saying in other threads about the need for ego as a tool to communicate try communicating without mind and see how much you get across on an internet forum.

I guess we could all go around pointing at stuff and using the word “one” instead of “I” rearranging our grammar in an attempt to appear lofty & spiritually correct or spit out Koanish answers but that leaves even more open for misinterpretation and ultimately only further fools the ego doing this, confounds meaningful communication and generally is a nuisance to read.

In any event pointing at the moon still requires a mind and the boogy man ego. It is just hiding better when one does that and less likely to create waves in a temporary placidity. Catch that pointer by surprise and hear him yelp. :eek:

Language and writing is the ultimate outward form of mind expression and ego play. Still important to education none the less.

Question : What is the nature of the mind?

Ramana Maharshi : The mind is nothing other than the `I’-thought. The mind and the ego are one and the same. The other mental faculties such as the intellect and the memory are only this. Mind [manas], intellect [buddhi], the storehouse of mental tendencies [chittam], and ego [ahamkara]; all these are only the one mind itself. This is like different names being given to a man according to his different functions. The individual soul [jiva] is nothing but this soul or ego.

Question : How shall we discover the nature of the mind, that is, its ultimate cause, or the noumenon of which it is a manifestation?

Ramana Maharshi: Arranging thoughts in the order of value, the `I’-thought is the all-important thought. Personality-idea or thought is also the root or the stem of all other thoughts, since each idea or thought arises only as someone’s thought and is not known to exist independently of the ego.

The ego therefore exhibits thought activity. The second and the third persons [he, you, that, etc.] do not appear except to the first person [I]. Therefore they arise only after the first person appears, so all the three persons seem to rise and sink together. Trace, then, the ultimate cause of I' or personality. From where does thisI’ arise? Seek for it within; it then vanishes.

This is the pursuit of wisdom. When the mind unceasingly investigates its own nature, it transpires that there is no such thing as mind.

This is the direct path for all. The mind is merely thoughts.

Of all thoughts the thought I' is the root. Therefore the mind is only the thoughtI’. The birth of the `I’-thought is one’s own birth, its death is the person’s death.

After the `I’-thought has arisen, the wrong identity with the body arises.

Get rid of the I'-thought. So long asI’ is alive there is grief. When `I’ ceases to exist there is no grief.

Question : Yes, but when I take to the `I’-thought, other thoughts arise and disturb me.

Ramana Maharshi: See whose thoughts they are. They will vanish.

They have their root in the single `I’-thought. Hold it and they will disappear.

Question : How can any enquiry initiated by the ego reveal its own unreality?

Ramana Maharshi: The ego’s phenomenal existence is transcended when you dive into the source from where the `I’-thought rises.

Question : While making japa for an hour or more I fall into a state like sleep.

On waking up I recollect that my japa has been interrupted. So I try again.

[COLOR=“blue”]Ramana Maharshi:[/COLOR] `Like sleep’, that is right. It is the natural state.[/COLOR] Because you are now associated with the ego, you consider that the natural state is something which interrupts your work. So you must have the experience repeated until you realize that it is your natural state. You will then find that japa is extraneous but still it will go on automatically. Your present doubt is due to that false identity, namely of identifying yourself with the mind that does the japa. Japa means clinging to one thought to the exclusion of all other thoughts. That is its purpose. It leads to dhyana which ends in Self-realization or jnana.

Seeking: This is what I have been trying to indicate. The differences that leads this I away from I is done via Kriya Pranyama not self inquiry. It works quite well to arrive at what is so correctly described above by the Maharishi himself.

Now as far as Samadhi states go I can not sustain them for long periods of time they are often quite brief or so it seems often after Kriya practice I look at the clock and even though it seems as if no time has passed quite a bit has.

In any event there is a kind of bleed over into daily and nightly life. It is kind of like dipping a wooden spoon into a pot of boiling water with Tumeric little by little the spoon becomes more and more yellow with each removal of the spoon.

Maybe dipping a spoon into a pot of acid is a better analogy minus the connotation with pain. Dipping the spoon into the pot of acid time after time less and less of the spoon remains.

Kriya does not produce Samadhi. Kriya just sets the stage when performed with sincerity. Samadhi happens as it will or won’t. Practicing Kriya is like dipping the spoon.

What is it you do Ray? It seems that Yoga has not been it for you from your comments. Zazen perhaps?

#35

[QUOTE=Seeking;82217][COLOR=“Green”]What is it you do Ray? It seems that Yoga has not been it for you from your comments. Zazen perhaps?[/QUOTE]

I am that I am, Ray works as a structural engineer in New Jersey.

Not familiar with Ren? Descartes. Being born and raised in Pennsylvania the influence was Yoga, Tantra and Advaita Vedanta since this was the path Swami Rama suggested after setting up shop, (Ashram, Himalayan Institute of Yoga Science and Philosophy) in Honesdale, Pennsylvanian near my local. I am quite familiar with Adi Shankara, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and their lineage; recordings of their words indicate a reminder that the inner guru has the answers worth investigating.

#36

Surya Deva,

Good to interact with you after long.

There are several aspects of being a ‘pseudoscience’. First, the material scientists of the West are discovering the truth about the same world that we live in and the theorists of the East speak about. So, the observed phenomena are the same, methods of enquiry are different and so are the conclusions.

In calling the philosophy a pseudoscience, science becomes equally vulnerable as pseudo-philosophy. Especially so, as the science has undoubtedly evolved in the past and continues to evolve even now. Scientific discoveries are not just expanding in length & breadth, but developments in Quantum physics or epigenetics suggest it is getting richer in depth, ready to espouse new paradigms which just a few decades back were totally rejected by the scientific community.

But, science has an appeal created out of shared reverence and a well-orchestrated presence. Call anything as ‘scientifically proven’ or ‘found in the clinical tests’ and 99% people won’t even wink. Science may be genuinely aware of its own limitations, but the image of science in our minds is a set of undeniable ?truths?. And that for me is pseudoscience.

Science essentially looks for empirical data and then arrives at conclusions, which enables any one to recreate the phenomenon, in given environment and using given algorithm. This repeatability gives science its solid foundation and the scientific jargon, its irrefutability; so much that people are ready to believe everything ?scientific? to be true without repeating, recreating or even having the means to do so. Science when accepted with its limitations, unresolved issues and disputable claims remains a tool and not an ultimate source of truth.

Now, “the wavelength of the desire to perceive” may not fit into the established Western scientific jargon, but is consistent with the concept. This concept holds all the objects and the universe as multi-tiered (gross to subtle) which means there is no void but extremely subtle space that separates two objects. Desire is manifest energy and a trigger which moves across in waves. The space carries the waves up to the perceived object and causes the object?s energy to reciprocate.

Now let us talk about the “dormant energy”. Principle of ?Mass?energy equivalence? tells us that any object has a certain energy, even when it is stationary. This is ?potential energy? from its position in a field of force. A motionless body has no kinetic energy, and it may or may not have other amounts of internal stored energy, like chemical energy or thermal energy.

I think in special relativity, Einstein implies “rest mass” or “invariant mass”, as an invariant quantity which is the same for all observers in all reference frames; while "relativistic mass? in his proverbial equation, the measure of mass, is dependent on the velocity of the observer, in time and space. I called this energy ?dormant? to suggest that it stirs in response to the subtle waves of perspective desire, thus responding with waves caught by our senses.

#37

Thank you for your response Suhas.

I wasn’t really provoking a debate on philosophy of science. I have already come across and analysed arguments similar to the ones you just made above. I was calling your use of words “pseudoscientific” used to denote something which sounds scientific by using common terms from scientific jargon, but is actually nonsense. Such as “hyperdimensional oscillating frequency” sounds very scientific, but it is just a nonsense term I just made up.

I can honesty say, having some knowledge in science, that there is no such thing as a “wavelength of the desire to perceive” Similarly, there is no such thing as “dormant energy” and your use of in reference to GR is wrong. Mass energy equivalence does not mean a piece of matter has “stored” energy, it means literally that mass and energy can be converted into one another. Using the equation E=MC^2 we can calculate how much energy is released if all the mass in a piece of matter is converted into energy. In a nuclear reactor only a tiny fraction of the mass of Uranium gets converted into energy, but that tiny fraction is enough to generate tremendous amounts of nuclear energy. In a matter-antimatter reaction, all the matter gets converted into energy, releasing manifold times more energy.

As a published author and respected member you should be careful of abstracting these pseudoscientific explanations, because members familiar with these concepts will catch you out and you will lose credibility with them. Instead articulate what you are trying to say without trying to make it sound scientific by borrowing scientific terms.

#38

Surya Deva,

Your emphatic denial is characteristic of a majority of the scientific community. But there is a small minority of scientists who would take a more positive approach. Fortunately, I am not in the ‘business’ of yoga and sincerely believe that one’s learning never stops. So, I will be very happy to stand corrected. However, please rest assured that I would never say what I have no reason to say. I have always done my homework. But that is an insignificant issue.

I think for too long, Eastern philosophy was inaccessible to common people and so was the Western science through its jargon and complexity. If both are engaged in the inquiry of life how could their knowledge be for a privileged few?

All that I have tried to do here is to see if there is any common language, any shared logical constructs that would provide some common ground between yoga’s philosophy and today’s scientific observations. Of course, “wavelength of the desire to perceive” doesn’t appear in any scientific textbook, but the reason is that it is not, (perhaps yet not) part of the mainstream science. But, ‘earth is round’ wasn’t a scientific truth once, too!!

My point and appeal to you is that your knowledge of yoga and of conventional science should make you eager to explore that common ground and help develop the new concepts and paradigms which may have no “acceptance” today, but tomorrow may be different. In terms of sweat and toil, that effort is for the common good; calling something nonsense is a lot easier.

#39

Suhas, I am among those minority of scientists and philosophers who subscribe to the Yogic worldview. One of the leading scientists among this minority of scientists is Dean Radin, he has probably been the most outspoken and well published scientist in research in parapsychology, yoga and meditation, and even he would not have heard the words you use “wavelength of the desire to perceive” and “dormant energy” It is simply because, you made these terms up. In fact it quite aptly fits the title: fantasy dominated spirituality.

Anyway I just wanted to share my criticism, because for me it is an issue common with new agers to indulge in pseudoscience and fantasy and give spirituality a bad name. I have always seen you more like a yogi than a new ager, so it is quite disappointing to me to see you make up pseudoscientific terms like this. In my opinion you need to stick to Yoga and avoid these temptations to sound scientific. If you are going to use scientific terms then use them properly and understand them properly as well.

#40

The yogic theories and concepts you were trying to describe using scientific terms do actually have similar and corresponding scientific terms, but the ones you are using are incorrect.

“Wavelength of the desire to perceive” This is such an odd construction, that it is very difficult to make out what you are trying to say. However, from your explanations above I can glean that you referring to the Yogic concept that all matter exists on a continuum ranging from very subtle to most gross. In modern philosophy of science we use a concept called “superveniance” which basically means that the are subtle and more fundamental levels of matter which supervene on the more gross and more surface levels of matter. In Quantum mechanics this type of concept is used to describe any piece of matter as consisting of a matter aspect(described by classical physics) and a quantum aspect(described by quantum physics) In this case the more subtle and fundamental level of matter is modeled as a wavefunction which supervenes on the the more gross and surface level of matter. At the microscopic level of the quantum matter behaves in a diametrically opposite way to the way it behaves at the surface macroscopic level. Such as it is uncertain, non-local and less real. It is even believed now by the minority of scientists that the quantum level actually corresponds to a mental level in accordance with the yogic theory that at the subtle level matter is a mental entity.

As regards to “dormant energy” If you mean that a seemingly stationary piece of matter is teeming with energy, well this is a well known fact to anybody who has studied high school level physics. Yes, we know that matter is not stationary at the atomic level, there is constant activity of subatomic particles like electrons whirling around the nucleus of the atoms like the planets orbit the sun. We also understand that the atom is held by by nuclear bindings and this nuclear energy can be released. This understanding of the atomic level of matter has been long superseded though with quantum mechanics. In quantum mechanics it has been observed that electrons do not neatly orbit the nucleus of the atom at all, but they “jump” about. If this was happening at the macro level in the way planets orbit the sun the solar system would collapse. A more deeper understanding has now revealed that not only do electrons(and indeed all particles) jump about, they jump in and out of existence(event horizon of space) In quantum mechanics we use statistical mechanics to predict where the electron will appear. We say that prior to the electron appearing at any point in space it is a wavefunction, meaning that it does not exist at any single point, it is superpositioned at every point in space. When it is observed the wavefunction is collapsed and it appears at a single point in space.

There are competing theories to describe what exactly happens to the electron when it disappears out of space. The popular quantum mechanics theories say the electron does not actually exist as such, but only has a probability of existing. It only appears after the wavefunction collapse. Holographic quantum theories say that there is no real wavefunction collapse, rather the observed electron is a holographic projection of a more fundamental reality where it exists as only pure information. Quantum field theory says beyond the event-horizon of space exists a virtual quantum field aka as zero point energy field or quantum vacuum field teeming with infinite energy made out of virtual particles, these virtual particles fleet in and out of the quantum field. String theory says that the electrons exists in more dimensions than our observable 3D space, but we cannot directly observe those higher dimensions.

The term you are using “dormant energy” would be more closer to quantum field theory which tells us free space is teeming with energy, perhaps infinite energy, going against the classical assumption that free space is empty. Theoretically, as once remarked by Arthur C Clarke, the energy contained within the space contained in a tea cup is enough to boil all the oceans on Earth. In fact there is no real limit to the energy contained within free space, the potential source of energy is infinite. However, we do not know yet(and if we did, it is a well kept secret) how to tap this energy. The yogic concepts of kundalini and shakti are dead ringers for modern quantum field theory.

#41

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;82282]

The term you are using “dormant energy” would be more closer to quantum field theory which tells us free space is teeming with energy, perhaps infinite energy, going against the classical assumption that free space is empty. Theoretically, as once remarked by Arthur C Clarke, the energy contained within the space contained in a tea cup is enough to boil all the oceans on Earth. In fact there is no real limit to the energy contained within free space, the potential source of energy is infinite. However, we do not know yet(and if we did, it is a well kept secret) how to tap this energy. The yogic concepts of kundalini and shakti are dead ringers for modern quantum field theory.[/QUOTE]

Every bit of this is well written and very worthy of quotation, this was also very enjoyable to read. Would you mind further explaining how the yogic concepts of kundalini and shakti are dead ringers for modern quantum field theory?

Thanks.

#42

Thank you Seeking. The yogic concepts of kundalini and Shakti are tantric reworkings of classical yogic concepts prakriti, moolaprakriti and akasha. Kundalini shakti means “coiled energy” or potential energy, which is said to be infinite. It is regarded as the primal energy of nature, the grande source from which all other kinds of energy manifest, such as electrical energy, heat energy, nuclear energy etc. In the human body the Kundalini is said to rise from the base of the spine when the practitioner achieves a critical stage of yogic development. Gopi Krishna, regarded as one of the modern experts on Kundalini, regards Kundalini to be a natural evolutionary mechanism which rises naturally as we evolve. Yoga is an artificial process whereby we speed up our evolution through physical and mental practices, hence causing kundalini to rise sooner.

So how does the Yogic concept of Kundalini tally with the modern theory of the quantum field? The modern theory of the quantum field says that at the fundamental level of matter there exists an invisible and all pervading quantum field which contains possibly infinite potential energy. It is the source of all kinds of energy. It was believed by scientists like Nicola Tesla, who invented the Tesla coil that electricity is simply one kind of energy coming from the main field. He even used the yogic term “Akasha” to refer to it. Interestingly, even in Yoga the Sanskrit term for field, “Kshetra” is used to describe the field of matter. In the Gita Krishna says "Know the field and the knower of the field"
This energy can be tapped through various means, the Tesla coil for example can tap a much higher voltage and higher frequency of electricity from the field simply through a different configuration of electrical coil. It is also believed that some unexplained phenomena like sonoluminescence where sound energy converts into light energy, and anomalous phenomena like ball of lightening seen in nature may be explained through the existence of the quantum field. In fact the existence of the quantum field is now taken more seriously in science, some would even say it is a proven fact now. The existence of such a field which was strongly believed to exist by Max Plank(he called it the divine matrix), was rejected by Einstein’s GR and that dogma prevailed in modern science. However, in the past few decades the field theory has returned and supported by much stronger empirical evidence, most notably the casimir effect. There have been more controversial applications of quantum field theory in the fields of biology, such as Rupert Sheldrakes’s morphogenetic field. A leading philosopher of science and scientist Erwin Lazslo has recognized it as the “Akashic field” In fact quite a few modern scientists have recognized this field to be the same as the Yogic field theory, the first being as already mentioned Tesla.

Some of the common features between the Yogic field theory and quantum field theory

*Unmanifest
*Invisible
*All pervading and universal/non local
*Primordial source of all matter

  • Potential source of energy to be tapped

Slowly, but surely modern science is unwittingly moving to a much more Yogic worldview. So it is not surprising that leading scientists and philosophers are making parallels to the Yogic Eastern philosophies.

#43

I love reading your posts, especially when the sciences become involved. You have a way of making the complex enjoyable to attempt to understand. If you have any interest in teaching science you would make a great teacher.

#44

“Slowly, but surely modern science is unwittingly moving to a much more Yogic worldview. So it is not surprising that leading scientists and philosophers are making parallels to the Yogic Eastern philosophies.”

Making parallels for sure, but not in any form of surrender. Science’s bottom-up approach and yogic holistic top-down has to meet somewhere. But a pre-requisite to it is experimenting and trying cross-border pollination of ideas. New paradigms will be born only thus.

Now when one percieves an object, sensory data is collected through the sense organs. This data has to travel in, has to be in waveform and has to be carried by subtle medium. Since perception is preceded by attention (caused by desire) mind energy must be directing waves towards the perceived object, space must be carrying the waves back & forth.

Just like in a radar, a signal is transmitted, it bounces off an object and it is later received by some type of receiver. Radars use certain kinds of electromagnetic waves called radio waves and microwaves. Something similar must be happening in the process of perception.

Now, this is not dazzling sciene, but seems to be explaining the phenomenon in certin manner. The same is the situation with Potential energy in a statioary object. Science seems to have also discovered that when two stationary objects are brought within certain distance they react behaviorally with the respective potemtial energies causing them to come closer or disperse. I see a parallel in the perception process, that causes cognition of the perceived object’s form. The form is creation of guna, and must be resulting as the behavior caused by the potential energy.

Lack of grooming in the scientific world may prevent me from using the ‘correct’ language, but the ideas appear to me to make sense. I would appeal again Surya Deva to provide acceptable or novel language to what the process seems to be. That would be interesting and useful contribution.

#45

But it appears everyone is very nearly on the same page and a common language describing the thing that is trying to be shared needs to be used otherwise confusion occurs and information is not received from those being generous hearted enough to share.

The biggest problem with the Indian way of revealing the truth of how things operate is that the one doing the perceiving has to be the tool of perception as well.

Unfortunately others can not know what is known unless they also work on themselves to be capable of the same perceptions.

Then and only then once perceived can one say yes this is so, that is true, unfortunately no one believes that person either unless they do as that person has and become capable of perceiving by becoming the instrument of perception.

Then Nationalism and belief come into the picture and the Indian way becomes subject to scorn and derision.

The Indian way is the superior way to understand in a thoroughly experiential manner.

Sadly the India way or Yogic way has failed to be translated to practical phenomenal world purpose which is why while spiritually rich India when compared to other nations became materially poor for the longest of times and was occupied by foreign invaders with superior firepower. In the end the Wisdom of Ghandi and too large of a population to control who refused to be controlled pushed the British out like the splinter they were.

Western Science uses external tools and ways of measuring and reproducing things so that anyone can verify the truth repeat it and say ah yes heating a pot to this temperature at this elevation above sea level does indeed make water boil.

Here write this down on the side of a box and sell your product. The purchasing person never understands the theory of thermodynamics does not need to they just follow the instructions boil water and make there pasta.

In this manner most will never understand in a thoroughly experiential way but a consensus of agreement without doubt can be achieved.

So as Western science does as described above and India is always in the position of saying I told ya so a long time ago but no one can ever prove that was what they were actually saying or not.

The materialistic west will never be able to condition itself to Indian ways of yoga by and large all the West is concerned with is what they think is Hatha Yoga more like studio yoga or pay attention to me see how good I look, let me act odd and tell you how wonderful going to watchamacallits studio is, blah, blah, blah organic this, blah,blah skin tight outfit, etc…

I predict the West will one day make it possible to perceive the very thing advanced Yogis can but it will be done via very sophisticated machines that to us now would appear to be magic. Still cheating it this way will never really produce the same result as the goals are always going to be separate.

Sadly it seems that the ones capable of perceiving yogic truths are not interested in engaging in Western style Science and thereby creating a better grade of steel as an example because the very becoming of the tool of perception and the one perceiving appears to remove the interest in the phenomenal world to such an extent due to the identification with finer and finer realities. This I understand.

#46

Now when one percieves an object, sensory data is collected through the sense organs. This data has to travel in, has to be in waveform and has to be carried by subtle medium. Since perception is preceded by attention (caused by desire) mind energy must be directing waves towards the perceived object, space must be carrying the waves back & forth.

Just like in a radar, a signal is transmitted, it bounces off an object and it is later received by some type of receiver. Radars use certain kinds of electromagnetic waves called radio waves and microwaves. Something similar must be happening in the process of perception.

This makes a lot more sense to me. I agree that this is how perception happens. It has long been believed by yogis and other Indian philosophers that perception is an interactive process and not a receptive process. Ironically, I was reading an article on the Indian history of science, and the author writes “They wrongly believed that rays went out of the mind/eyes to the object, rather than light entering the eyes’s retina” Actually, the author is wrong, in Ayurveda it explains explicitly that one sees because light rays enter the retina in the eyes and are transmitted via the optic nerve(Sushrutha Samhita, with Chakrapani’s commentary) What they meant was that perception is an interactive process which involves an interaction between the mind and the object being apprehended. This process is subtle and involved subtle particles called tanmatras that radiate from the mind to the object.

We can now actually prove that something does indeed emit out of the mind empirically, for studies such in telepathy have shown that when one thinks about somebody(preceded by a desire) it causes neural activity in the brain of the person you are thinking of. Therefore, something must indeed be travelling from the mind of the sender and the receiver for this phenomena to become explicable.

Now, this is not dazzling sciene, but seems to be explaining the phenomenon in certin manner. The same is the situation with Potential energy in a statioary object. Science seems to have also discovered that when two stationary objects are brought within certain distance they react behaviorally with the respective potemtial energies causing them to come closer or disperse. I see a parallel in the perception process, that causes cognition of the perceived object’s form. The form is creation of guna, and must be resulting as the behavior caused by the potential energy.

I am not sure which experiments you are talking about. However, it does remind of an information theory in quantum mechanics. According to this theory any kind of new information added to a system alters the outcome of the system. So in a given fixed system if we introduce something else, such as a human observer present in an experiment, the outcome has changed by the mere presence of the observer. Likewise, when two objects are close to one another, the systems outcome has been changed. This could explain for example why somebody walking into a room can be detected, despite the fact that you have not directly seen them enter.

Quantum phenomena is not perceptible to our 5 senses, but to the 6th sense of our mind quantum phenomena can become perceptible. In the example where somebody walks into a room or even somebody gazing at you behind your back, while the 5 senses cannot detect this phenomena, the 6th sense of the mind has detected it and we may even unconsciously feel it. This is why people unconsciously know they are being stared at.

#47

Sadly it seems that the ones capable of perceiving yogic truths are not interested in engaging in Western style Science and thereby creating a better grade of steel as an example because the very becoming of the tool of perception and the one perceiving appears to remove the interest in the phenomenal world to such an extent due to the identification with finer and finer realities. This I understand.

Ironically, India was the first producer and exporter of steel, producing the highest grade of steel the world has ever known. There has been a lot of scientific curiosity into India’s ancient wootz steel for its legendary strength, it was only recently discovered by German scientists by analyzing samples of it under an electron microscope that it was reinforced with carbon nanotubes. India has been producing and exporting steel since 200BCE. The secrets of steel manufacture were not known in the West, until in the modern age when Western metallurgists studied India’s wootz steel and reverse engineered it.

The point I am making that the popular romantic dichotomy we have all heard that India was a spiritual, mystical haven as opposed to the West a mega giant of rationality, science and technology is not true. India was leading the world in science and technology until the modern age. It was ahead in virtually every field: mathematics, medicine, chemistry, production technology, agriculture, navigation. So much of what we consider to be modern is directly derived from India: cotton gin, modern surgery and surgical instruments, modern taxonomies, zinc refinement, calculus, psychology. India fell behind in science and the West raced ahead, because Indian scientific growth was brought to a near standstill by the Muslim invasions and then the European colonial invasions headed by the British. Otherwise, India was well on track to developing the modern scientific experimental method and modern mathematical methods.

The real difference between the West and India is the system of ethics. India is a Dharmic civilization and the West is an Abrahamic civilization. In science and technology there is no major difference, both the West and India are scientific civilizations. Even today Indians are showing their natural talents in science and technology. The other difference is in the type of science and technology: India cultivated the soft and inner-sciences such as psychology, consciousness studies, epistemology and linguistics, whereas the West cultivated the outer-sciences like mechanics, physics and engineering. This is why India developed the technology of Sanskrit and Yoga and the West developed the technology of steam engines and motors.

#48

Another point, the West and India are practically two peas of the same pod. They are both Indo-European civilizations, which over time became rivals. Almost like two brothers that drifted apart. They share a lot of the same philosophy, myths, beliefs, traditions and languages.

The further back we go in history, the more the West and India resemble each other. In pre-Christian Europe we find the Celtic cultures, pagan religions have very strong resemblance to the Vedic culture of India. One of the foremost scholars Peter Ellis in Celtic studies notes these strong similarities and affirms the Vedic links.

They drifted apart when the Semitic influences invaded into Europe. The Semitic influences originating from the Sumerians, corrupted the original kinship between the Indians and the Europeans(West) Otherwise you will find how much the Greeks loved Indian philosophy and regularly visited India. It is strongly believed that Pythagoras traveled to India, where he learned his famous theorem and philosophy. The Greeks loved India so much that they had the Bhagvad Gita translated into Greek. There were also Indo-Greek kingdoms. However, you start to see enmity develop between Indian civilization and Western civilization after Christianity takes over. Christianity vehemently hated the pagan culture of Europe, whose root was India, that they made made every effort to eradicate it and demonize it. They also tried to suppress the Indian connection in European history. This is why it was so surprising to the Europeans when they colonized India that they shared history and India was the motherland of the Indo-European people. Christian missionaries again suppressed it and are still suppressing this truth.

#49

for filling in the gaps actually canyon like in many ways concerning history. I always knew India was ultra advanced at one time but did not know what had happened.

#50

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;82331] in Ayurveda it explains explicitly that one sees because light rays enter the retina in the eyes and are transmitted via the optic nerve(Sushrutha Samhita, with Chakrapani’s commentary) What they meant was that perception is an interactive process which involves an interaction between the mind and the object being apprehended. This process is subtle and involved subtle particles called tanmatras that radiate from the mind to the object.

We can now actually prove that something does indeed emit out of the mind empirically, for studies such in telepathy have shown that when one thinks about somebody(preceded by a desire) it causes neural activity in the brain of the person you are thinking of. Therefore, something must indeed be travelling from the mind of the sender and the receiver for this phenomena to become explicable.

Quantum phenomena is not perceptible to our 5 senses, but to the 6th sense of our mind quantum phenomena can become perceptible. In the example where somebody walks into a room or even somebody gazing at you behind your back, while the 5 senses cannot detect this phenomena, the 6th sense of the mind has detected it and we may even unconsciously feel it. This is why people unconsciously know they are being stared at.[/QUOTE]

Quantum entanglement or Holography perhaps both? seem to be good explanations.

It seems Quantum entanglement covers the aspect of neural activity in the brain of the person one is thinking of. The theory of quantum Holography seems to be the perfect explanation for the transmission medium.

Your thoughts S.D.?

#51

Yes quantum entanglement is a good theory to explain the transmission of information between a person we are thinking of and neural activity taking place in their brain, but something still has to be transmitted between them for the information transfer to take place. This transmission must take place in time, because the information comes to at us a point in time. First the event of the thinking has to take place, before the neural activity takes place. This means there must be a speed to the transmission of the information.

It has been believed by quantum physicists that the information does not travel, but recent experiments in QE have been to give estimates for the speed of transmission of information at 10,000 times the speed of light. This is consistent with Yoga, the tanmatras are particles that precede perception, and thus must necessarily travel faster than the speed of light.

#52

I think the whole idea is to loose fantasy right? otherwise you just make it more complecated and reality becomes more experienced through these fantasy " filters"
Loose the idea what reality is and learn to directly experience it I would say. Peace
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