Yoga Journal published an article on lower back pain. This is extraction from the article that make me think that forward bending is dangerous for healthy people. "… disc damage is just as frequently caused by the smaller but repetitious forward-bending movements … "
(entire article can be found on http://www.yogajournal.com/health/125?page=2)
at the same article she says: “When you are ready to start, I suggest you begin with standing forward bends. …”
confusing…
City Monk, I speak from the experience of one who suffered a severe ruptured disk, lower back L4-L5, which required surgery and a long recovery period. I still have nerve damage as a result, but other than that I’ve been able to recover almost fully, and yoga has been instrumental in that. There were times when I could barely tie my shoes, but I can now do Uttanasana with hands nearly flat on the floor (can’t touch head to knees yet).
I think people should pay very careful attention to this article, for example:
If your usual posture is rounded forward, with a flattened lower back, posterior-tilted pelvis, and tight hamstrings, you are at risk for back injury in forward bends and need to take special care as you prepare to practice them.
Also note that the author is most concerned about [I]sitting[/I] forward bends.
When I was injured I learned about the key importance of the lordosis or curvature in the lower back. I’m really self-taught as a yogi, but I think instructors will agree that it is important to maintain that curvature in the lower back for as long as possible when doing forward bends. I think that when doing forward bends, most people will instinctively tend to round the lower back. That is where you may cause yourself some problems.
Also I think it is important to balance forward bends with back bends. That is one of th reasons I like surya namaskar, because it is a nice combination of forward and back bends.
I’ve heard the approach is to “lengthen” then bend.
I.E. Get Tall. Stretch the spine. Lenghten the spin. Then bend. The lengthening or stretching of the spine will help to reduce/ eliminate unwanted / painful disk compression.
Brian Kest taught me that!
The author is saying:
[I]“For most of us, half of our body weight is above the waist. Just as a child “weighs more” as he or she slides away from the center to sit at the end of a teeter-totter, our own upper body weight exerts greater force at the disc as we bend farther forward. This tremendous force on the disc, added to the strain on the supporting ligaments, sets the stage for damage.”[/I]
But at sitting positions the force on the disc is not that big, since the upperbody will be blocked by the legs and the legs give support. This is not the same as the examples the author mention:
“[I]In our society, opportunities abound for repetitive forward bending: child care, yardwork, housework, shopping. Even sedentary work may exert strain on the lower back; for example, someone bending and twisting from a sitting position to lift a heavy object out of a bottom desk drawer. The greater the weight being lifted (and the weight of one’s own body), the greater the pressure on the disc.”[/I]
So it depends on the starting position. Even in standing positions there is not that much force on the disc. In standing forward bends the pressure on the disc will be high if the upperbody is in a straight (horizonal) line, but we normally never maintain such a position during a yogaclass. Most of the times there is a controlled movement and the movement stops when the upperbody is more close to the legs, and at that point there is not so much force on the disc. You can’t compare this to uncontrolled forward bends from a chair, or childcare etc…
But at sitting positions the force on the disc is not that big, since the upperbody will be blocked by the legs and the legs give support. This is not the same as the examples the author mention:
You should talk to a spine surgeon sometime. My surgeon told me that sitting places the [I]most[/I] weight on the disk. You may notice that when bending and twisting from a sitting position, the lower back will be rounded.
I repeat it is very important to maintain the curvature in the lower back. That will function to stretch and lengthen the spine.
[QUOTE=Asuri;46240]You should talk to a spine surgeon sometime. My surgeon told me that sitting places the [I]most[/I] weight on the disk. You may notice that when bending and twisting from a sitting position, the lower back will be rounded.
I repeat it is very important to maintain the curvature in the lower back. That will function to stretch and lengthen the spine.[/QUOTE]
Yes of course I agree with you, but now you are talking about keeping the right posture, which of course is important in this (and in every) position.
The lower back will be rounded in sitting position if the hamstrings are not flexible enough(or you bend to far) and they pull down the pelvis, not because of the weight on the disc.
The author of the article wrote:
[I]“For most of us, half of our body weight is above the waist. Just as a child “weighs more” as he or she slides away from the center to sit at the end of a teeter-totter, our own upper body weight exerts greater force at the disc as we bend farther forward. This tremendous force on the disc, added to the strain on the supporting ligaments, sets the stage for damage.”[/I]
If we bend farther forward from sitting position with straigt legs, this force the author is takling about, is not so big as while sitting on a chair for example.
So indeed if you keep the curvature there is not that much stress on the disc in sitting position, since the force of the body wheight is not that big (comparing to standing position for example).
Please do not misunderstand me. My previous post was not very well written and I was referring to what the author had said about people bending forward and picking things up, and she actually was not referring to doing that from a sitting position. It’s apparently common for people to hurt themselves by lifting incorrectly, from the waist with the back rounded. The correct way to lift is with the legs and the back straight.
You are right to say that the curvature in the lower back is a matter of good posture. I’ve found it essential to maintain the curvature when doing forward bends in yoga, in order to avoid hurting my recovering back . I also believe it helps me to bend farther.
It actually was a very good point that you brought up about when the most stress is placed on the disc. For a month after my surgery, I was told not to sit in an upright position for more than thirty minutes at a time, because that was when the most weight was placed on the disc, more than when walking. It does seem reasonable though, that there would be less stress doing a sitting forward bend than when bending forward from a chair and picking something up. Please correct me if I’m wrong but I think the point was made that doing hanging forward bends while standing actually relieves the weight on the disc and helps the spine to decompress.
I think the trick lies in how you do the forward bend. I have noticed several people,including those who have been practicing asanas for some time, bending by using the back muscles to deepen the bend and touch thier nose to the knees ( sitting -paschimotansana and standing padahastasnaa). The act of tensing the muscles in the back while doing the asanas could damage the back muscles.
The correct way is to let the back fold with its own weight while doing either of the asanas. The back muscles would be as far as possible in a state of relaxation and the weight of the upper body should be the force taking the body into the bend.
[QUOTE=CityMonk;46196]Yoga Journal published an article on lower back pain. This is extraction from the article that make me think that forward bending is dangerous for healthy people. "… disc damage is just as frequently caused by the smaller but repetitious forward-bending movements … "
(entire article can be found on http://www.yogajournal.com/health/125?page=2)[/QUOTE]
Good article. As a teacher and someone who has 2 herniated disc’s I am very specific and hands on when teaching forward bends. I always have new students do the 90 degree test with each of their legs to assess hamstring flexibility. Those that have limited flexibility are given modifications. I have my students put their hands on my hips while I’m seated in paschimottanasana. I begin to forward bend using my back and not moving my hips which is the wrong way. I then move my hips with my torso, the correct way, again with their hands on my hips. I then have them do the same themselves and ask them to stop when the hips stop moving. They are usually quite surprised how quickly their hips stop moving. When the hips stop moving, they stop. It is only when the pelvis stops moving that they should allow the back to round gently, moving the ribs in toward the spine. Never before! If they are greatly limited I always have them sit on a blanket or pillow to give the pelvis a head start in coming forward. And I always tell my students to “lighten the load” meaning not to firmly press their bottom into the mat, grounding the pelvis. I often times will use a yard stick and measure them and continue measuring to show them their progress. It is quite helpful.
I also instruct my students to not bend their knees during uttanasana. Keeping the knees bent will never lengthen the hamstrings. I give them a block to rest their hands. In prep for uttanasana, I have them do a series of 1/2 forward folds having them pay particular attention to their hips/posture. I usually have them, in the beginning, stand in front of a mirror and ask them to bend forward and look at themselves. Then I assist them in correcting it and ask them to move slowly and then look. In the beginning, they always stick their bum out and begin rounding the back too soon. It is now such a joy to see how diligent my students are in their forward and seated bends and the strides they’ve made.
Forward bends are good if taught correctly and methodically. Know your starting point and measure your progress. It is a wonderful sight, as a teacher, to see my students paying such close attention and not rushing into forward bends. It does take time, but is so beneficial to have them actually see and feel both the wrong and right way and to also measure their progress.
Speaking as someone who was once the owner of bulging disks which have become degenerative disk issues I can say that if my back is hurting that a forward bend will make it worse. If my back is not hurting, and I am doing my sit-ups (which I also cannot do if my back is hurting) a forward bend, if done properly from the hips more than the spine and not forced helps me a lot. But over the years I have noticed various signs my body gives me that I better listen to or it WILL make itself heard, that let me know when I should not do certain exercises, stretches or movements.
Hello CityMonk,
Responding to your original (two) post(s)…
Improper forward bending heaps on to our pile as we have chosen to live in forward bending - driving, keyboarding, picking things off the floor, washing dishes, gardening, the list is extensive.
When forward bending is not done correctly (or when it is over done) then there are greater risks. As the front body is closed down the discs are “pressured” to ooze toward the back body, the spinal canal, pain, and bulging. Most disc issues occur in a forward bending action of the spine. Again, if we lived in backbend we’d likely have the opposite problem.
In asana there are a few postures where the spine is “rounded”. However, generally speaking, proper forward bending comes from a movement in the pelvis rather than a movement in the spine. And this is why there are statements about maintaining a neutral spine in forward bends. And of course there are no absolutes. But we are working toward a certain integrity in the pose even though we are not there yet AND may not be there in this lifetime.
When a person has lower back pain, forward bends are ill-advised (read: contraindicated). But forward bends certainly do play an important role in an asana practice which may ultimately balance certain students - though not all. So they are modified to fit the nature of the student.
Because the integrity (read: appropriate balance between safety and effect) of forward bends depends on mobility in the pelvis AND that mobility relies in part on hamstrings, standing forward bends are a better “start”. Why? Because seated forward bends trap the legs and limit the “out” for the student, while standing forward bends provide a latitude (read: knee flexion) for escape, release, backing off. It is also more difficult to mobilize the pelvis in seated postures since it is often stuck to a mat, the ground or what have you…unless you are practicing on ice.
Obviously a muscle has an origin and an insertion (read: two points where it attaches). Ergo moving one point away from the other is stretching the muscle. When the origin is held in place and the insertion moves OR when the insertion is held in place and the origin moves, these both lengthen the muscle. So it is anatomically “true” that when the knees are bent BUT straightening and the sitting bones are held in place OR when the knees are bent (held in place) and the sitting bones are lifting, both of these actions stretch the hamstrings. It is rare indeed to have a “never” or an “always” in yoga but it is pretty clear that when a muscle is attached and one point moves away from the other stretching occurs
When a person has lower back pain, forward bends are ill-advised (read: contraindicated). But forward bends certainly do play an important role in an asana practice which may ultimately balance certain students - though not all. So they are modified to fit the nature of the student.
The McKenzie Institute recommends that people with lower back problems should be pain free for a month before attempting forward bends. Their recommendations are targeted specifically to herniated or bulging disc problems and sciatic pain. Until you are pain free their anecdote is a variation of cobra posture.
[QUOTE=Asuri;46223]City Monk, I speak from the experience of one who suffered a severe ruptured disk, lower back L4-L5, which required surgery and a long recovery period. I still have nerve damage as a result, but other than that I’ve been able to recover almost fully, and yoga has been instrumental in that. There were times when I could barely tie my shoes, but I can now do Uttanasana with hands nearly flat on the floor (can’t touch head to knees yet).
I think people should pay very careful attention to this article, for example:
Also note that the author is most concerned about [I]sitting[/I] forward bends.
When I was injured I learned about the key importance of the lordosis or curvature in the lower back. I’m really self-taught as a yogi, but I think instructors will agree that it is important to maintain that curvature in the lower back for as long as possible when doing forward bends. I think that when doing forward bends, most people will instinctively tend to round the lower back. That is where you may cause yourself some problems.
Also I think it is important to balance forward bends with back bends. That is one of th reasons I like surya namaskar, because it is a nice combination of forward and back bends.[/QUOTE]
Asuri, thank you for sharing your experience! Good to see you here, and enjoy your Holidays and have a prosperous new year.
I asked my GNP about the confusing debate on forward bends. She told me that concerning the spine it is not the forward bend that is dangereous, it is the coming back up that can cause fractures. The more slowly you come up, the safer you are. Moreover, in crossref I find that the up action should be through the hips, beginning with planting your feet. I want to add also that in learning uttanasana my sister pulled her hamstring… so I like Hatha warm-ups before attempting straight leg uttanasana.:eek:
I asked my GNP about the confusing debate on forward bends. She told me that concerning the spine it is not the forward bend that is dangereous, it is the coming back up that can cause fractures. The more slowly you come up, the safer you are. Moreover, in crossref I find that the up action should be through the hips, beginning with planting your feet. I want to add also that in learning uttanasana my sister pulled her hamstring… so I like Hatha warm-ups before attempting straight leg uttanasana.:eek:
@ City Monk
Thank you, that’s nice to hear. Happy new year and many happy returns!
Dear CityMonk, - I dont agree with that Yoga journal. I have two herniated discs. I had a herniated disc surgery on one of them. I swim a lot and do yoga too. I do forward bending and “lengthen” exercises which only help me to feel better.
But I do all the exercises above after I swim about 2 klm in swimming pool. I start that kind of activity after my recovery period (10 months after surgery).
Just a little tease from the work
The Stark Reality of Stretching
Re: Standing Forward Bends
"This will cause tearing, weakening, and lengthening of the posterior longitudinal ligament that stabilizes the spinal vertebrae and spinal disk. As this ligament weakens over a period of years, the instability can lead to hypermobility of the spine and secondary damage such as a herniated disk.
“[B]The damage to these ligament structures is insidious, cumulative, and permanent. The resulting spine and sciatic nerve problems may not be symptomatic until years after the initial damage began[/B].”