Have I reached a dead end?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#21

Hi charliedharma,

Q Mr Iyengar did have teacher , perhaps one of the greatest of recent years in fact , certainly one of the most influential , T Krishnamacharya , His brother in law and also his Guru, He did however as you suggest in your post spend a lot of his time alone refining asana , but he always refers to Krishnamacharya as his Guru.
I’m familiar with Iyengar’s biography, and as you suggest, his guru did not teach him Asanas. Probably that’s why he got so good at them, what do you think?

Any half decent teacher will encourage you to develop your own practise , in fact going to class is more of a check up and a place to expand ones knowledge so that one can take this into one s own practise and life , or else its just a dry practise. I know of teachers who have encouraged long standing students to" get off the teat "
Sure.

Mr Iyengar himself recommends working with a teacher , he does also say a good book is better than a bad teacher.
Exactly. That’s why people who have no teacher, for whatever reason, should not be discouraged by businessmen who suggest a personal teacher would be imperative.

#22

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;56582]Hi charliedharma,

I’m familiar with Iyengar’s biography, and as you suggest, his guru did not teach him Asanas. Probably that’s why he got so good at them, what do you think?

I think that if you see the 1938 film of Mr Iyengar and T krishnamacharya among others , Mr Iyengar is pretty advanced in asana so I think K must have taught him some asana , and Im not sure where you get that K never taught him asana ,In fact he wouldnt teach him much more than asana at that time as Mr Iyengar was quite sickly. I do acknowledge it took BKS Iyengar many years to come to the understanding he has now , through his own efforts , but that seed according to Mr Iyengar was planted by his Guru.

Exactly. That’s why people who have no teacher, for whatever reason, should not be discouraged by businessmen who suggest a personal teacher would be imperative.[/QUOTE]

Again Im not sure who these businessmen are , or at least Ive never come across them , I have had many teachers and they without fail would say that self practise is where it is at but of course we will all have different experiences so acknowledge what you have come across. I live in uk but have also studied in india , this may be different in usa of course . But whatever discipline we take up a sincere and skilled teacher can be of help , but not always.
om shanti

#23

Om Namah Shivah,

Some people will never be able to do certain advanced poses no matter how hard they train, and that is not a problem. Regarding your flexibilty not improving how long are you holding asanas for?

Contrary to what many Yogis may say here there are far superior stretching methods out there and that will certainly get you there [B]faster[/B] than Yoga will.

Look up people like Pavel Tsatsouline he has book ‘Relax Into Stretch’ (and DVD’s same title & ‘Forced Relaxation’), he explains the theory very well too (nothing like Yoga theory on stretching). They will definitelty inprove your flexibilty and again far faster than Yoga can.

([B]Parts 1 - 5 of Live Seminar [/B]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcsA7XspSBs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gew1zfbnMPw&feature=related look to right for parts 3 to 5 these are clips from DVD set)

Try Yoga practice & stretching at different times of the day, and the obvious - best time to increase flexibilty with stetching is after your main workout not before when your body is not only warmest but more relaxed or fatigued slightly.

#24

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;56566]hmmm fascinating reply to me.

I don’t believe I’ve asked you to do anything other than clarify YOUR post.
It is not my place to ask students to give up asana in favor of meditation. Further it is not my place to tell students to do the same. Students who study with me, a choice they make be it conscious or not, get the four branches of Purna Yoga; Asana/Pranayama, Applied Philosophy, Lifestyle/Nutrition, and Meditation.
[/QUOTE]

I anticipated that you may ask me to give up some asanas simply because they cause strain & that may aggravate my anxiety. Which is absolutely sensible. I asked for your opinion & you are kind enough to help.

Look at it this way, some people just can’t give up smoking despite knowing that smoking can kill them. In the same way I have this tendency to do difficult asanas. I just can’t stop.

Please don’t get irritated.

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;56566]

Further, in conveying pranayama to new students I start them with only 4-5 minutes of practice per day. Of course that can build but I’m not at all comfortable with 45 minutes of pranayama practice AND that practice including the ones you’ve outlined. (see my last comment at bottom)

I want to stres that whatever works for you, viewed clearly without the veil of avidya, asmita, raga, dvesha, and abhinivesha, is correct for you and I am merely responding generally about my practice, my experience, my training, and my teaching. So take it with the appropriate grain of salt.[/QUOTE]

About doing Pranayamas for 45 mins, I have been doing this since 2008 & trust me this has immensely increased my energy levels. You won’t believe the kind of distances I can walk now. This is really working for me.

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;56566]

Obviously a sound practice of backbends can be very helpful for depression when the poses are done appropriately and in such a way as to not harm the physical body. I would avoid introspective poses like uttanasana, balasana, paschimotanasana, and janu sirsasana. Sarpasana, bhujangasana, Dhanurasana, Urdhva Dhanurasana (when the student understands the concept of keeping the shoulders “in joint”), ustrasana, and setu bandha could be helpful.

[/QUOTE]

Amongst the asanas you have asked me to avoid its only balasana which was on my chart. Okay I will replace it with some other asana

Okay I will include ustrasana, and setu bandha.

Again, don’t get irritated. I am already tensed. Remember ? :smiley:

#25

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;56575]Hi om_namah_shivay,

congratulations; can easily be a life-changing piece of paper. :smiley:

I am following the course, doing so for 16 months, but I am “only” in week 18, which is actually weeks 16-17. Every now and then I do some of the Asanas that are to come next, but I still make progress and weeks 19-21 are somewhat a break, for example no Trikonasanas anymore, and I don’t feel ready for a caesura like that.

However.

I suggest you experiment a lot with the Asanas and find out what’s good for you yourself. I tried all sorts of constellations: Doing each Asana a lot of times, only holding them for a few seconds, getting out, getting back in and so on. I did a whole sequence several times after another, which means: Do the Asana once, briefly, do the whole sequence like that, then repeat the sequence and do so 3 - 4 times. What provided me the greatest insight was actually experimenting and working with each of the Asanas, not actually seeing it as “doing the Asana”, but studying it. This includes gathering all sorts of information from any source available (as I mentioned), I got any book on Asanas from the library, bought some, watched any DVD I could find, bought some too (love anything from Dharma Mittra & Iyengar), I spent hours on the internet, YouTube, etc. etc. I would try different methods of getting in and out, was taking great care to get the alignment right and such. I would easily spend half an hour and more on just dealing with one Asana.

Today I do any Asana in the sequence only once, but I hold them for a relatively long time. I found that this works best for me, but I wouldn’t know if that’s the case for everybody. I’m not a friend of flowish styles (“Viniyasa”), I do Asanas one by one. I will hold a triangle up to five minutes, but it’s not perfectly static, I move a bit when I feel like, bend a knee, straighten it again, take an arm down, move my concentration to different points, etc. etc.

Bottom line: Work with the Asanas yourself. Don’t rely on what people say about them. Just be very care- and mindful so you don’t hurt yourself.
[/QUOTE]

I guess three sets for each asana is what suits me best. So I will do three sets of all asanas mentioned in the book.

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;56575]

By the way: I have no teacher as well, never had one, no teacher ever saw me doing an Asana. Yet, I never hurt myself, my progress is simply awesome. I’m around 40 years old and literally healed several problems I had before I started, most notably a “bad knee”, that, when I started, made a nasty crackling sound when I just bent the knee. I could kneel for a few seconds with great pain, not stand up without support. Today I kneel for 15 minutes and meditate there, I do squats with my son piggy-back. And a handful of other things.
[/QUOTE]

Even I have similar experiences. I used suffer from bronchitis & now its almost gone. Even my doc was surprised !!! He couldn’t resist asking me "how did you do that?"
That’s why I say Yoga is life.

[QUOTE=Quetzalcoatl;56575]

On the psychological problems you mention: Depression and anxiety have a cause. Find out that cause, in case you’re not already fully aware of it. That cause causes a conflict, because something about it isn’t resolved. You have to resolve that specific thing and have to come to terms with it. I’m perfectly sure that each and any part of Yoga can be of assistence, for example will great progress in doing Asanas give you confidence and a good feeling about yourself. Mind-related practiceses, like meditation, concentration and breathing, will give you more control over you thoughts and emotions, it will relax your mind and calm it down, which again makes … everything easier. You achieve good things, that makes you feel good and strong. It indeed does make you strong/er, not just feel strong. But in the end it’s those individual causes that you have to deal with, and that you - if you ask me - not do with some people on some forum. I suggest you start talking about these things with people you trust and if you have noone that you can trust, find a therapeut, meet her or him, see if you can trust them, and if you do, work with them. This can be difficult, because you might have to visit a lot of therapists to find one you do trust - it’s quite personal. But don’t think that you just have to perform some posture or mental concentration or breathing technique and those problems will go away. They won’t, they have to be dealt with directly.

Be smart![/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree that depression & anxiety have cause but people get depressed when they can’t do anything concrete about those problem because they are not entirely within their control.

For example, a person can get depressed if he or she can’t get a job. But rate of employment is a state subject. If you live in a country with poor job opportunities, then what? Yo can’t change that. Even you therapist can’t help you with it. What a therapist can do is tell us how to cope with that frustration. I don’t expect my anxiety to go away completely with yoga. What I intend is to restrict it to a manageable state.

Again, thanks for suggesting that awesome book.

#26

[QUOTE=MindNinja;56586]Om Namah Shivah,
Regarding your flexibilty not improving how long are you holding asanas for?
[/QUOTE]

20 secs each. What do you suggest?

I will surely visit the links you have provided. Thanks.

#27

[QUOTE=om_namah_shivay;56562]Okay, the kind of work I do, its not that time consuming. So besides doing asanas & pranayama I can do some meditation too. Its not like I haven’t tried. Since I don’t know any specific technique of meditation, what I did was I tried “not to think of anything” and sit quietly in padmasana. But no matter how much I try this seems impossible. It will be helpful if you can suggest me a specific technique.

Hi Gordon,

Although I have mentioned in my first post about my history of depression, anxiety & panic attacks, what I deliberately didn’t mention is the fact that I am presently facing severe anxiety disorder. Its even difficult to get out from my house:cry: I can’t maintain eye contact with people.
Because I created this thread to take asana practice to an advance level it felt weird to mention all this.

[B]I don’t want to give up asanas & follow a meditation only routine. Please don’t ask me to do that. [/B]

What do you suggest ?[/QUOTE]

There really is no magic technique that I have used. Remember it will not happen in a day. Start slow, start with simply a 5 minute meditation of no thoughts. then build from there.

A good technique that I have used to help get rid of excessive brain chatter is not yoga or taught by any yogi’s I know of is Qi-gong breathing. This technique cleanses the brain.

I use standing meditation stand with feet shoulder width apart inner arches of feet pressed to the floor your feet being as connected as possible to the ground knees slightly bent back straight but not stiff and relax into the pose try to sink into it. Bring your arms palms down and float them around the front of your waste. Hold this for 5 minutes to start.

then visualize your breath going from the bottom of your spine or coccyx rising up your spine and going into your brain as a white mist, hold the breath in your brain and visualize it going through each ventricle tubule brain compartment and then breath it out as a dirty brown smog. Repeat for 5 minutes. Try not to focus on the time but more the breath each breath should be 4-8 seconds in 4-8 seconds out. So if you do 100 breaths your well over 5 minutes. I do 20 minutes daily try 5 in the morning hen 5 at night and build until you feel comfortable doing 20 minutes

#28

@om_namah_shivay
Not irritated whatsoever.
Thank you for your concern.
I completely understand.

Gordon

#29

[QUOTE=handsofeye;56643]There really is no magic technique that I have used. Remember it will not happen in a day. Start slow, start with simply a 5 minute meditation of no thoughts. then build from there.

A good technique that I have used to help get rid of excessive brain chatter is not yoga or taught by any yogi’s I know of is Qi-gong breathing. This technique cleanses the brain.

I use standing meditation stand with feet shoulder width apart inner arches of feet pressed to the floor your feet being as connected as possible to the ground knees slightly bent back straight but not stiff and relax into the pose try to sink into it. Bring your arms palms down and float them around the front of your waste. Hold this for 5 minutes to start.

then visualize your breath going from the bottom of your spine or coccyx rising up your spine and going into your brain as a white mist, hold the breath in your brain and visualize it going through each ventricle tubule brain compartment and then breath it out as a dirty brown smog. Repeat for 5 minutes. Try not to focus on the time but more the breath each breath should be 4-8 seconds in 4-8 seconds out. So if you do 100 breaths your well over 5 minutes. I do 20 minutes daily try 5 in the morning hen 5 at night and build until you feel comfortable doing 20 minutes[/QUOTE]

Okay I will start doing it for five mins.

Lets hope it works. Thanks.

#30

Hi charliedharma,

[quote]Exactly. That’s why people who have no teacher, for whatever reason, should not be discouraged by businessmen who suggest a personal teacher would be imperative.

Again Im not sure who these businessmen are , or at least Ive never come across them ,[/quote]no no, you disagree with me on who “they” are, or more precisely, you disagree that InnerAthlete is one. Your opinion has been noted. Any argument to change my opinion you have not presented.

I have had many teachers and they without fail would say that self practise is where it is at but of course we will all have different experiences so acknowledge what you have come across. I live in uk but have also studied in india , this may be different in usa of course . But whatever discipline we take up a sincere and skilled teacher can be of help , but not always.
Sure. I had already noted that in my first post in this thread. Dude. Sure I don’t say “omg don’t ever have a teacher”. That would be stupid. As stupid as it is to say or imply that having no teacher should be a reason not to do Asanas or Pranayama or meditation or read the Sutras and practice Yama and Niyama. That would be stupid, charliedharma, wouldn’t it? And if one does that but is not stupid, yet would profit from people believing having a teacher to do some forward bend and lie in Shavasana would be imperative, would that be even worse? Because it would be calculating and selfish and hindering people to improve?

Please resepond.

And what about that other question I had: Could it be possible and isn’t it probable, that Iyengar got so good because he had not teacher who told him “all” about Asanas, but spend hours over hours studying themselves, from scratch? What do you think? And don’t get me wrong: Sure not everyone who studies without a teacher will turn out as an Iyengar, that also needs both a lot of intelligence and talent for the method. Yet it is a point that when you’re on your own and have to figure out everything by yourself, you’re more likely to get to a deeper understand than when you are just following what some teacher says. Isn’t that so?

By the way: My sound advice and opinion is free. Awesome, isn’t it. :smiley:

#31

Hi om_namah_shivay,

[quote]Work with the Asanas yourself. Don’t rely on what people say about them. Just be very care- and mindful so you don’t hurt yourself.

I guess three sets for each asana is what suits me best. So I will do three sets of all asanas mentioned in the book.[/quote]please allow me to be insistend: Don’t guess. Find out. Be smart!

[quote]By the way: I have no teacher as well, never had one, no teacher ever saw me doing an Asana. Yet, I never hurt myself, my progress is simply awesome. I’m around 40 years old and literally healed several problems I had before I started, most notably a “bad knee”, that, when I started, made a nasty crackling sound when I just bent the knee. I could kneel for a few seconds with great pain, not stand up without support. Today I kneel for 15 minutes and meditate there, I do squats with my son piggy-back. And a handful of other things.

Even I have similar experiences. I used suffer from bronchitis & now its almost gone. Even my doc was surprised !!! He couldn’t resist asking me "how did you do that?"
That’s why I say Yoga is life. [/quote]Exactly! And that’s precisely the point when I suggest to be smart instead of just doing as you’re told. You said in another post you would give up Balasana: Why? You said you’d include Ustrasana and Setu Bandha: Why? Do you think it’s sound to do that? Could you explain why you do that? I think not.

Be smart, don’t simply trust others.

[quote]On the psychological problems you mention: Depression and anxiety have a cause. Find out that cause, in case you’re not already fully aware of it. That cause causes a conflict, because something about it isn’t resolved. You have to resolve that specific thing and have to come to terms with it.

…
Yes, I agree that depression & anxiety have cause but people get depressed when they can’t do anything concrete about those problem because they are not entirely within their control.

For example, a person can get depressed if he or she can’t get a job. But rate of employment is a state subject. If you live in a country with poor job opportunities, then what? Yo can’t change that. Even you therapist can’t help you with it. What a therapist can do is tell us how to cope with that frustration. I don’t expect my anxiety to go away completely with yoga. What I intend is to restrict it to a manageable state.[/quote]I might not have made it clear enough: You cannot change the cause. But the actual problem is not the cause, but that conflict it causes. The cause is unchangable, unless it is an illusion, for example when you falsly think you hurt someone and feel guilty, while actually you didn’t. But if the cause does exist, obviously it will never go away.

The point is the conflict that is caused by the cause. You give the example of being out of work due to the econimic situation. That cause causes depression, because it might cause a conflict like “I am useless, while I want to be usefull” and/or “I’m afraid that I will never be working again/I am afraid that I will loose my new job soon too”. Resolving these conflicts is what has to be done to overcome depression and anxiety. For example could you do charitable work and be usefull for the society that way. Or you could reflect on why you want to be working/usefull anyway. Maybe it depresses you that you have not so much money anymore, here you could reflect on if you really need all that money anyway, if it isn’t enough to be alive, healty, free, do Yoga, enjoy the day. Etc. etc. Some conflicts are very hard to resolve, for example when one made a serious mistake, and even on purpose, because they didn’t realise how bad it is at that time. In that case one has to learn to accept one’s own imperfection and find ways to make up for what has been done. For example when someone killed a child in a car-accident because they were drunk. There is no re-animating that child. But one can quit drinking and start or participate in a campaign or organisation against these things happening. For example; etc. etc. as usual.

Yoga can (“only”) assist, you can’t breathe a depression away, well, maybe the mental and physical effects of a momentary attack. But with an overall calm/er mind, you can see things more clearly, deal with them more objectively and therefore resolve the cause of your problems sooner, quicker, easier (= that conflict, caused by an unchangable cause). So just do “regular” Yoga instead of looking for a particular exercise to resolve a particular problem. Following the eight limbs would be a good idea, if you ask me. Giving up some specific Asana and practicing another one: Whoever tells you such nonsense has no idea what he’s talking about. That’s hilarious, politely spoken, coming from some poser who wants to pretend he knew stuff.