Hindutva

Surya_Deva · March 10, 2017, 7:48pm

Often myself and others on this forum get called Hindutva(Mainly by one member who repeats it in every post like a broken record player) Now, it is interesting to note that this accusation is made in a derogative way, as if being Hindutva is something negative, to be ashamed of and to be condemned. However, upon doing some cursory research on it(mainly wiki, I confess :D), I realised that Hindutva was not something negative at all, but rather it has been given negative connotations only by certain political parties in India(mainly communist parties). The word simply means "Hinduness" but it is associated with Hindu political parties(BJP, RSS etc) and has a common set of political doctrines

V.S Naipul, the Nobel Laureate actually says positive things about Hindutva.
and views the rise of Hindutva as a "welcome, broader civilizational resurgence of India."

Let us look at some of those political doctrines that Hindutva consists of and what I actually really think of them:

Cultural nationalismAccording to this, the natives of India share a common culture, history and ancestry.

M S Golwalkar, one of the main proponents of Hindutva believed that India's diversity in terms of customs, traditions and ways of worship was its uniqueness and that this diversity was not without the strong underlying cultural basis which was essentially native. He believed that the Hindu natives with all their diversity, shared among other things "the same philosophy of life", "the same values" and "the same aspirations" which formed a strong cultural and a civilizational basis for a nation.[3]

Savarkar similarly believed that the Indian subcontinent (which includes the area south of the Himalaya and the Hindu Kush or Akhand Bharat (undivided India, अखण्ड भारत) is the homeland of the Hindus. He considered "Hindus" as those who consider India (Bharat, भारत) to be their motherland (matrubhumi), fatherland (pitrubhumi, पितृभूमि) as well as their holy land (punyabhumi, पुण्यभूमि), hence describing it purely in cultural terms.[1]

I am not in agreement with this doctrine. I do not believe a Hindu is somebody who considers India as their motherland, fatherland and holyland. Although I myself have great reverence for India, I do not believe Hinduism is geographically limited to India. It is true that Hinduism emerged in India, but it is not limited to India. Hinduism is know as the eternal religion and an eternal religion is not limited to any locale or time period. I am a globalist and humanist and believe Hinduism is the property of all of humanity. Nobody has to make any pilgramage to India to become a Hindu. A Hindu is anybody who accepts and practices its core tenets which I have outlined on many occasions(dharma, karma, yoga, atman and brahman, veda) In short anybody who is purely spiritual is closer to being Hindu.

DecolonizationEmphasizing historical oppression of Hindus by colonial invaders like the Muslims (see Muslim conquest of the Indian subcontinent) and the Christians (see Goa Inquisition) and the call to "reverse" the cultural influence resulting from these intrusions.[3]

I am in complete agreement with this doctrine. The actual history of what was done to Hindus by Muslims and Christians should be exposed and taught in college textbooks accurately. To not do this would be to deny the Hindu holocausts. Much of the traditional culture of India which was destroyed by the Muslims and the British, needs to be restored and modernized for the current world. This includes the traditional education system, traditional economic system, traditional medicine and traditional crafts.

Social justiceThe acceptance that Hindu social structure "is ridden with castes and communities", and that this has led to "barriers and segregation" and condemnation of "obnoxious vice of social inequality" and "untouchability".[5] The supporters of Hindutva have a positive outlook towards the Dalit community, which they aim to bring to leadership positions in their organizations.[6]

I am in complete agreement with this doctrine. Casteism has never been a legitimate part of Hindu society, but rather it only became endemic in Indian society during the British ruling of India. When the British outlawed India's traditional industries it lead to everybody being rendered unemployed and they had to then subsist by doing menial jobs to survive(statistics shows that India was a more industrial economy pre-British times than it is today in 2011) A lot of skilled tradesman were lost and these today are the poor castes in India. The poor in India today have the British to blame for the economic genocide that was perpetrated against their forefathers.

Uniform Civil CodeLeaders subscribing to Hindutva have been known for their demands for a Uniform Civil Code for all the citizens of India. They believe that differential laws based on religion violate Article 44 of the Indian Constitution and have sowed the seeds of divisiveness between different religious communities.[7]

The advocates of Hindutva often use the term pseudo-secularism to refer to policies which they believe are unduly favorable towards the Muslims and Christians. They oppose what they see as a 'separate-but-equal' system; some supporters of Hindutva see it as the Indian National Congress party's effort to woo the sizable minority vote bank at the expense of true equality.[8] The subject of a Uniform Civil Code, which would remove special religion-based provisions for different religions (Hindus, Muslims, Christians, etc.) from the Indian Constitution, is thus one of the main agendas of Hindutva organizations.[9] The Uniform Civil Code is opposed by Muslims[10] and political parties like the Indian National Congress and The Communist Party of India (Marxist)[11]

Followers of Hindutva have questioned differential religious laws in India which allows polygamy and triple talaq among Muslims and thereby compromises on the status of Muslim women and "marginalizes" them.[12]

The passing of the Muslim Women (Protection of Rights on Divorce) Act, 1986 by Rajiv Gandhi government to dilute the secular judgment of Supreme Court under pressure from the conservative Muslims was opposed by Hindutva organisations. The new act, in tune with the Shariat, denied even utterly destitute Muslim divorcees the right to alimony from their former husbands.[13]

I am in complete agreement with this doctrine. To have separate laws for each religion in a democratic and secular country is certainly a mockery of democratic and secular principle. Unfortunately, these kind of policies are creeping in into British society as well with Muslims insisting on Sharia law for themselves. Such policies divide society alongside religion and create double standards. It is shameful that the current Indian government allows this to happen.

Protection of Hindu interestsThe followers of Hindutva are known for their criticism of the Indian government as too passive with regard to the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus[14][15] by Kashmiri Muslim separatists and advocates of Hindutva wish a harder stance in Jammu and Kashmir.[16]

They have called for the protection of native Hindu traditions,[17] holy structures, rivers[18] and the cow (which is considered holy by Hindus).

Hindu nationalists have the stated aim of uniting the Hindu society which is plagued by casteism, regionalism, and passive religion.

I am in agreement with this policy. It makes complete sense that traditional Hindu traditions and heritage be protected, because this is the civilizational heritage of India. It also makes sense that Hinduism is protected by the Indian government, because this is the indigenious religion of India. Rather, the opposite is happening Hinduism is allowed to be denigrated and non-indigenious religions are protected from any kind of criticism. The Indian government in its pursuit of secularism has lapsed into pseudo-secularism.

It would appear that I have a lot of affintiy for the Hindutva political philosophy and their doctrines, but the doctrines I have agreed with are all rather positive doctrines which most people would agree with. The doctrine I do not agree with is the most important one: nationalism. I do not at all believe that India is the centre of the world and nor do I believe that Hinduism is the property of India. It is very obvious that Hinduism was discovered in India, but it by no means limited to just India.

I reject all nationalistic philosophies because they are narrow minded. The idea of the nation state is defunct today, we are living in a globalized world formed of complex conjuctive and disjunctive interactions. My greater self is all of humanity irrespective of their caste, creed, sect, gender, class, sexuality. In my opinion, India is the past centre of the world, but the current centre of the world is the West and America is the capital. It is America which was built on principles of liberty. This makes America ripe for a a spiritual revolution.

It is the West that is leading the world today; including in spirituality. Therefore it is from the West that efforts will come to establish a new world order. We must all work together to make sure that the new world order that is established is a dharmic one. This can be done by joining the academic world and/or positions of intellectual power and making a case for a dharmic world. The opportunity to do this is only there in the West, because the West allows freedom of speech. However, flawed this maybe, it is still greater than which is afforded in other societies in the world.

Nietzsche · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

I agree. The word Hindutva itself has negative connotations. I personally see no problem in taking pride in being Hindu and Indian.

However, what I do not like is the “India for Hindus” claptrap. Hinduism is not confined to India and nor should it be the sole and dominant religion. There are other beautiful faiths and traditions in India with much spiritual value and profundity.

And I disagree with the notion that the West in the center of spirituality. Sure Yoga is growing but most are deriving only superficial (physical) benefits and meaning from it. The traditional scorn for Hinduism, India, and other Eastern faiths and countries remains.

Fine, there are definitely inherent benefits in promoting spirituality from the West due to its democratic ideals and laws. However, what does the rest of their society have to show for it? Most Westerners are ignorant and shockingly obtuse in their view of the world. Even many Westerners who are well educated and have nice intellects have this disgusting sense of Western superiority.

Spirituality can never take hold in the West. So long as the West remains at the top of the world, ignorance, and chauvinism will prevent any enmeshing of cultures. They take and take and take and turn the thing they take into a mockery of its former self. Then they continue to denounce and deride the place the thing they took came from.

The only way that Hinduism and other Eastern faiths can truly take root on the international level is if it is revived and strengthened at the national level. Yes, that means India, as a nation-state. Too many people of the world associate cultures with the respective nation/region. You cannot avoid that. And the only way to counteract these nationalistic perspectives is for the nation, any nation in fact, to grow materially into a position of strength such that it may assert itself in the global scheme. Only when every country is on a materially equal footing will the people of other countries consider the validity of another’s ways.

Surya_Deva · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

I strongly believe in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Self-actualization follows from meeting your other needs. Note that spirituality only thrived in India when it was materially prosperous, and today when it is not, it has become a safe haven for corruption and superstition. The West was once like India was today, a safe haven for corruption and superstition until it became materially prosperous.

India has regressed and the West has progressed. Before you can make India spiritual again you need to make it materially prosperous. This is the attitude of Indians too, they care little to hear about spirituality, because they are motivated by material desires. They want, like the West does, middle class houses, cars, computers, mobile phones, pubs and clubs, multiplexes. It is very clear to see that Indians follow after the West, because the West has what they want. They emulate everything about the West, including all its flaws.

On the other hand, a sizable amount of people in the West want spirituality. They want what ancient India had. They are the ones driving research into consciousness studies, meditation, yoga, parapsychology and spending handsomely on this. Most of the cutting edge research in spirituality is coming from the West, not India. This is why if you want to contribute to spirituality, you need to contribute where your contributions will be heard. You need to forget about India, India is a virtually extinct country and has been dead for the last 1000 years when the Mughals invaded and destroyed its warrior class. Then the British invaded and destroyed the academic class. It started dying 5000 years ago. The India of today is a hybrid of old India, Mughal India and British India, with the latter aspects being more preponderant.

In all likeliness India is going to be destroyed by China and Pakistan. If tomorrow a world war started, India would be had by the combined forces of China and Pakistan. China has been planning an invasion of India for a decade now and it has mobilized troops on the borders of India and encircled it. India is its own enemy today because it is fragmented into several groups: castes, regions, languages, religions, ideologies. It is ripe for another invasion and this invasion will be the last invasion.

I am not an enemy of India as you obviously know, but I am simply making you aware of how hopeless a cause India is today. It is better not wasting your energy and time, the country is done for. This is why I am emphasising that you must keep Hinduism alive in the world and to do so you must do it via the West, which is currently in the process of globalization and spiritual revolution. If we can cause a spiritual revolution in the West then we can have a spiritual globalization. This is where the Hindus in the world must play a role.

Sanatana dharma is bigger than India. It is time Sanatana dharma spreads across the world again. Why do you think so many gurus are setting up base in the West? Why was Swami Viveakananda and Swami Yogananda told to go to the West? This is because the West is now the leader of the world. It is from the West that the revolution will come.

Indra_Deva · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49378]…Sanatana dharma is bigger than India. It is time Sanatana dharma spreads across the world again. Why do you think so many gurus are setting up base in the West? Why was Swami Viveakananda and Swami Yogananda told to go to the West? This is because the West is now the leader of the world. [B]It is from the West that the revolution will come. [/B] [/QUOTE]

HINDUTVA GLOBAL DOMINATION!

but I digress… :lol::lol::lol:

reaswaran · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49378]In all likeliness India is going to be destroyed by China and Pakistan. . It is ripe for another invasion and this invasion will be the last invasion.
[/QUOTE]

A very drastic view. I differ with it but defend your right to your views.
United India is a very recent phenomenon as we are all aware. The Indian sub continent was called Hindustan. There are various views on how this word originated - many agree that it is to do with the civilisation on thebanks of the river Indus- The Persians (modern day Iran) called it Sindhu and this gradually was prounounced with a “H”. This pronounciation stuck with the western world referring to the inhabitants as Hindoos -now Hindu. It could also be due to the muslim travellers in ancient times who referred to it as Hindusthan. (literally the place of the Hindus).
The Indian sub continent has weathered many storms of invasions - the Aryans, the Greeks, Turks, Arabs, Afghans, Portuguese, Dutch, French & of course the English. I therefore do not share the same concern as my learned friend.

Surya_Deva · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

A very drastic view. I differ with it but defend your right to your views.
United India is a very recent phenomenon as we are all aware. The Indian sub continent was called Hindustan. There are various views on how this word originated - many agree that it is to do with the civilisation on thebanks of the river Indus- The Persians (modern day Iran) called it Sindhu and this gradually was prounounced with a “H”. This pronounciation stuck with the western world referring to the inhabitants as Hindoos -now Hindu. It could also be due to the muslim travellers in ancient times who referred to it as Hindusthan. (literally the place of the Hindus).

India was variously called Aryavarta and Bharata. The word India and Hindustan are respectively British and Arabic words for India.

India has been united many times in the past. It was united during the Maurayan empire and the Gupta empire. However, as India has historically been made out of kingdoms, empires have risen and fallen constantly throughout Indian history.

The Indian sub continent has weathered many storms of invasions - the Aryans, the Greeks, Turks, Arabs, Afghans, Portuguese, Dutch, French & of course the English. I therefore do not share the same concern as my learned friend.

There was no Aryan invasion and there is absolutely no evidence to support such an invasion took place. Regarding the others, India because it has consisted of multiple kingdoms, has lost territory and gained territory many times. Sometimes its most northen territories have been under Persia and the Greeks, and sometimes they have been under Indian territory. The Greeks had limited success against India, they were able to walk through Persia, but were finally defeated when they got to Indian borders by Porus. This caused them to turn back and sign peace treaties with Porus and ceded their captured Persian territory to him.

After that period the worst invasions to hit India were the Mughal invasions. However, India fought valiantly against the Mughals. The Mughals had decimated every other nation they fought against. They pretty much walked through Persia and ended the Roman empire. But in India they faced stiff resistance. This is why India never became a majority Muslim country. South India predomiantly remained under Hindu kings. However, what the Muslims were succesful in doing was weakening the warrior class in India.

By far the worst invasion was by the British. They were able to completely take control of all of India. This is because the Mughals had weakened the Hindu warrior class significantly and because of constant wars between Hindu and Muslim kingdoms, the British were able to capitalise on this and gain a footing in Indian territory. They fuelled the wars between Muslims and Hindus to allow both sides to weaken from fighting with each other, and then cleverly finished them off, subjugating all of India. Now with India under British rule, the British started to take over the academic class of India and were able to completely rewrite India’s history, reinvent the religion of Hinduism and replace all of India’s traditional systems with their own. This was when the death of India was complete.

Look at India today and tell me which part is really Indian? The education system? The legal system? The government system? The media system? The economic system? None of it is Indian. It is all western. India has been well and truly dead for the last 200 years. The Indians of today are nothing like the Indians of the past. There is nothing Indian about them. They are a colonized people.

India today is one of the most divided countries on the planet. No consensus is ever reached on anything and every state has a succession movement. The Punjabis want their Khalistan. The Shiva Sena want their Maharastra. The Tamils want their Dravidian state. The Kashmiris want their azaad Kashmir. The North East are becoming communist. In this country there are terrorist attacks everyday. The 80% Hindus of the country support an anti-Hindu government. What hope does this country have when it is so hopelessly divided?

Recently, a Chinese strategist said in an article that China could break India into pieces with just one move. India is strongly in danger of completely disintergrating and falling under Chinese occupation. Simply because it lacks unity. The most likely scenorio I can see in the future is India falling into the hands of China. This is why I have more or less given up on India. In the grande scheme of things what is more important about India, is not the land called India, but the religion, way of life and science of India - which must be kept alive in the world - even if the land of India does not remain alive.

Swami Vivekananda famously said that if Hinduism were to vanish of this planet then truth will vanish of this planet, nobility will vanish of this planet, compassion and wisdom will vanish of this planet. It is imperative we start to spread the Vedic religion over the planet. It will not survive if it remains in India - it will go down with the sinking ship. It is time for Hinduism to go global.

High_Wolf · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49395]
Swami Vivekananda famously said that if Hinduism were to vanish of this planet then truth will vanish of this planet, nobility will vanish of this planet, compassion and wisdom will vanish of this planet. It is imperative we start to spread the Vedic religion over the planet. It will not survive if it remains in India - it will go down with the sinking ship. It is time for Hinduism to go global.[/QUOTE]

Hinduism will vanish from the face of this planet. A new generation of humans is coming alive, clad in a spiritual dress and blessed with long life. In future there will moreover be new religions, for good or evil, difficult to see…

Yet nobility will never vanish. I think you are too afraid of losing the spiritual anticipation provided by Hinduism. Have some faith in the world, in tree, in rock, in sea, in clouds… there are other forces in work in this world…unfathomable forces…

reaswaran · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49395]Look at India today and tell me which part is really Indian? The education system? The legal system? The government system? The media system? The economic system? None of it is Indian. It is all western. India has been well and truly dead for the last 200 years. The Indians of today are nothing like the Indians of the past. There is nothing Indian about them. They are a colonized people.
QUOTE]

Very lucid Surya. But tell me , is it your stand that India should not modernise ? After all , if we are so happily saying that the best of Hinduism is picked up by the West, why should India not pick up the best in other systems ? The educational system is based on the British model as is the legal system ? Is that a sign of weakness ? On the contrary, I think it showed great wisdom on the part of the founding fathers during independence that they accepted the good which was already there. It would have been stupid to throw out all existing systems and try to revive what was obsolete. If that is your arguement as to India being dead, why then all humans are dead for almost all cells in the body (except the cereberal cortex) are replaced every few years.
There is much truth in the saying “Whatever cannot change must die”. Sorry friend, in spite of your brilliant exposition, your writing only reveals a deep seated bias.

Surya_Deva · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

Very lucid Surya. But tell me , is it your stand that India should not modernise ? After all , if we are so happily saying that the best of Hinduism is picked up by the West, why should India not pick up the best in other systems ? The educational system is based on the British model as is the legal system ? Is that a sign of weakness ? On the contrary, I think it showed great wisdom on the part of the founding fathers during independence that they accepted the good which was already there. It would have been stupid to throw out all existing systems and try to revive what was obsolete. If that is your arguement as to India being dead, why then all humans are dead for almost all cells in the body (except the cereberal cortex) are replaced every few years.
There is much truth in the saying “Whatever cannot change must die”. Sorry friend, in spite of your brilliant exposition, your writing only reveals a deep seated bias.

I am not arguing against progress or modernization, but modernization needs to be on ones own terms. India was not modernized naturally, rather it was forced to adopt a foreign culture, which replaced everything Indian. Hence there is nothing Indian left in India. It is all Western.

None of India’s traditional systems were obsolete. At the time the British arrived its education system, healthcare, industry, social systems were the finest in the world. It was a heavily industralized coutry producing high quality textiles, gems, spices, steel, ships and was renown all over the world. You can research British reports on how highly Indian goods were regarded, they had almost legendary status. It has already beaten Europe to the development of rocketry and cannons, and there is no doubt that it would have had an industrial and technological revolution. However, before this could happen Indian industry and education was wiped out by the British, ending its industrial and literary culture.

The Indian systems were so good that Britain adapted all its systems into its own culture. They adapated Indian steel production methods, ship building methods, textile methods, India’s education system and its medical methods. In the social sciences they adapted its philosophies and linguistic sciences. Practically all of Western linguistics is plagiarised from Indian linguistics.

Even today Indian systems are still superior to the Western systems. Indian goods which are made using traditional methods are still very high quality and fine. India’s healthcare and management systems Ayurveda and Yoga are still highly sought after in the world and one can still do degrees in these subjects today. India’s education system, which consisted of compulsory subjects like the six systems of philosophy, Sanskrit grammar and logic would still produce more literatre, progressive and critical thinkers today. India’s music is still the most complex, developed and scientific today. India’s metaphysical sciences such as Vedanta and Samkhya are appreciated by the highest Western intellectuals, and considered the best.

There is still a massive demand in the world for Indian things - except by Indians themselves in India, who want Western things. They cannot appreciate their own culture. To them anything that is non-Indian is cool and trendy. Western fashion and media. Japanese electronics. Chinese and Italian food. This is why they are a hopeless people, because they lack their own unique identity.

If there is any hope for India they need to go back to their roots and replace all the Western systems in India with modernized Indian systems. However, as ironic as this sounds, this is more likely to happen in the West itself than it is in India. The West will Indianize, while India will westernize. What India does not realise that Westernization leads to destruction. This is exactly where the West are today at a point of complete and total social, moral, economic and philosophical collapse.

Nietzsche · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49378]I strongly believe in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Self-actualization follows from meeting your other needs. Note that spirituality only thrived in India when it was materially prosperous, and today when it is not, it has become a safe haven for corruption and superstition. The West was once like India was today, a safe haven for corruption and superstition until it became materially prosperous.

India has regressed and the West has progressed. Before you can make India spiritual again you need to make it materially prosperous. This is the attitude of Indians too, they care little to hear about spirituality, because they are motivated by material desires. They want, like the West does, middle class houses, cars, computers, mobile phones, pubs and clubs, multiplexes. It is very clear to see that Indians follow after the West, because the West has what they want. They emulate everything about the West, including all its flaws.

On the other hand, a sizable amount of people in the West want spirituality. They want what ancient India had. They are the ones driving research into consciousness studies, meditation, yoga, parapsychology and spending handsomely on this. Most of the cutting edge research in spirituality is coming from the West, not India. This is why if you want to contribute to spirituality, you need to contribute where your contributions will be heard. You need to forget about India, India is a virtually extinct country and has been dead for the last 1000 years when the Mughals invaded and destroyed its warrior class. Then the British invaded and destroyed the academic class. It started dying 5000 years ago. The India of today is a hybrid of old India, Mughal India and British India, with the latter aspects being more preponderant.

In all likeliness India is going to be destroyed by China and Pakistan. If tomorrow a world war started, India would be had by the combined forces of China and Pakistan. China has been planning an invasion of India for a decade now and it has mobilized troops on the borders of India and encircled it. India is its own enemy today because it is fragmented into several groups: castes, regions, languages, religions, ideologies. It is ripe for another invasion and this invasion will be the last invasion.

I am not an enemy of India as you obviously know, but I am simply making you aware of how hopeless a cause India is today. It is better not wasting your energy and time, the country is done for. This is why I am emphasising that you must keep Hinduism alive in the world and to do so you must do it via the West, which is currently in the process of globalization and spiritual revolution. If we can cause a spiritual revolution in the West then we can have a spiritual globalization. This is where the Hindus in the world must play a role.

Sanatana dharma is bigger than India. It is time Sanatana dharma spreads across the world again. Why do you think so many gurus are setting up base in the West? Why was Swami Viveakananda and Swami Yogananda told to go to the West? This is because the West is now the leader of the world. It is from the West that the revolution will come.[/QUOTE]

Surya Deva, I am sorry for saying this but…that was the most absurd post I have ever seen on the Internet. [B]So[/B] wrong. China cares nothing about conquering other countries. They simply want the power and influence. It slakes their egos better. As for India, they just want the disputed peripheral territory in the Northern regions. China has nothing to gain from attacking India and would have the entire West on their asses the moment they do so. China has more to gain from trade with India (in addition to using it as a political pawn) than conquering it.

You do not know the mindset of the Chinese. In the latter portion of their history, when they were at the top of their world, they felt no reason to conquer any nation. They were at the top and they knew all peoples of all cultures and civilizations would come to them. Indeed, all nations and civilizations DID come to them, kowtow to their Emperor and trade much coveted products. This is the same case today.

So what if the Chinese strategist said that? The Chinese said the same of every other civilization when they were at the top. I personally feel no alarm at the strategist’s statement. He is simply deriding and mocking India, as most Chinese do and have done. India and Indians have always been a joke to the “superior Han Chinese.”

Pakistan is a pathetic excuse for a nation. It is Pakistan that is close to being a failed state Surya Deva. India is on the rise in many ways. Pakistan, on the other hand, is a victim of its Islamic dogmatism, weak/corrupt government, Taliban incursions, and etc.

India is not done for. Are you watching too much BBC?

You can tout your lack of national identification but the fact is, you are Indian. People will identify you as such. If India falls (which it won’t lol), you would be a pathetic excuse for a human. No one will take you or your thoughts seriously. You would be carrying on the ideology of a long lost culture that would hold no import in the grand scheme of things. Do you see people subscribing to Greek philosophy besides those historians and Western intellectuals (a small minority)?

And I find it sickening that you side with the West. There is nothing of value here. All you see is ignorance, chauvinism, bigotry, and etc. Spirituality can never take hold with such unconscious biases. The West too is failing; economies are starting to droop and China is once again reclaiming its position at the top of the world. Hatred and frustration in general is on the rise.

Why do gurus go to the West? Because the teachings they preach are in direct contradiction with Western societal dogma. Therefore, there is a great spiritual harvest to be gained. Besides, the same organizations and derivative ideologies you see taking hold in the West are taking hold in India. I don’t see what you are talking about. Much of my family back there opines similarly.

reaswaran · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49432]I am not arguing against progress or modernization, but modernization needs to be on ones own terms. India was not modernized naturally, rather it was forced to adopt a foreign culture, which replaced everything Indian. Hence there is nothing Indian left in India. It is all Western.

None of India’s traditional systems were obsolete. At the time the British arrived its education system, healthcare, industry, social systems were the finest in the world. It was a heavily industralized coutry producing high quality textiles, gems, spices, steel, ships and was renown all over the world. You can research British reports on how highly Indian goods were regarded, they had almost legendary status. It has already beaten Europe to the development of rocketry and cannons, and there is no doubt that it would have had an industrial and technological revolution. However, before this could happen Indian industry and education was wiped out by the British, ending its industrial and literary culture.

The Indian systems were so good that Britain adapted all its systems into its own culture. They adapated Indian steel production methods, ship building methods, textile methods, India’s education system and its medical methods. In the social sciences they adapted its philosophies and linguistic sciences. Practically all of Western linguistics is plagiarised from Indian linguistics.

Even today Indian systems are still superior to the Western systems. Indian goods which are made using traditional methods are still very high quality and fine. India’s healthcare and management systems Ayurveda and Yoga are still highly sought after in the world and one can still do degrees in these subjects today. India’s education system, which consisted of compulsory subjects like the six systems of philosophy, Sanskrit grammar and logic would still produce more literatre, progressive and critical thinkers today. India’s music is still the most complex, developed and scientific today. India’s metaphysical sciences such as Vedanta and Samkhya are appreciated by the highest Western intellectuals, and considered the best.

There is still a massive demand in the world for Indian things - except by Indians themselves in India, who want Western things. They cannot appreciate their own culture. To them anything that is non-Indian is cool and trendy. Western fashion and media. Japanese electronics. Chinese and Italian food. This is why they are a hopeless people, because they lack their own unique identity.

If there is any hope for India they need to go back to their roots and replace all the Western systems in India with modernized Indian systems. However, as ironic as this sounds, this is more likely to happen in the West itself than it is in India. The West will Indianize, while India will westernize. What India does not realise that Westernization leads to destruction. This is exactly where the West are today at a point of complete and total social, moral, economic and philosophical collapse.[/QUOTE]

Indian Industry was labour intensive Surya. And labour was exploited. I remember when I was young, the labour at my ancestral home in Kerala were paid next to nothing for toiling the whole day on the land. A few cups of coffee and a meal plus whatever little money my Granddad felt like paying. The scene on the industrial belt was the same. I would think that Indan products like silk and handicrafts (which are very high quality) were regarded well, but production numbers were pathetic because of the methodology of production. To take the example that you have given Steel. Yes India used to manufacture excellent steel- witness the famous Thanjavur Cannon. Some of the best swords in the world are rumoured to have used Indian Steel. Granted all that, but this was all labour intensive and produced low quantities. The paradigm shift took place when the Bessemer process came into place. The old methods simply were no longer viable.

I do agree that the degree of westernisation that we are seeing in India is too high for comfort. But I also see the very strong sense of spirituality that is present in a lot of Indians including those in the modern cities like Mumbai where I spent more than a decade.

I think we are at a precipice- but I am sure that we will come out all the stronger for it. The next decade will see India showing the way of “Life” to other nations. We may borrow what is good from them, but we will in no way be lesser than them.

Surya_Deva · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

Hehe, Neitzsche. I knew we were going to clash on this point at some point. That is fine it will prove to the forum we do not just blindly follow each other, but have our own unique and critical mind.

I am not Hindutva, because I do not believe in nationalism. I am a true Santana dharmin and Vedic Aryan in that I accept the universal human religion. In fact it is safe to my religion is humanity. I am not Indian. I am a human being. In my many lives I may have assumed countless identities: English, African, Chinese, Native American and Indian. What is common to all? Humanity.

At your age I also use to strongly cling onto national identity and see myself strongly as Indian. Then over time, I matured. I realised that first and foremost I was human. And I was part of a wider human family. My sense of self expanded to encompass all humanity and not just one geographical reigion.

You are blinded by patriotism for India to see the obvious flaws in Indian society and the obvious merits of Western society. I have no such bias because I have no patriotism for any nation. I have shared empathy though with the rest of humanity. I want humanity to progress, and not just one region to progress.

You trumpet India’s so called rising? Rising towards what? India is at a stage that America was at a few decades ago. It is developing a middle class of consumers who want pubs and bars, multiplexes, gadgets and all the underpinings of what America’s common man has today. And where is America today? At the brink of economic, social and philosophical collapse. Is this what India wants? India is going through exactly the same process America went through where the rich are getting very rich and powerful and the gap between the rich and the poor is widening. Sure, for the rich upper class Indian India is rising for sure, but for the 70% of Indians who cannot afford their lifestyle, barely any benefit is accuring. They still live mostly in rural and underdeveloped areas without adequate electricity, clean drinking water and proper education.

Can you really say India is in great position when everyday a terrorist attack take places in the country? Where in every state there is a succession and separatist movement? When it is surrounded by enemies on all sides: Pakistan, China, Bangladesh. To the realist India is in an alarming situation.
The fact is clear and it was recently in the news as well that China claims the entire state of Arunchal Pradesh as “South Tibet” It has built high speed railways to this region and recently conducted exercise where tens of thousands of troops were immediately mobilized on the Indian border directly from Beijing. This is a clear indicator of war preparations. The war rhetoric has even started with Chinese troops regularly making incursions into the territory and marking the territory as Chinese. Chinese warships regularly sail into Indian waters to undermine the Indian psyche.

Indian military strategic experts can see what is brewing between India and China, even if you cannot. You have misplaced confidence that the West would run to the aid of India if China attacked, but actually the West is just as scared of China as everybody else. They would not risk a war with China for the sake of India. Be realistic.

Regarding Indis vs West today in spirituality. In which part of the part is the most cutting edge research being done into consciousness studies? The West. The field of transpersonal psychology is full of Western psychologists and reseachers and major Western universities are now seriously doing research in this. In which part of the world has parapsychological sciences, OBE and NDE research been done? The West. Which part of the world has the most human and civil rights movemenets? The West.

I am sorry I am not blind, I can clearly see that the West leads in world spirituality today and is doing the most research in this field. Hence why the new-age movement, which is a spiritual revolution in its infancy is taking place in the West and not in India. India is a developing country; the West is a developed country.

Virtually every Indian I have met is highly materialistic. It is easy to see by just walking into a bookshop in India. The bookshop is full of books on how to pass your exams, engineering, computing, programming, medicine. In the wee corner there is a section on mind-body and spirit that nobody barely goes to. In a Western bookshop, the mind body section is massive, because there is a market for it.

I often have to teach Indians what their own religion, culture, way of life and history was. Most are not interested and tell me, “I don’t care, for me life is about making money and working” Others realise how ignorant they were all this time. Ironically, I am more likely to find a Westerner who understand karma, chakras, astral body and meditates etc, than I am an Indian.

India is a sinking ship mate. It has been culturally dead for the last 200 years. Which part of India is still Indian?

Surya_Deva · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

You are still talking about post-colonial times here when Indian industrial culture had been replaced by Western industrial culture. Western industrial culture indeed is exploitative because it is aimed at the generation of profit, which necessitates the undercutting of labour costs. In pre-colonial times it was not like this, Indian goods were produced using traditional methods and only enough goods were produced to sustain Indian society. In other words the philosophy here is not one of exploitating labour and generating profit, but one of functionalism.

This is the difference between Indian culture and Western culture. Indian culture is a functional society and Western culture is a conflict society. Indians only produced enough goods to meet the functional requirements of their society, and because there was no emphasis on mass production, more and more resources could be allocated to the production of high quality goods. Hence why Indians goods were of exceptional quality.

Indian society was full of very skilled labour in pre-colonial times, but when the British abolished India’s traditional crafts and industries, they were left unemployed and had to resort to out of the need to survive menial jobs and agrian industry. The statistics actually show clearly that India was a more industrial economy in pre-colonial times, than it is today.

I would think that Indan products like silk and handicrafts (which are very high quality) were regarded well, but production numbers were pathetic because of the methodology of production. To take the example that you have given Steel. Yes India used to manufacture excellent steel- witness the famous Thanjavur Cannon. Some of the best swords in the world are rumoured to have used Indian Steel. Granted all that, but this was all labour intensive and produced low quantities. The paradigm shift took place when the Bessemer process came into place. The old methods simply were no longer viable.

You see quantity is not an issue for a society that is not looking to generate profit. A society that is looking just to meets its functional needs aims for quality rather than quantity. This is why Indian crafts, arts and industries and traditional systems are so refined, and still produce the finest goods today. If India were to revert back to these systems, but bought them up to date with modern technology, India would once again become highly prosperous.

The foundation of any society is its education system. Western education system reproduces the values of capitalism and is there to train you to become an employee. It is easy to see in India how Indians do courses in software engineering, multimedia etc, only so they can get employed by big companies. Thus Indians are bred to be materialists. The Indian education system reproduced the values of dharmic culture in order to cultivate you to become a human being. So it was compulsory to study Sanskrit grammar, Indian philosophy and logic. Imagine how India would be today if this education system was still in place. This education system in the past lead to a highly prosperous literary culture which made massive contributions in science, technology and arts. Today, India is not a pioneer in anything.

I do agree that the degree of westernisation that we are seeing in India is too high for comfort. But I also see the very strong sense of spirituality that is present in a lot of Indians including those in the modern cities like Mumbai where I spent more than a decade.

It is there for very natural reasons. Indians are poor and they want to be rich. A poor person does not strive for spirituality, they strive for material comforts. This is why it has been my consistent experience with Indians both abroad and in the homeland, of finding highly materialistic Indians. I have seldom come across an Indian that is spiritual. If you meet a random Indian on a train these are the questions you tend to get asked “What is your job, what is your salary, are you married, what is your education” I never get asked, “What is your philosophy, what are your beliefs, what are your hobbies” When I tell Indians I have a degree in Philosophy, while most Western people find it interesting, Indian people ask me condescendingly “What job can you do with a degree in philosophy”

Indians are highly materialistic people through and through. Finding spiritual Indians is like looking for a diamond amongst a sea of coal.

I think we are at a precipice- but I am sure that we will come out all the stronger for it. The next decade will see India showing the way of “Life” to other nations. We may borrow what is good from them, but we will in no way be lesser than them.

So far it is the other way around. It is Indians chasing everything Western: food, music, fashion, lifestyle, language etc etc. I don’t really see Indians teaching the West anything. Do not forget India is a developing country and the West is a developed country. It is the West that is leading India and not the other way around. Even in spirituality, the West has taken from India its Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedas and is now teaching India.

If there is anything you should take out of my critcisms of India, is not anger as Neitzsche has responded, but a resolve to put those things I am criticising in India right. Awaken India to its own traditional culture and heritage. However, you will find the effort futile, because Indians simply don’t care. It is natural: they want wealth. When they have wealth, then they will become spiritual again. But then it might be too late and Indians might be speaking Chinese

Surya_Deva · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

[QUOTE=High Wolf;49401]Hinduism will vanish from the face of this planet. A new generation of humans is coming alive, clad in a spiritual dress and blessed with long life. In future there will moreover be new religions, for good or evil, difficult to see…

Yet nobility will never vanish. I think you are too afraid of losing the spiritual anticipation provided by Hinduism. Have some faith in the world, in tree, in rock, in sea, in clouds… there are other forces in work in this world…unfathomable forces…[/QUOTE]

It is impossible Hinduism could ever completely vanish from this planet. As long as humans are on this planet, Hinduism will remain. As Hinduism is the human religion. It is a religion where the human is at the centre.

The natural human religion addresses the human self and the development of the human. As long as humans are on this planet, they will constantly strive for development and therefore one day discover Hinduism themselves. Such as discover the methods of Yoga, the truths of Atman and Brahman, karma and reincarnation, dharma and Samkhya.

Science naturally leads to Hinduism. It is inevitable a scientific society will sooner or later discover Hinduism.

Surya_Deva · March 10, 2017, 8:28pm

Not to sound like a broken record player, but Hinduism is not limited to any geography. It has no chosen people. It has no founder. It has no clergy. Just as science is not limited to any geography, has no chosen people and has no clergy. Hinduism and science are one and the same thing. Just as science belongs to all of humanity, Hinduism belongs to all of humanity.

In Hindu records itself it records the rise and fall of civilisations throughout the yugas. The centres of the world are constantly changing. If at one time the centre was the Native Americans, then at another time it was India, at another time it was the Middle East and today it is the West. Tomorrow it maybe China(indeed this is what Chinese want) This is why one should not become too attached to a particular centre. One should emphasise with their wider human identity. In this life you are born an Indian Neitzsche, in the next life you maybe born Chinese. Why waste your time and energy on such temporal things?

What did Krishna say to Arjuna in the Gita regarding temporal attachments to earthly things? That they are not worth the worry. They are temporal and changing because this is verily the nature of material reality. If you base your life and your decisions on what is temporal and changing then they you will surely suffer. Instead, base your life and decisions on the eternal. That which does not change. Santana dharma. Rather than wasting all your time and energy on just one country, contribute that same energy to bringing dharma on this planet again. The Vedas say very clearly, “Make the whole world Aryan” Why are you only interested in India? Is India the entire world?

Nietzsche · March 10, 2017, 8:29pm

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49476]Hehe, Neitzsche. I knew we were going to clash on this point at some point. That is fine it will prove to the forum we do not just blindly follow each other, but have our own unique and critical mind.