Surya Deva, I have checked the links you posted. All of them are absolute bogus. Can you please provide [B]reputable[/B] links? For example, I don’t want to hear about a war between India and China from a website claiming Israelis concocted the plans for 9-11.
You obviously haven’t Neitzsche. Otherwise you would not be saying that.
I will respond to your other post in due course.
EDIT: I never take “I need a reputable source” fallacy seriously. This is a form of knowledge filtration
practiced by people to simply deny information. Indra Deva used it recently when I posted from Hindu-Wisdom.com,
even though the information was actually a compilation of citations from scholarly literature. All information one gets
from whatever source, needs to be tested, rather than dismissed of-hand.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49928]You obviously haven’t Neitzsche. Otherwise you would not be saying that.
I will respond to your other post in due course.[/QUOTE]
Oh but I have. The first one actually showed some promise but then degenerated into far-fetched extrapolations of a world wide power struggle using antiquated Cold War references and fantasies of a Western and “Periphery” hegemony. I honestly thought the author had read too much of the “Ender’s Game” series of books. The rest of them are merely opinion articles with little citation, facts, and statistics. One of them was even an obvious Pakistani propaganda site. I knew that the moment I saw “pak” in the URL. Did you honestly expect me to believe any article on a website claiming Israelis plotted the 9-11 attacks?
I know you can do better than that. Please cite reputable sources, preferably written by figures of authority, renown, and credibility.
EDIT: A website like Hindu Wisdom does not qualify as propaganda or an unreliable source. It is merely a website dedicated to teaching others about Hinduism. There is no reason to dismiss that as false since those matters are by very nature subjective. Besides, who else can you expect to teach Hinduism the best, other than those who are already Hindus? Indra Deva is a fool so it is not surprising he would do something like that. But these are objective matters we speak of, whether China will invade India or not. Therefore, we need equally objective sources, analyzing all points of view and all angles, citing reputable sources and giving accurate statistics. I don’t need obvious propaganda sites, preying upon sentimentalism and misrepresentations to elicit a desired response, or articles written by the common man.
I am afraid here you are doing exactly the same thing ID did. You are dismissing not just the think tank I just posted(first link) you are dismissing every other article I cited above, including one from Times of India on that pretext.
Information is information. It must be tested to see if it is valid. Not testing information, just because you don’t like the source
is dishonest.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49938]I am afraid here you are doing exactly the same thing ID did. You are dismissing not just the think tank I just posted(first link) you are dismissing every other article I cited above, including one from Times of India on that pretext.
Information is information. It must be tested to see if it is valid. Not testing information, just because you don’t like the source
is dishonest.[/QUOTE]
Information can also come in varieties. At the very least, there is good information and bad information. And rather than test to see whether this is true of any given information, we have certain criterion so as to enable the critical thinker to not waste their time. Take for example, the anti-Indian, anti-Israeli, and anti-American site you posted a link to. Because this site has very propaganda-like leanings and since propaganda always contains 1% fact and 99% trolling, we can safely repudiate the source in a heartbeat.
Again, you have not looked at the information above. Not all the links above are from the web sites you are refusing to look at. Here they are:
http://www.examiner.com/ny-in-new-york/india-is-preparing-for-possible-war-with-china-and-pakistan
http://newsflavor.com/opinions/china-preparing-for-a-war-against-india-and-us/
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Indian+ex-defense+chief+accuses+China+of+preparing+for+war.-a0242100866
Here are even more links that you could have found very easily by following the lead I gave you and doing a simple google search:
http://www.easenews.net/china-wary-of-indias-long-range-missile-agni-v
http://www.hindustantimes.com/China-wary-of-India-US-report/Article1-588289.aspx
http://www.timesnow.tv/Chinese-tourists-or-spies/articleshow/4363180.cms
Is China now where Germany was in 1900? Possibly. There are certainly hints of menace from some quarters in Beijing. Defence minister Liang Guanglie said over New Year that China’s armed forces are “pushing forward preparations for military conflict in every strategic direction”.
Professor Huang Jing from Singapore’s Lee Kwan Yew School and a former adviser to China’s Army, said Beijing is losing its grip on the colonels.
Watch on youtube:
Indian military predict war with China by 2017:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Indian-Army-fears-attack-from-China-by-2017/Article1-393140.aspx
I will be very disappointed if you continue to ignore and/or downplay this information.
This is an alarming development of events. I will summarize exactly what is happening
- China has recently conducted mass military exercises by mobilizing troops on the Indian border
- China has intruded several kilometres into Indian territory, forcing the natives out by telling them it is their land and painting rocks with red Chinese letters stating it is their land. China denies it officially.
- China has sent warships deep into Indian ocean as far as Cochin and helicopters into Indian air space recently. The first was called "a surprise good will visit" the second occurence was denied.
- China has spent spies into India to photograph key military installations
- China's state controlled media is now full of anti-India rheotric. Warmongering articles have been published saying China
- Chinese media is stepping up the anti-India rhetoric. Reports include a report by a warmongering Chinese colonel who calls for splitting up India into pieces.
- Indian military predicts a war with China by 2017
8 ) Former Indian defence minister accuses China of advanced war preparations against India - Chinese defence minister says China is preparing for war in all directions in the next 5 years.
- US intelligence reveals China sees India as a huge threat to its superpower ambitions. Indian military power will more than double in the next 5 years, China wants to curb its rise.
It is clear as day light China is preparing for war with India. The war preparations are brewing as we speak. This will be no ordinary war and nor will it be regional - this is going to spiral out to all directions. We are seeing the formative stages of WWIII unfolding right before our eyes.
- China’s state controlled media is now full of anti-India rheotric. Warmongering articles have been published saying China
- Chinese media is stepping up the anti-India rhetoric. Reports include a report by a warmongering Chinese colonel who calls for splitting up India into pieces.
Sorry there is a typo here. This is suppose to be one item.
Western society certainly has a high rate of crime, immorality, divorce, ignorance. But there is another pole you are missing which contributes to the dialectic which enables progress. Ever since the age of enlightenment there have been two poles in Western society: capitalists and materialists campainging for more science and technology to maximise production, efficiency and profit, and transcedentalists and romantics, campaigning for more human sciences, literature, poetry, and social upliftment(civil, human, animal, gay, women rights) This has enabled Western society to graduallly progress. This is why, for all its faults, the West is the most developed society in the world today. Here people do not spit and urinate on roats, defeace on the street, get of moving buses and tourists here do not get hassled on the street by touts. Here if somebody is lying cripped on the street they are offered help. Here women have a voice and in fact studies show girls are doing better than boys in school and college. Here, many pressure groups exist that weigh in on unfair social policies. The democratic and open society fosters debate on every issue. I am sorry but having been both in India and the US and even lived in India for 6 months, there is no doubt about it the West is more civilised. This of course reflects in statistics as well showing the human development index to be significantly higher in the West than in India. These are facts, you simply have to face about the West vis-a-vis India today.
You still are using the term race. You really do see Indians as a unique race don’t you? I have already only know of one race: human race. It is a shame, really it is, that you do not identify as a human first and see humanity as your wider family and the world as your wider home.
What potential for spirituality are you talking about with rapidly developing countries? China? China is predomiantly atheist and atheism is promoted by the government. Its religious and spiritual groups were mostly destroyed in the Cultural revolutions by Mao. Recently, the Falung Gong spiritual group was hunted down by the government. China has some of the worst human rights records in the world, treats its own citizens(especially in rural areas) like sh*it, censors freedom of speech, threatens all its neighbours and is rapidly destroying its ecosystems by raping its resources. You look a bit riduclous when you criticise the West so vehemently and then say good things about China. The irony is China is the biggest threat to India in the world today, not the West. In fact India and the West are allies.
You keep saying that you are from a very rich family in Hyderabad and then claim you have representative knowledge of Indians in India. I really don’t think you appreciate how hard life is for the majority of Indians. I have both rich and poor relatives in India. I have seen how difficult it is for the poor to make ends meet, how hard they have to work. My aunty who is poor had to save up to buy herself a new pair of shoes. But she would actually qualify for lower middle class. The 70% of Indians who live on under 2 dollars a day face even more struggle.
Yes, the affluence of a section of society in India is definitely increasing and by 2020 50% of Indian society will be part of the middle class. It will basically be like how Western society is today - a mass consumerist society. Not a spiritual society.
Remember in the West spirituality is not synonymous with Hinduism and India. In the West spirituality refers to the new-age movement consisting of a mixture of world traditions old and new: reiki, yoga, vedanta, buddhism, gnosticism, qigong, transpersonal psychology, quantum physics, wicca, shamanism, self-help gurus, aliens and ufos, angels and ascended masters. This is why they are woefully ignorant of Hinduism and India. Now rather than complain about it, which will just waste your energy, you can educate them about Hinduism. But you need to take India out of the equation. Sure, pay hommage to the country for being the birth place and preserver of this enlightened religion, but it ends there. Like I said Hinduism is bigger than India. It is time Hinduism goes global.
When civilizations reach their climax, they tend to decline in every way possible. It happened with China, Rome, India, Greece, and so forth. The West is no exception.
Time is more like a spiral. You get cycles with the rise and fall of civilisation, but the next cycle is a progression over the last cycle. What happened after Rome rose and fell in the West? The rise of the enlightenment in Euroipe. What will happen after the rise and fall of India? The rise of spirituality in the world.
You say the fact there are so many civil and humanist movements in the West is an indication of how tumultuous Western society is. But my point is - at least it has them.
To pretend Indian modern society is better than Western society is to lie to yourself: women are still seen as inferior to men and expected to be housewives; dowry practices and dowry violence is endemic; caste discrimination is common; corruption is rampant; every state has a seccession movement and terrorist attacks occur daily all over the country. Inequality is rampant. Considering all these ills in Indian society there should be more civil and humanist movements -but they are few and far between.
I do not believe that I am being whimsical by saying that we should now insist on a global identity and abandon nationalism. I am simply saying it as it is today: globalization is a fact of todays world. National identites are crumblinmg and a new world order is emerging. If you want to contribute, then contribute to this process. Help globalization by Indianizing it. One must always move with the times or risk being left behind.
At this time, no repudiation of capitalism is possible. Even its opponents agree that capitalism is beneficial for economic growth.
Communism is not the only solution to capitalism. Capitalism is the best known system we have today, but it does not mean it is the only solutions. There are other solutions possible such as the varna-ashrama system. Capitalism does not lead to a sustainable future. The West is a prime example of what capitalism leads to. Why should capitalism be succesfull in India or China, if it was not succesful in the West? Any economic system which is based on exploitation cannot be good for society. India’s current development is no different to what America went through a few decades ago. It will take another 30 years before India is at America’s level today and it too then will experience an economic, social, moral and philosophical meltdown. But we now passed the stage of nation states in the evolution of human history. Were now living in a globalized world. We now have to think like global citizens.
If this spiritual revolution comes, which I highly doubt, the winners would be starting from a state of economic and societal squalor and will ultimately fail. I would rather be associated with the developing countries that, like the new moon, have much potential to enlarge and grow (and will have in the event that such a revolution happens).
Why would you prefer to be associated with developing countries rather than developed countries? Neitzsche – are you currently studying in the US?
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50026]Again, you have not looked at the information above. Not all the links above are from the web sites you are refusing to look at. Here they are:
http://www.examiner.com/ny-in-new-york/india-is-preparing-for-possible-war-with-china-and-pakistan
http://newsflavor.com/opinions/china-preparing-for-a-war-against-india-and-us/
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Indian+ex-defense+chief+accuses+China+of+preparing+for+war.-a0242100866
Here are even more links that you could have found very easily by following the lead I gave you and doing a simple google search:
http://www.easenews.net/china-wary-of-indias-long-range-missile-agni-v
http://www.hindustantimes.com/China-wary-of-India-US-report/Article1-588289.aspx
http://www.timesnow.tv/Chinese-tourists-or-spies/articleshow/4363180.cms
Watch on youtube:
Indian military predict war with China by 2017:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Indian-Army-fears-attack-from-China-by-2017/Article1-393140.aspx
I will be very disappointed if you continue to ignore and/or downplay this information.
This is an alarming development of events. I will summarize exactly what is happening
- China has recently conducted mass military exercises by mobilizing troops on the Indian border
- China has intruded several kilometres into Indian territory, forcing the natives out by telling them it is their land and painting rocks with red Chinese letters stating it is their land. China denies it officially.
- China has sent warships deep into Indian ocean as far as Cochin and helicopters into Indian air space recently. The first was called "a surprise good will visit" the second occurence was denied.
- China has spent spies into India to photograph key military installations
- China's state controlled media is now full of anti-India rheotric. Warmongering articles have been published saying China
- Chinese media is stepping up the anti-India rhetoric. Reports include a report by a warmongering Chinese colonel who calls for splitting up India into pieces.
- Indian military predicts a war with China by 2017
8 ) Former Indian defence minister accuses China of advanced war preparations against India - Chinese defence minister says China is preparing for war in all directions in the next 5 years.
- US intelligence reveals China sees India as a huge threat to its superpower ambitions. Indian military power will more than double in the next 5 years, China wants to curb its rise.
It is clear as day light China is preparing for war with India. The war preparations are brewing as we speak. This will be no ordinary war and nor will it be regional - this is going to spiral out to all directions. We are seeing the formative stages of WWIII unfolding right before our eyes.[/QUOTE]
These look more promising. I will certainly look at them when I have the time later on this week.
Yes, I am currently studying in the U.S. I assure you, the environment is quite depressing. Today, someone asked me, "Are you Hindi? You don't eat pork right?" :lol:
Will respond in due time.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50044]Western society certainly has a high rate of crime, immorality, divorce, ignorance. But there is another pole you are missing which contributes to the dialectic which enables progress. Ever since the age of enlightenment there have been two poles in Western society: capitalists and materialists campainging for more science and technology to maximise production, efficiency and profit, and transcedentalists and romantics, campaigning for more human sciences, literature, poetry, and social upliftment(civil, human, animal, gay, women rights) This has enabled Western society to graduallly progress. This is why, for all its faults, the West is the most developed society in the world today. Here people do not spit and urinate on roats, defeace on the street, get of moving buses and tourists here do not get hassled on the street by touts. Here if somebody is lying cripped on the street they are offered help. Here women have a voice and in fact studies show girls are doing better than boys in school and college. Here, many pressure groups exist that weigh in on unfair social policies. The democratic and open society fosters debate on every issue. I am sorry but having been both in India and the US and even lived in India for 6 months, there is no doubt about it the West is more civilised. This of course reflects in statistics as well showing the human development index to be significantly higher in the West than in India. These are facts, you simply have to face about the West vis-a-vis India today.
You still are using the term race. You really do see Indians as a unique race don’t you? I have already only know of one race: human race. It is a shame, really it is, that you do not identify as a human first and see humanity as your wider family and the world as your wider home.
What potential for spirituality are you talking about with rapidly developing countries? China? China is predomiantly atheist and atheism is promoted by the government. Its religious and spiritual groups were mostly destroyed in the Cultural revolutions by Mao. Recently, the Falung Gong spiritual group was hunted down by the government. China has some of the worst human rights records in the world, treats its own citizens(especially in rural areas) like sh*it, censors freedom of speech, threatens all its neighbours and is rapidly destroying its ecosystems by raping its resources. You look a bit riduclous when you criticise the West so vehemently and then say good things about China. The irony is China is the biggest threat to India in the world today, not the West. In fact India and the West are allies.
You keep saying that you are from a very rich family in Hyderabad and then claim you have representative knowledge of Indians in India. I really don’t think you appreciate how hard life is for the majority of Indians. I have both rich and poor relatives in India. I have seen how difficult it is for the poor to make ends meet, how hard they have to work. My aunty who is poor had to save up to buy herself a new pair of shoes. But she would actually qualify for lower middle class. The 70% of Indians who live on under 2 dollars a day face even more struggle.
Yes, the affluence of a section of society in India is definitely increasing and by 2020 50% of Indian society will be part of the middle class. It will basically be like how Western society is today - a mass consumerist society. Not a spiritual society.
Remember in the West spirituality is not synonymous with Hinduism and India. In the West spirituality refers to the new-age movement consisting of a mixture of world traditions old and new: reiki, yoga, vedanta, buddhism, gnosticism, qigong, transpersonal psychology, quantum physics, wicca, shamanism, self-help gurus, aliens and ufos, angels and ascended masters. This is why they are woefully ignorant of Hinduism and India. Now rather than complain about it, which will just waste your energy, you can educate them about Hinduism. But you need to take India out of the equation. Sure, pay hommage to the country for being the birth place and preserver of this enlightened religion, but it ends there. Like I said Hinduism is bigger than India. It is time Hinduism goes global.
Time is more like a spiral. You get cycles with the rise and fall of civilisation, but the next cycle is a progression over the last cycle. What happened after Rome rose and fell in the West? The rise of the enlightenment in Euroipe. What will happen after the rise and fall of India? The rise of spirituality in the world.
You say the fact there are so many civil and humanist movements in the West is an indication of how tumultuous Western society is. But my point is - at least it has them.
To pretend Indian modern society is better than Western society is to lie to yourself: women are still seen as inferior to men and expected to be housewives; dowry practices and dowry violence is endemic; caste discrimination is common; corruption is rampant; every state has a seccession movement and terrorist attacks occur daily all over the country. Inequality is rampant. Considering all these ills in Indian society there should be more civil and humanist movements -but they are few and far between.
I do not believe that I am being whimsical by saying that we should now insist on a global identity and abandon nationalism. I am simply saying it as it is today: globalization is a fact of todays world. National identites are crumblinmg and a new world order is emerging. If you want to contribute, then contribute to this process. Help globalization by Indianizing it. One must always move with the times or risk being left behind.
Communism is not the only solution to capitalism. Capitalism is the best known system we have today, but it does not mean it is the only solutions. There are other solutions possible such as the varna-ashrama system. Capitalism does not lead to a sustainable future. The West is a prime example of what capitalism leads to. Why should capitalism be succesfull in India or China, if it was not succesful in the West? Any economic system which is based on exploitation cannot be good for society. India’s current development is no different to what America went through a few decades ago. It will take another 30 years before India is at America’s level today and it too then will experience an economic, social, moral and philosophical meltdown. But we now passed the stage of nation states in the evolution of human history. Were now living in a globalized world. We now have to think like global citizens.
Why would you prefer to be associated with developing countries rather than developed countries? Neitzsche – are you currently studying in the US?[/QUOTE]
I have never said that the West is less civilized than India, at least in the nominal sense. What else do you expect? The West financed its way to the top of the world at the expense of the colonized countries. This disparity of wealth and “virtues” in the West sprouts change. In the colonized countries however, the people are too busy being raped of their lifestyles and oppressed to know that something better lies out there. So of course you will see those sorts of habits. However, you cannot deny that India is fast developing in many areas and sector. You said you lived in India for 6 months? Congratulations. I lived there for 5 years and that too before it experienced its economic boom. I may have been a young boy at the time but the memories were graphic enough to be imprinted onto my mind forever. I even witnessed people dying on the street. I even witnessed a massive street fight and the ensuing chaos, death, blood and destruction. Compared to back then, these habits are far on the decline. I only see the poor engage in those sorts of activities and even the numbers of poor are on the decline. You, like most ignorant Westerners, are using what the poor Indian does and making it seem like the epitome of Indian-ness and Hindu-ness.
And sure the “average” Indian may engage in those sorts of uncivilized activities but at least it is out of ignorance and lack of awareness. And therein, lies the difference. Whereas many in India are simply ignorant, most in the West are willfully ignorant. Whereas many in India have the potential for change and do change, many in the West do not change and cling onto misconceptions and misinformation in the way a crying baby clings onto its mother.
I accept the fact that the West is currently at the top. I also accept the fact that the West is obviously on the decline. I also accept the fact that ignorance, hatred, and other negative emotions are on the rise. I can easily see that much in the country you tout the most, the U.S.
I see Indians as a unique race in terms of religion and spirituality, just as I see the Chinese as unique in terms of their industrial capacity, and the Europeans as unique in terms of their innovative capabilities.
Why do I not see humanity as one? Because it is clearly not at this point and not because I simply refuse to see it as one. There is still a huge disparity between the races of the Earth. The whites are on the top of the food chain and the Africans and the indigenous peoples of the world on the bottom. As I said before, there can never be “human race” as long as such differences exist (and the perceptions and attitudes they may elicit). Only when every nation and “race” is on the same level of development and prosperity as each other can there be any hope of unification and amalgamation.
Wait, what are you saying? I was being sarcastic about China! When I said cough China cough, I was attempting to convey how the political and societal systems in China are NOT accommodative enough for that kind of change. I already know all this.
Actually, I do appreciate how hard life is for most Indians. My family has a history of rising from the depths of poverty and into the heights of prosperity. When my father arrived at the U.S, he only had a pair of clothes in his suitcase and now, we’re middle-upper class. My grandfather and his 4 sons used to live on 25 rupees a day in despicable conditions. Even listening to my father recount his childhood poverty stories makes me sad.
Lower-middle class? What are you talking about? Can you give me links that break up the economic classes in India based on income? Experience and references (like my family) tell me that this is wrong. 70% of Indians? Are you referring to the number of people who live in rural areas? The rural living Indians don’t need that much money anyway as they can grow their food themselves. Their lives are definitely not as difficult as it was back then, with all the agricultural, medical, and technological advances. My family also happens to own several large tracts of farm land in rural areas so they would know. You would be better off giving statistics of the poor in the cities. They are the ones that have it the worst. And where are you getting that $2/day thing? I have seen this faulty statistic in too many sources proven to be unreliable and inaccurate.
How would you know that? How do you know India will follow the same lines? Once again, you have a skewed experience and samples to base your conclusions on. You do realize that the West became so because of the disparity between the hypocrisy in Abrahamic traditions and modern secular humanistic ideals right? These ideals and Hinduism are entirely reconcilable. Hindu spirituality is on the rise in India and the old superstition of bhakti devotion is dying out. I could see that myself in a visit not too long ago. My family, which is all over India, also asserts much the same.
Actually, this is not time Hinduism goes global. Not yet anyway. You still do not realize that too many people associate Hinduism with the poverty and squalor within India. Besides, educating others about Hinduism is also be a waste of my time because people will see that India has nothing to show for all the virtues and high philosophy of Hinduism. Too many people think Bhakti Hinduism IS Hinduism. Even when you tell people otherwise, they will resist and argue your “views.” I done this MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY times and I assure you the results are not much different. The West is willfully ignorant with its intellectual dogmatism. Only when the roots are revived can Hinduism become global.
No I think it is a sin function. :D. Rise and fall, rise and fall. What happened after Rome fell? The splitting of Europe into many kingdoms, tribes, principalities, and what not. The ensuing of the Dark Ages. The rise of Christianity as an oppressive and domineering force. Only with the filtration of knowledge into Europe through the civilized Muslim world did the Renaissance and the resulting hunger for knowledge take place. What happened after India fell? This is a more difficult question as there is really no way you can define how the subcontinent and Hinduism “fell.” We can definitely assert that the lowest point was British occupation but even then, the West was largely ignorant of Hinduism and Indian culture. Only with the rise of India did the rise of Yoga and etc take place.
Yes, at least it had them. At least the people weren’t colonized and the entire nation driven into the depths of depravity through the evils of colonialism and imperialism. I do not deny that India is in the state you claim it is in. However, I also know that such societal evils are on the decline. There are several other factors involved in the rise of societal changes and reforms. Just because there is ignorance, doesn’t mean there will always be imminent change. Keep in mind the colonialism of the British and the evils they inculcated in Indian society. And keep in mind that now India is free to pursue its future, these changes can surely come. Keep in mind that these “reforms” you expect are in the forms of organizations, of which there are already several in India (some have helped greatly), and the economic uplifting brought about by capitalism. Keep in mind that Hinduism is a vast fabric in which there are many ideologies (some even fit for present times) to choose from and relate to present day conditions, ideologies for which there is little needed change (only societal) (unlike Christianity which had to adapt to secular humanism and the changing environment multiple times, hence all the reforms). It is not for nothing that Hinduism is known as the eternal way/path.
You are indeed being whimsical. It is too much of a grand idea for today’s times. There is still too much poverty, ignorance,and chauvinism across the world. Only when some nations are humbled and other nations have risen to equal footing with others will your ideas take hold. Until then, it would be laughable for many to think that Africans are equal to Europeans.
I know Communism is not the only one. I said that communism, basically the epitome of these alternative and competing systems, has failed. There is no escape from capitalism Surya. Any country willing to give up capitalism has to also be willing to give up their spots in the global echelon and I know of no country in their right minds willing to do this, especially the U.S. The backlash would be too great for any such change to be effective. It is nice and all to come with all these philosophical and pedantic ideals but in reality, such change isn’t possible or feasible unless if the nations of the world all become failed nations and can start anew.
I know what you mean. You cannot reconcile the two. The best that can be done is delay the inevitable.
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;50539]I have never said that the West is less civilized than India, at least in the nominal sense. What else do you expect? The West financed its way to the top of the world at the expense of the colonized countries. This disparity of wealth and “virtues” in the West sprouts change. In the colonized countries however, the people are too busy being raped of their lifestyles and oppressed to know that something better lies out there. So of course you will see those sorts of habits. However, you cannot deny that India is fast developing in many areas and sector. You said you lived in India for 6 months? Congratulations. I lived there for 5 years and that too before it experienced its economic boom. I may have been a young boy at the time but the memories were graphic enough to be imprinted onto my mind forever. I even witnessed people dying on the street. I even witnessed a massive street fight and the ensuing chaos, death, blood and destruction. Compared to back then, these habits are far on the decline. I only see the poor engage in those sorts of activities and even the numbers of poor are on the decline. You, like most ignorant Westerners, are using what the poor Indian does and making it seem like the epitome of Indian-ness and Hindu-ness.
And sure the “average” Indian may engage in those sorts of uncivilized activities but at least it is out of ignorance and lack of awareness. And therein, lies the difference. Whereas many in India are simply ignorant, most in the West are willfully ignorant. Whereas many in India have the potential for change and do change, many in the West do not change and cling onto misconceptions and misinformation in the way a crying baby clings onto its mother.
I accept the fact that the West is currently at the top. I also accept the fact that the West is obviously on the decline. I also accept the fact that ignorance, hatred, and other negative emotions are on the rise. I can easily see that much in the country you tout the most, the U.S.
I see Indians as a unique race in terms of religion and spirituality, just as I see the Chinese as unique in terms of their industrial capacity, and the Europeans as unique in terms of their innovative capabilities.
Why do I not see humanity as one? Because it is clearly not at this point and not because I simply refuse to see it as one. There is still a huge disparity between the races of the Earth. The whites are on the top of the food chain and the Africans and the indigenous peoples of the world on the bottom. As I said before, there can never be “human race” as long as such differences exist (and the perceptions and attitudes they may elicit). Only when every nation and “race” is on the same level of development and prosperity as each other can there be any hope of unification and amalgamation.
Wait, what are you saying? I was being sarcastic about China! When I said cough China cough, I was attempting to convey how the political and societal systems in China are NOT accommodative enough for that kind of change. I already know all this.
Actually, I do appreciate how hard life is for most Indians. My family has a history of rising from the depths of poverty and into the heights of prosperity. When my father arrived at the U.S, he only had a pair of clothes in his suitcase and now, we’re middle-upper class. My grandfather and his 4 sons used to live on 25 rupees a day in despicable conditions. Even listening to my father recount his childhood poverty stories makes me sad.
Lower-middle class? What are you talking about? Can you give me links that break up the economic classes in India based on income? Experience and references (like my family) tell me that this is wrong. 70% of Indians? Are you referring to the number of people who live in rural areas? The rural living Indians don’t need that much money anyway as they can grow their food themselves. Their lives are definitely not as difficult as it was back then, with all the agricultural, medical, and technological advances. My family also happens to own several large tracts of farm land in rural areas so they would know. You would be better off giving statistics of the poor in the cities. They are the ones that have it the worst. And where are you getting that $2/day thing? I have seen this faulty statistic in too many sources proven to be unreliable and inaccurate.
How would you know that? How do you know India will follow the same lines? Once again, you have a skewed experience and samples to base your conclusions on. You do realize that the West became so because of the disparity between the hypocrisy in Abrahamic traditions and modern secular humanistic ideals right? These ideals and Hinduism are entirely reconcilable. Hindu spirituality is on the rise in India and the old superstition of bhakti devotion is dying out. I could see that myself in a visit not too long ago. My family, which is all over India, also asserts much the same.
Actually, this is not time Hinduism goes global. Not yet anyway. You still do not realize that too many people associate Hinduism with the poverty and squalor within India. Besides, educating others about Hinduism is also be a waste of my time because people will see that India has nothing to show for all the virtues and high philosophy of Hinduism. Too many people think Bhakti Hinduism IS Hinduism. Even when you tell people otherwise, they will resist and argue your “views.” I done this MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY times and I assure you the results are not much different. The West is willfully ignorant with its intellectual dogmatism. Only when the roots are revived can Hinduism become global.
No I think it is a sin function. :D. Rise and fall, rise and fall. What happened after Rome fell? The splitting of Europe into many kingdoms, tribes, principalities, and what not. The ensuing of the Dark Ages. The rise of Christianity as an oppressive and domineering force. Only with the filtration of knowledge into Europe through the civilized Muslim world did the Renaissance and the resulting hunger for knowledge take place. What happened after India fell? This is a more difficult question as there is really no way you can define how the subcontinent and Hinduism “fell.” We can definitely assert that the lowest point was British occupation but even then, the West was largely ignorant of Hinduism and Indian culture. Only with the rise of India did the rise of Yoga and etc take place.
Yes, at least it had them. At least the people weren’t colonized and the entire nation driven into the depths of depravity through the evils of colonialism and imperialism. I do not deny that India is in the state you claim it is in. However, I also know that such societal evils are on the decline. There are several other factors involved in the rise of societal changes and reforms. Just because there is ignorance, doesn’t mean there will always be imminent change. Keep in mind the colonialism of the British and the evils they inculcated in Indian society. And keep in mind that now India is free to pursue its future, these changes can surely come. Keep in mind that these “reforms” you expect are in the forms of organizations, of which there are already several in India (some have helped greatly), and the economic uplifting brought about by capitalism. Keep in mind that Hinduism is a vast fabric in which there are many ideologies (some even fit for present times) to choose from and relate to present day conditions, ideologies for which there is little needed change (only societal) (unlike Christianity which had to adapt to secular humanism and the changing environment multiple times, hence all the reforms). It is not for nothing that Hinduism is known as the eternal way/path.
You are indeed being whimsical. It is too much of a grand idea for today’s times. There is still too much poverty, ignorance,and chauvinism across the world. Only when some nations are humbled and other nations have risen to equal footing with others will your ideas take hold. Until then, it would be laughable for many to think that Africans are equal to Europeans.
I know Communism is not the only one. I said that communism, basically the epitome of these alternative and competing systems, has failed. There is no escape from capitalism Surya. Any country willing to give up capitalism has to also be willing to give up their spots in the global echelon and I know of no country in their right minds willing to do this, especially the U.S. The backlash would be too great for any such change to be effective. It is nice and all to come with all these philosophical and pedantic ideals but in reality, such change isn’t possible or feasible unless if the nations of the world all become failed nations and can start anew.
I know what you mean. You cannot reconcile the two. The best that can be done is delay the inevitable.[/QUOTE]
So how comes your not in India now may I ask?
[QUOTE=kareng;50704]So how comes your not in India now may I ask?[/QUOTE]
Wait, I thought I told you about the circumstances that made my dad come to America. Remember, about the whole ordeal with my family and the honor, life lessons, etc…no? Well don’t worry, my parents plan to go back to India after I am done with college and etc.
Drivelling excuses for hypocrisy Billy… living in the west, educating in the west, drinking western water, eating western food, using western toilets, spending western money, buying western clothes, walking on western soil, living in a western home, using western internet connections, listening to western music, loving western text books, experiencing western weather, talking to western people, breathing western air…drivelling hypocrisy Billy!
Hindutvatexan more like it!
[QUOTE=kareng;50771]Drivelling excuses for hypocrisy Billy… living in the west, educating in the west, drinking western water, eating western food, using western toilets, spending western money, buying western clothes, walking on western soil, living in a western home, using western internet connections, listening to western music, loving western text books, experiencing western weather, talking to western people, breathing western air…drivelling hypocrisy Billy!
Hindutvatexan more like it![/QUOTE]
Lol, so you are saying that we can live wherever we want and not criticize the faults of that geographical location? Awesome logic Lauren. Time to do away with all those Americans who protested and campaigned for change in America, in thought, deed, or action.
FYI, if I lived in India, I would have criticized the soul out of our anti-Hindu government. You can count on that.
Neitszche,
You know what I am like in facing facts. I hold very steadfastly to it and hold others to the same standards. Thus, I would hold you to those standards in the points you are making.
First and foremost, I completely agree with you that the West has attained their prosperity through the looting of other countries. This is indeniable, and even Western economic historians admit in the case of Britain, how its economy has been artificially enrichened by trillions through looting India, Africa etc. Secondly, I agree with you India’s current state is to blame on centuries of economic genocide by Britain.
That is the past. The events have happened. We can’t do anything to change what has happend - so fast forward to the present.
The present situation is that the West are developed countries and India is a developing country. This is not just in the areas of material progress, but also intellectual, creative, civil and social. You say yourself in India you have seen full blown street fights, people dying on the street, chaos, death and destruction. Such happenings are very rare in the West, because they are developed countries, but they are common in countries that are not developed. So it is not surprising they take place in India.
Here is another thing that is not common I do not get hassled by the airport customs in the UK, taken to the side and then asked for a bribe. That has happened in India twice when I have gone(I have been 3 times as an adult) All my friends and relatives who have gone have reported how common it is.
Yes, I know the situation is improving in India now. Do you know why that is? Because India is more developed now. Naturally then it will start to show more signs of a developed country(less corruption, more regulation, better living standards, better infrastructure) But you are kidding yourself if you claim that this economic boom is benefiting all Indians equally - because it is not. This is the chief reason why the BJP’s, “India shining” campaign failed. India is shining alright, but only for the middle class of Indian society, which only comprise about 30% of the populaion. This means 70%, an overwhelming majority are poor. They are not at all benefiting from the middle class lifestyle(fast food chains, multiplexes, bars, clubs, malls, health spas, cars, houses, computers) They cannot afford it.
A burger meal in the Indian Mcdonalds costs 100rs. The income of the cleaner at my dorms in Delhi in 2001 was 2000rs a month. That is 5% of his income for just having one meal at Mcdonlads. Surely enough, he said to me he cannot afford going to a place like Mcdonlads. On the street, a lamb burger costs 5rs. Even then, my cleaner friend had to count his pennies.
In India I saw how the facilities in India were stratrified according to economic class. There were single screen cinemas for the poor where blockbusters were being shown for 5-10rs(price reflects the awful standards) and cinemas for the middle class where blockbusters were being shown for 300rs. It was very easy to see what kind of demographic attended the multiplexes and what demographic attended the poor single screens. The multiplexes, which were often inside malls or near malls and fast food chains attracted wealthy upper middle class wearing western clothes and speaking in English, and the single screens attracted your average chaiwalas and rishawalas.
Poverty in India is rampant. It is not just limited to one area, it is everywhere. It is the reverse of the West. In the West there are pockets of poverty, in India it there are pockets of wealth. Most Indians are poor, and this is a fact that you simply cannot deny. You and your family may not be poor, as you say you are the amongst the richest families in Hyderabad, but most Indians compared to you are dirt poor.
You like capitalism to an extent, because capitalism gives you what you need. I had this discussion recently with my friends, that despite capitalism being an exploitative system, people will defend capitalism because it gives us what we need. It gives us the means to live a highly comfortable life, travel around the world, eat and drink whatever we want from anywhere, around the world, engage in all kinds of leisure activity -they have the luxury to play with their lifestyle. Those who have this lifestyle, forget that others are getting exploited elsewhere.
Let’s face it people who support capitalism are selfish. They have what they want, so they forget about the others. What doe it matter to them that the designer clothes they are wearing, are made in sweat shops in the third world, as long as they get to wear them. We all do this, including myself, we simply become oblivious to the plight of the rest of our fellow human beings and pretend that our luxury lifestyle is the norm, and only those who are not able do not get our lifestyle.
But as has been pointed out before with reference to Marx’s analysis, capitalism contains contradictions which makes it ultimately unsustainable. The middle class cannot remain because capitalism finally leads to a society where there are only two classes: the rich overlords and the poor peasants. We can already see this happening in the Western world with the crumbling of the middle class. In the US many middleclass homes are facing foreclosure and slums are appearing across the landscape of the US. In the UK we are facing cuts in every area, leading to a reduction in our living standards.
But the most important contradiction in capitalism is that it contradicts with what we are. Capitalism defines us as a material consumer(so does communism for that matter) Thus our entire lifestyle becomes one of material consumption(food, drink, sex, leisure etc) The vast majority of us in the West have our material needs catered for in abudance - we can eat whatever we want from anywhere in the world(pizza, curry, noodles, sushi, kebab etc) drink whatever we want in the world(wine, beer, spirits, juices, fizzy drinks) have sex as frequently as we want, with as many partners we want, in every way imaginable and engage in every leisure activity from sun bathing to paragliding we want. We westerners truly are a very decadent people. And yet — why is it that despite having our material needs so abundantly catered for - we have the highest rates of mental illness, depression and stress, divorce and adultery in the world?
The answer is very clear: we are not material beings. We are spiritual beings, having material experiences. As spiritual being we have spiritual needs and thus our lifestyle needs to be one of spiritual consumption(health, harmony, morality, duty, compassion, wisdom) Therefore we need a society that is spiritual and caters to our spiritual needs. You may find this difficult to appreciate because you identify with a developing country which still has not reached the crisis point where people start waking up from their decadent lifestyles and ask, “WTF” So naturally you will support capitalism and defend it. But you will find there is an increasing and sizable percentage of the West that are rebelling against capitalism and demanding spiritual solutions. Most of my friends, who are all Westerners, hate capitalism and are thirsting for spirituality. Again, this is merely an indication of a developed society.
Your point that people will always associate Hinduism with India because India is the origin of this religon and therefore India needs to be in tip top condition for to appreciate it is silly. Christianity is associated with Jerusalem, and Jerusalem is hardly in tip top condition, and yet Christianity has a worldwide population of 2 billion people. In fact the capitol of Christiantiy today is in Italy. Maybe the capitol of Hinduism in the future will be America.
If a religion were to be judged by its origins then by definition Scientology must be judged the best because it is associated with the Hollywood elite 
A religion is judged not by its origins, but by what it teaches and whether its practices work. Yoga comes from India, and Yoga is massively appreciated in the world, especially in the West.
Likewise, your point about Indians being a unique race is silly. To believe in the notion of race in this day and age is the equivalent to biology as flat earth is to astronomy.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50858]Neitszche,
You know what I am like in facing facts. I hold very steadfastly to it and hold others to the same standards. Thus, I would hold you to those standards in the points you are making.
First and foremost, I completely agree with you that the West has attained their prosperity through the looting of other countries. This is indeniable, and even Western economic historians admit in the case of Britain, how its economy has been artificially enrichened by trillions through looting India, Africa etc. Secondly, I agree with you India’s current state is to blame on centuries of economic genocide by Britain.
That is the past. The events have happened. We can’t do anything to change what has happend - so fast forward to the present.
The present situation is that the West are developed countries and India is a developing country. This is not just in the areas of material progress, but also intellectual, creative, civil and social. You say yourself in India you have seen full blown street fights, people dying on the street, chaos, death and destruction. Such happenings are very rare in the West, because they are developed countries, but they are common in countries that are not developed. So it is not surprising they take place in India.
Here is another thing that is not common I do not get hassled by the airport customs in the UK, taken to the side and then asked for a bribe. That has happened in India twice when I have gone(I have been 3 times as an adult) All my friends and relatives who have gone have reported how common it is.
Yes, I know the situation is improving in India now. Do you know why that is? Because India is more developed now. Naturally then it will start to show more signs of a developed country(less corruption, more regulation, better living standards, better infrastructure) But you are kidding yourself if you claim that this economic boom is benefiting all Indians equally - because it is not. This is the chief reason why the BJP’s, “India shining” campaign failed. India is shining alright, but only for the middle class of Indian society, which only comprise about 30% of the populaion. This means 70%, an overwhelming majority are poor. They are not at all benefiting from the middle class lifestyle(fast food chains, multiplexes, bars, clubs, malls, health spas, cars, houses, computers) They cannot afford it.
A burger meal in the Indian Mcdonalds costs 100rs. The income of the cleaner at my dorms in Delhi in 2001 was 2000rs a month. That is 5% of his income for just having one meal at Mcdonlads. Surely enough, he said to me he cannot afford going to a place like Mcdonlads. On the street, a lamb burger costs 5rs. Even then, my cleaner friend had to count his pennies.
In India I saw how the facilities in India were stratrified according to economic class. There were single screen cinemas for the poor where blockbusters were being shown for 5-10rs(price reflects the awful standards) and cinemas for the middle class where blockbusters were being shown for 300rs. It was very easy to see what kind of demographic attended the multiplexes and what demographic attended the poor single screens. The multiplexes, which were often inside malls or near malls and fast food chains attracted wealthy upper middle class wearing western clothes and speaking in English, and the single screens attracted your average chaiwalas and rishawalas.
Poverty in India is rampant. It is not just limited to one area, it is everywhere. It is the reverse of the West. In the West there are pockets of poverty, in India it there are pockets of wealth. Most Indians are poor, and this is a fact that you simply cannot deny. You and your family may not be poor, as you say you are the amongst the richest families in Hyderabad, but most Indians compared to you are dirt poor.
You like capitalism to an extent, because capitalism gives you what you need. I had this discussion recently with my friends, that despite capitalism being an exploitative system, people will defend capitalism because it gives us what we need. It gives us the means to live a highly comfortable life, travel around the world, eat and drink whatever we want from anywhere, around the world, engage in all kinds of leisure activity -they have the luxury to play with their lifestyle. Those who have this lifestyle, forget that others are getting exploited elsewhere.
Let’s face it people who support capitalism are selfish. They have what they want, so they forget about the others. What doe it matter to them that the designer clothes they are wearing, are made in sweat shops in the third world, as long as they get to wear them. We all do this, including myself, we simply become oblivious to the plight of the rest of our fellow human beings and pretend that our luxury lifestyle is the norm, and only those who are not able do not get our lifestyle.
But as has been pointed out before with reference to Marx’s analysis, capitalism contains contradictions which makes it ultimately unsustainable. The middle class cannot remain because capitalism finally leads to a society where there are only two classes: the rich overlords and the poor peasants. We can already see this happening in the Western world with the crumbling of the middle class. In the US many middleclass homes are facing foreclosure and slums are appearing across the landscape of the US. In the UK we are facing cuts in every area, leading to a reduction in our living standards.
But the most important contradiction in capitalism is that it contradicts with what we are. Capitalism defines us as a material consumer(so does communism for that matter) Thus our entire lifestyle becomes one of material consumption(food, drink, sex, leisure etc) The vast majority of us in the West have our material needs catered for in abudance - we can eat whatever we want from anywhere in the world(pizza, curry, noodles, sushi, kebab etc) drink whatever we want in the world(wine, beer, spirits, juices, fizzy drinks) have sex as frequently as we want, with as many partners we want, in every way imaginable and engage in every leisure activity from sun bathing to paragliding we want. We westerners truly are a very decadent people. And yet — why is it that despite having our material needs so abundantly catered for - we have the highest rates of mental illness, depression and stress, divorce and adultery in the world?
The answer is very clear: we are not material beings. We are spiritual beings, having material experiences. As spiritual being we have spiritual needs and thus our lifestyle needs to be one of spiritual consumption(health, harmony, morality, duty, compassion, wisdom) Therefore we need a society that is spiritual and caters to our spiritual needs. You may find this difficult to appreciate because you identify with a developing country which still has not reached the crisis point where people start waking up from their decadent lifestyles and ask, “WTF” So naturally you will support capitalism and defend it. But you will find there is an increasing and sizable percentage of the West that are rebelling against capitalism and demanding spiritual solutions. Most of my friends, who are all Westerners, hate capitalism and are thirsting for spirituality. Again, this is merely an indication of a developed society.
Your point that people will always associate Hinduism with India because India is the origin of this religon and therefore India needs to be in tip top condition for to appreciate it is silly. Christianity is associated with Jerusalem, and Jerusalem is hardly in tip top condition, and yet Christianity has a worldwide population of 2 billion people. In fact the capitol of Christiantiy today is in Italy. Maybe the capitol of Hinduism in the future will be America.
If a religion were to be judged by its origins then by definition Scientology must be judged the best because it is associated with the Hollywood elite
A religion is judged not by its origins, but by what it teaches and whether its practices work. Yoga comes from India, and Yoga is massively appreciated in the world, especially in the West.
Likewise, your point about Indians being a unique race is silly. To believe in the notion of race in this day and age is the equivalent to biology as flat earth is to astronomy.[/QUOTE]
Yes, India is a developing country and is slowing eradicating these blights. It is inevitable. I do not deny its poverty, only the assertion some people make that it isn’t changing.
Really? At this point, I must ask what part of India you visit. I have never seen such a thing in my life and trust me, it isn’t because we go to “rich airports.” And what are you conveying on social stratification? In low income places (even within cities and towns), there are theaters of crap quality which sport relatively low prices. In rich places, the theaters are of high quality and have high prices. This is the same everywhere. This isn’t social stratification. Its providing a service with the standard of living of the area in question.
Once again, the 70% of people you keep citing is the statistic for people living in rural areas. They lead simple lives efficiently due to all the agricultural advances. Compared to the incomes of others, of course they seem dirt poor. What most don’t realize is that their measly “income” is just what they need to survive.
A hotel-type-place cleaner here earns an average of around $18000 a year. An apartment building, depending on the # of people, can cost from around several hundred too in the thousands, per month. Include taxes, insurance, etc (which they probably can’t afford lol). You really think the result is much the same for people in low-skilled jobs anywhere else in the world? What is the point in this comparison? Also keep in mind the lack of shortage of cheap labor in India.
Oh yes, I do not deny this. I also do not deny that the conditions are MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better than during the times I lived in India. Trust me. In fact, if you had lived in India even in the 90’s and looked at the progress today, you would be very shocked. For example, even our family, as rich and influential as it was, struggled to get clean water back then. I remembered that I often got sick from it as a child. This is no longer the case anymore. We lived in a crumbling mansion before and now we own a luxury hotel. See how lovely change is?
Once again, India is relatively impoverished but the conditions are also getting better.
Why? Not because they are spiritual beings. :lol:. It is because their very culture and ideology is like that. You would know this from studying the history of Western countries. I wish I could elaborate but I must go soon after this post. I will expand later by showing you examples from U.S history.
No, the West as a whole loves capitalism. All the economic downfalls you see are explained by the people not as inherent faults within capitalism but in terms of lack of/too much governmental control and the irresponsibility of the elitist. You have friends who hate capitalism. Thats nice. So do I. Plenty. Unfortunately, they, along with myself, comprise the minority portion of Western society derogatorily labeled “nerds.” In America, during the economic crisis, all you could see on the Internet and from the nationwide polls/statistics was people blaming the government, not capitalism itself.
Oh really? Look at Islam. Look at what most Westerners think of it. Look at the state of most Islamic nations. What do you say? 
The fact is that Christianity itself has no well defined roots, so to speak. It sprouted in the Eastern Meditteranean, spread all throughout the Byzantine and Western Roman empires, and flowered in Europe (Catholicism) and the Americas (Reformation denominations). And what condition are America and Europe in today? (Hint: $$$) Why are missionaries so successful in converting the poor? (Hint: $$$). What do Christians often think of when they look at Hinduism or any of the pagan African religions? (Hint: No $$$ = supposedly lost in the hopeless darkness that are those religions). That is why when you think of Christianity, you normally think in more general terms, such as the “West.”
As for Hinduism, and Islam, you cannot deny the fact that it has unmistakable cultural contexts and roots. You cannot think of Islam and Hinduism without thinking of the countries and regions. This is partially why these religions are suffering much backlash and misconceptions. Even many of the philosophies have “Indian-like” thought in them. This, you cannot deny. And this is primarily why it will be so hard to convince the masses of the world on the viability Hinduism at this stage in global development.
I never said a religion [B]should [/B]be judged by its origins. I implied it is often judged [B]because[/B] of its origins, or lack thereof (meaning universal appeal, like in Christianity), however wrongfully so. Think of all the misconceptions that have abounded about Hinduism. Many of them are intimately linked with Indian culture and the state of India.
By the way, let me tell you something; America is the wrong place. America is the worst place for this kind of cultural assimilation. Most of the people here are really as ignorant as the rest of the world thinks they are, trust me. I literally feel like screaming every time someone asks me “Are you Muslim?”, even after I have long told everyone I am Indian and a Hindu.
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;50817]Lol, so you are saying that we can live wherever we want and not criticize the faults of that geographical location? Awesome logic Lauren. Time to do away with all those Americans who protested and campaigned for change in America, in thought, deed, or action.
FYI, if I lived in India, I would have criticized the soul out of our anti-Hindu government. You can count on that.[/QUOTE]
Well in answer to that first sentence, you have to be an ambassador for your country when you visit another’s country or live there, always…
[QUOTE=kareng;50996]Well in answer to that first sentence, you have to be an ambassador for your country when you visit another’s country or live there, always…[/QUOTE]
LOLOLOLOLOL! There are so many Americans like me who criticize the U.S in so many different areas, it isn’t funny anymore. Literally. These people are called “liberals” and “intellectuals.” You have them in every country Lauren.
By the way, here is a quote from William Loyd Harrison, one of the foremost proponents of abolitionism, on his opinion of the U.S Constitution:
“We execrate it, we spit upon it, we trample it under our feet.”
Even I don’t go THAT far Lauren.
The silly things you say sometimes…
Neitzsche, we can wind this discussion up as we seem to agree on these points:
- India is a developing country and is relatively poor compared to the West
- India is improving
What we disagree on is the fact that the conditions are improving for India’s masses, the 70% of poor Indians living in rural areas. You have not convinced me, and I don’t think you would convince anybody that the 70% of Indians living on less than 2 dollars a day are living OK. No my friend, they are living in poor living standards, lack basic needs like proper drinking water, electricity, housing and education.
You are rich, good for you. Most Indians are not, and do not pretend that they are not. You belong to the 30% middle class, but 70% of Indians do not.
The reason for this vast inequality is capitalism, because capitalism is based on exploitation. There is always going to be vast inequality in a capitalist society. No matter which capitalist country you go to it is always the case the top 1% of the population own about 50%+ of the nations capital. This fundamental contradiction in capitalism means that capital falls into fewer and fewer hands, leading to the masses becoming poorer and poorer. India is going through a similar development with capital falling into fewer and fewer hands. First this leads to the rise of a middle class(petite bourgeoise) and then as capital begins to fall into fewer and fewer hands, the middle class crumbles and the masses become equally as poor. The final result of a capitalist society is a society where a very elite few control and dominate everybody else who are all equally poor. Living standards drop for the masses because all of the capital ends up going to the elite few at the top. This is already happening in the West with every area of society experiencing big cuts.
India will go through a similar growth as the West has. First, the middle class will emerge and by 2020 about 50% of Indians will be middle class, later on around 2040 the middle class will begin to crumble, just like it is doing in the West.
There is really nothing special about India today. It is a developing country and has all the ills that a developing country has. I don’t think you should even pretend that India is better than Western countries - it is not. This is why you are in the US and not in India.
[QUOTE=Nietzsche;51014]LOLOLOLOLOL! There are so many Americans like me who criticize the U.S in so many different areas, it isn’t funny anymore. Literally. These people are called “liberals” and “intellectuals.” You have them in every country Lauren.
By the way, here is a quote from William Loyd Harrison, one of the foremost proponents of abolitionism, on his opinion of the U.S Constitution:
“We execrate it, we spit upon it, we trample it under our feet.”
Even I don’t go THAT far Lauren.
The silly things you say sometimes…[/QUOTE]
Hahahaahah…you are funny Billy