Fated to be alone forever?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#27

I think when we have such an open and liberal definition of what spiritual is, it ceases being helpful anymore. If everybody is spiritual, then nobody is spiritual. This is why the word spiritual is so fuzzy, but I only use it because that is the closest term in English to describe such a pursuit in life. Just as I have to use the term "Hindu’ to describe my religious-philosophical viewpoints in life, when I actually mean Santana dharma, which is not really a religion in the conventional way.

In Vedanta they use other definitions which are more clear and helpful: mumukshu and jijanasu. Mumukshu is somebody who is in search of the spiritual, in that the spiritual has been awakened in them and now nothing else is satisfying them anymore, but they themselves do not know what is lacking. They just have a burning desire for the spiritual. So they aimlessly wander from place to place finding that which will appease their thirst.
Jijanasu is a mumukshu who has a burning desire for the spiritual and has successfully diagnosed why they have that burning desire and the means to ending it, the knowledge that leads to end of it.

Now us spiritual seekers have to be very honest with ourselves. I know I have. If that burning desire for the divine is not there within us. If one has not yet developed dispassion for the world - then forget it, one is not even a mumukshu, let alone a jijnasu.
That dispassion first has to come, and I had thought that I reached that stage because nothing really appealed to me in the world, but then I realized especially in India, that to be honest I had not really reached dispassion, but I had failed in my wordly life. I was running away from the world and rationalizing it being dipassionate. No, because if it was dispassion I would not be craving in my heart friends, recognition, finding the right career and sex and enjoyment. I found myself slipping into that when I went to India, realising my spiritual yearning was weaker than my yearning for the wordly. I was consumed by the wordly and this is why I decided I would deal with the wordly.

I have diagnosed in Bolno the same condition as me(despite him being much younger than me) He is not ready for spirituality. He is looking for girls, friends, fun, enjoyment and finding his place in the world. He is certainly not dispassionate about them, otherwise he would not be asking us how to stop liking girls. There is nothing wrong with this desire of his, it is a legitimate desire(kama) and his soul needs to experience it. If he tries to deprive himself of the experience of sex in his life, then those latent tendencies will carry over with his soul into his next life. He needs to experience what sex is life, and develop dispassion for it. When he is done with the worldy, he is ready for the spiritual.

There is really no rush. We have been evolving for millions of years, and have through out many lifetimes experienced a lot. Now that we are at the human stage, we are having human experiences, playing different roles in lifetimes to get the full breadth of human experience. When we have had enough human experiences, the next stage will automatically follow. That yearning must be there though for this to happen. This yearning will come in two ways

  1. Left hand path: Work on your desires. Make your life’s purpose to work on your desires. If that means allowing yourself to indulge in every vice you have denied yourself so far, then so be it(as long as it lawful) Do not make a half hearted effort - plunge yourself in this decadence - totally shock your sensory system. You may even die trying. If done correctly, dispassion will come.

  2. Right hand path: Force yourself, kicking and screaming to the ascetic life of the spiritual. Deny yourself all sensory pleasures. Immerse yourself in the spiritual. Constantly read scriptures and contemplate on it. Purify your mind and body through the practice of Yoga. Dispassion will develop gradually over a long time. This is a long, painful and arduous path. It may take lifetimes on this path before the right purification has been received. The chances are many of us current spiritual seekers were on this path in past lifetimes, but have fallen. A spiritual friend of mine insists that is my case lol

I do not believe in half-hearted efforts, because they are a cop out. I meet people like this a dime a dozen in the spiritual community. They practice Yoga and meditation on the weekend, and in the week days they indulge in worldy life like any other ordinary person. They are not more cultivated than an ordinary person, despite doing their Yoga and meditation practice. Be serious and sincere in your practice. Be clear of your goals in life and work at them. Stop faffing about, trying to go left and right at the same time.

#28

From the Gita:
Even a little of this practice will shelter you from great sorrow.
On this path no effort is ever wasted, no gain is ever reversed.

Every bit counts he is planting seeds…

#29

Right, Left, what about the middle path?

#30

There is no middle path :smiley: It is a cop out for people who are half-hearted about their spirituality. Some consider Buddhism to be a middle path, but actually Buddhism is an ascetic path just like Yoga.

#31

Bolno,

Returning to the theme of this thread, you may learn a lot just by going through the posts. When our opinions become self-hypnotizing most of us forget to detach from them to see the truth. The opinions become the truth.

It is really important in life, to gauge how much of the other people’s behavior is perceived (through one’s colored glasses) and real. Otherwise what happens with girls today can repeat with friends,family, other people and objects to bring even greater pain.

One fine morning, get up and be the sunshine and with slate clean and mind fresh approach the girl not for her looks but for the inner vibations you feel. See for yourself. Walking the talk is tough, but brings results.

#32

To Surya Deva
thank you oh Holy One!!! :wink: now i see the light! How much will you charge me for a 3 week retreat! LOL

#33

I don’t offer retreats :wink:

#34

I somewhat suspect bolno is a troll. Last time I checked he was going to commit suicide. Now he’s posting another thread asking for the same kind of advice as usual. In any case this does not mean people who have advised him have wasted their time, there are genuine people in the same boat as bolno claims to be, who will stand to benefit from it.

#35

Suffering.

#36

Dealing with sexual frustration and the sense of loneliness, is torturing
but there is hope, i dealt with a pornography addiction, but thru wrestling with it
i have learned so much above all compassion for my self and others, but also, it led me on a path to discovering sooo much about my energy system, how my mind works, relationships with myself and others, diet etc…
Its that dark pit of lonliness that you must confront, listen to, decipher, along the way I keep discovering little gifts and i am starting the sense the bigger gift at the end…

Compassion for my brothers, sisters and comrades on all paths of life, my hear t goes out to you, we are in this together!!
Sarvakalavidam Brahamam Aham Brahman, EVerything is Brahman, I am Brahman

#37

you say :if somebody cannot handle getting a girlfriend in life, how are they going to handle the spiritual life?

IF you cant handle a girl it is not same as manage a spiritual life. 2 different things.

some are good in football some are good parents some other are good at being casanova. There shouldnt even be a comparison, also there are monks that never had intercourse and choose to become monks at a young age. So then they cant be fit.

You seem to see all in black or white. Also just because it is in some scripture it is not 100%true. You know how many paths there are in spirutuality in india and most of them are deluded. There is not much truth left and scriptures can be interpretated in different manners.

It is not the masses fault about yoga. But who made it accessible to the west? the greedy yogis. It is easy to blaim the masses. Well many people are bragging about their guru-i have a guru etc but those so called gurus are a joke most times. They dont even have good answers but people follow them.

Unpure people will look for unpure teachers . Law of attraction. they feel they are with same kind of people so they feel safe. So if someone is pure those unpure will most certain run away as they dont feel comfortable close to them as they do not vibrate in the same frequency. Or they will feel unpure close to them.

All practice with the mind is good even though you run for worldy life. You can not say someone is not fit for meditation beause he cant follow strict rules. What ever good deeds you do you take with you to afterlife. If we tell people they can forget about spirituality the world will become lost. The world is now very unstable and run by greed. IF some people try to do little good there could be a chainreaction. we have to start somehwere like dominobricks.

Budhda is said to have eons of life before he was a bodhi, do you think he was 100% in all lifes? what little we do we take to next life so by saying to someone he is not fit it is not a good deed.

So if there is no middle rule as you say, and we look at the yogis of india that not even them can follow that rule it is better if you tell all people that they should not try to follow any spiritual form at all cost cause they will not manage. Then you will see what happens. If you follow spirituality you should tell people whatever little they do is good and encourae them to become better instead. And you will notice a big change. Try it it is free.

Sometimes it is not like we think it is.

#38

IF you cant handle a girl it is not same as manage a spiritual life. 2 different things.

Indeed, and getting a date and girl is a lot easier. Most people can do it. Spirituality, however, taming the storm that is the mind is definitely not easy. It is only for the most brave and strongest of people. Like I said it is for winners not losers.

I am not going to budge on my stance because I take spirituality seriously, serious enough for me to go to India for 6 months on a spiritual journey. I do things seriously and sincerely, not half heartedly. That is how one wins in the game of life: set your goals and work on your goals.

You can content yourself as much as you want with the “every little counts” and “it will all pass over into my next life” but the reality is we don’t have a lot of time on Earth to waste and the future is unpredictable, anything could happen, including death. What is going to happen in our next life is not predictable, you may not even get the opportunity to be spiritual in your next life and it certainly will not be the same you in that life. In the Indian spiritual tradition, coming back even once is seen like a punishment rather than an opportunity. It is this life, and this life alone one must attain liberation.

If spirituality is not the most important thing in your life, then stop pretending to be spiritual. If girls are important, be honest and acknowledge it. If money is important, be honest and acknowledge it. I am not going to judge you harshly for that - but stop trying to have your cake and eat it as well - doing a little bit of meditation here and there, attending a retreat here and there, a little bit of charity here and there is not going to bring you to liberation. The reason why I encounter a dime a dozen so-called spiritual people who have been practicing for years and even decades who have nothing extraordinary about them is because they are not taking spirituality seriously, they are hypocrites trying to be spiritual and wordly at the same time.

I say spirituality has become a joke today because the masses now masquerade around as spiritual, but are in fact ordinary people and do ordinary things, and spoil the image for all spiritual people in general. There was a time when spiritual people like sages, gurus and rishis commanded respect in society. Today, because the spiritual world is now full of charlatans, fakes and pretenders, sages, gurus and rishis have lost respect in society.

#39

To add:

To dissuade somebody from spirituality and encourage them to focus on their current goals is not not helping, but helps a lot. It allows people to be clear exactly in their mind on they want and when they are clear what they want, they can move towards getting it. If what somebody wants is sex, then be clear that is what you want, then put in the effort to get it.

This actually plays into spirituality. What is holding us back from the divine is our egoic wants and desires. As long as they are there, the the feeling for the divine cannot arise within us. This is why in the spiritual traditions desire is seen as something which holds us back, limits us, and creates suffering for us(first noble truth of Buddha) hence the ideal state is said to be a state of desirelessness.

And believe you me, I have found the force of desire the hardest thing to deal with in my own spiritual path. It has prevented me from developing further in life. This is why I decided that I needed to work on my desires. Like I said there are two major ways of doing it:

Right hand path: Literally forcing yourself to go in the opposite direction of your desires. It means following a very rigid code of life. The kind of life you would have to lead if you went to a monastery(5 am wake up, fixed times for meditation/prayer, basic, tasteless food, 9pm sleep) No gossip, maintaining silence at most times, no television, no sports, celibacy. This highly regimented life is designed to force your mind into new habits and by doing so the desires within one gradually begin to weaken.

Left hand path: Working directly with your desire and experiencing its result. The aim is to transcend the desire by developing dispassion for it. For example, suppose you have an addiction to chocolate. Then eat chocolate and see how it makes you feel. Then eat another and see how that feels. Then another… and another… and another. Eventually dispassion will come and you will not want to eat another chocolate.

In my experience I have found the left hand path is the most practical way of overcoming desire and it works very well. Deal with your desires one by one, that eventually none are left. I feel like I have come a longer way in my spiritual development by following this path, than I ever did with the right hand path.

If it is the desire of girls that is holding you back. Then get a girl, experience what it is like, and trust me when the novelty wears out you will be thinking to yourself, “Why did I want this so much before” When the realization comes that getting a girl has not really brought you fulfillment, you will develop dispassion for girls. Then your mind will shift to the next desire… and the next… and the next until no more are left to experience.

The left hand path actually mirrors how nature works according to Samkhya. Nature is constantly moving us forward towards our final liberation by producing the experiences that we need or desire. When the soul has experienced it, understood it and developed dispassion, nature stops producing those experiences. This process has been automatic up until the human stage, where the human then takes conscious control of their evolution. Thus it is up to us to carry out own evolution by consciously carrying out the process nature does(really we are just nature personified).

#40

Hello

When i say little is better than nothing i talk about common man. Im not telling you about my life im not here defending my ego either.

And it is true little is better than nothing, im sorry if you cant see it that way but maybe you will at a later point. You talk now from your point of view -you have come further than most of humans. But what did you do for some lifetimes ago? Where you then this serious? I doubt that and you cant be serious if you didnt get tired of this life. All has to reach there sometime. Maybe some lifes ago your were worse than him.

We have all been where he is now. At some time ago.

My message was give people water so that they grow instead.

And you talk about winners and losers, why are you splitting people into groups we are all the same, just that some are ruled by their minds but their mind is not their real self. A better word is ignorant. Cause how can you judge people for something that is not them. When you say that also it means you qualify your self as winner. Would this be appropriate for a spiritual man? Indirectly you say that all that are mixed up in worldly matters are losers. A loser today can exceed you tomorrow. And in previous life maybe you were a loser. If you became enlightened tomorrow would you then say im a winner yeah and rest is loser?

But it is true that noone is fit for spiritual life if mixed up in the world but that doesnt mean he should not meditate, maybe he works in this life mixed up in the world but he start meditate every day and then next life he come to the point where you are now.
But noone can start from first life to become as seriuos as you, not even you did.You must have incarnated many times. Your actions puts you into place in next life, so what little you do does matter. IF you are only capable of doing little you will be rewarded in this and next life. Otherwise it doesnt matter if i do evil stuff halfheartedly nothing bad will happen to me if we use the opposite of what you said.

#41

Prefer me to use the word ignorant and foolish :wink:

You assume spiritual evolution is linear and always going in one direction. It does not quite work like that, it can go up as well as down. It is based on this understanding the game Snakes and Ladders was invented. There are some ladders that can take you high very quickly, but there are some snakes which which take you all the way back down.

There is no time to waste. If you put in a little effort, you will get little gains. If you put in a little effort going up, and more effort going down, you will end up going down. Like taking 2 steps forward, and 3 steps back. There are some people who meditate an hour a day and then on the weekend go party heavy drinking, smoking, doing drugs - and several years down the line you meet these people and they’re nowhere.

Attaining liberation by the end of this lifetime is a tall order. Nobody is going to get liberation if they are half-hearted in their effort. Nature has its own way of sorting out the chaff from the wheat. Most people are chaff, they put in little effort in life, spend most of their time faffing about, and then leave Earth. A few are the wheat that take their life seriously, commit themselves to achieving their goals and emerge as successes in whatever area they apply themselves in.

Masses are invariably stupid and failures. Genius and greatness is rare.

#42

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;72685]I somewhat suspect bolno is a troll. Last time I checked he was going to commit suicide.[/QUOTE]

This is true. His suicide threat came after this one and has been deleted (or I can’t see it). If he is genuine, then he’s not around to read all the excellent posts.

#43

its true noone halfhearted will become enlightened, some people also dont want to be that. Maybe they are scared and dont know its the greatest gift you can get on earth. but as there is a saying a sinner can become a saint tomorrow. So its not easy to observe and say this guy wont make it as it can be wrong. All people has to start somewhere and its better to cherish them to do meditation than not. Sometimes it turns out that the one you didnt have much thought for is the one that surprises you.

There is not a rule without exceptions. So if we use our minds and judging people its not correct as we might be wrong. There are many examples. So even a killer and thief could be fit for it.

And you have the one who used to rob and kill swamis and then later on became a swami him self. Probably you can google his name as i forgot it.

And mila repa who killed many people.

So who seems most unfit can change their life drastical. scriptures they are just guidelines and the truth cant be explained by just words. it must be felt.

angulimala thought by release suffering by killing 1000 men he would become enlightened. After he have killed 999 he met buddha. You should see the movie.

People tend to judge too much. And they think they know how an enlightened person would and should behave. Even though they never met one. This is foolish. But we should not be like those people.

#44

This discussion seems to overflow right now.

fakeyogis, can you please proof this as I cannot read it anywhere:

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;72691]you say :if somebody cannot handle getting a girlfriend in life, how are they going to handle the spiritual life?
[/QUOTE]

this as well:

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;72691]there is no middle rule as you say[/QUOTE]

This does not have to be true:

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;72691]
If he is genuine, then he’s not around to read all the excellent posts.[/QUOTE]

Word of the day, which includes a lot more truth than the author might think :wink: :

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;72691]
People tend to judge too much. And they think they know how an enlightened person would and should behave. Even though they never met one. This is foolish. But we should not be like those people.[/QUOTE]

This discussion is very interesting, even for bolno, who has at least one living person behind him with some approach to the problems described. I like to read the posts but please don’t be too generous with assumptions.

#45

You are to quick you cut out the words from the whole sentance so the meaning becomes totally different for anyone to see and deluded and you ask me to proof this.
This can be the reason why everything have got deluded i thank you for showing me this experience. Now i have a understanding from a deeper level. From the time when we had no magazines there was mouth to mouth. I have also been to quick before and in school i never finnished reading before i did the task, and the outcome was not good as we can guess :).
It can happen quite easily if we read too fast.

My advice to you is to read everything again. And please dont miss out the words infront i.e so if.

Then i can answer your questions happily.IF i can.

Some things can be proved and some not cause the latter needs experience in order to belive.

#46

its true noone halfhearted will become enlightened, some people also dont want to be that.

Exactly, and those people are not spiritual. They have other priorities in life.

I am not denying that sinners can also become saints. They become saints because they the sinner is committed to becoming one and then they succeed. Then we can say that the sinner is on a spiritual path. I am just denying those people who do not commit to spirituality. They do not deserve to be called spiritual. It is unfair on genuine spiritual people to call these people spiritual.