[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49588]These are not mutually exclusive things Neitzsche. I do not at all deny that Indians have a very strong work ethic. They are very similar to how Western people were many decades ago, because they understand that the only way to succeed in this capitalist world is to work very hard and get an education. Since, these values have degenerated in Western society because people have achieived their comforts and have started to take their comforts for granted. On the other hand, people in third world countries do not take these things for granted and work very hard. This ties into Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Those who have the material comforts, want more than material comforts. Those who do not have the material comforts, strive for material comforts.
Spirituality does not thrive in poor countries. Every poor country in this world has some things in common: corruption, illiteracy, superstition and materialism. Again, it needs to be pointed out the most spiritual civilisation on this Earth were the Hindus and they were also the most wealthiest civilisation on Earth until the 18th century. When their wealth was gone, what happened? They lost their spirituality.
Spirituality will never take afoot in India until Indians have material comforts. This is why it is a futile trying to spiritualize Indians. They simply will not listen to you. If I go to a poor chaiwala on the streets of Mumbai and teach him Yoga and Vedanta, he will simply tell me, "Sir, thank you, but I don't have time for Yoga and Vedanta" There is a saying, "Do not throw pearls before swines" and "Do not play the flute in front of the bull" Indians are not receptive at this stage to receive spirituality. When they reach the material comforts, then they will become receptive again.
Pubs, bars and clubs, malls, multiplexe etc are appearing all over the landscape of India. I have been to many myself. It is very clear India is becoming a fully fledged consumerist society exactly how the West was a few decades ago.
No, I do not know 1.1 Billion Indians. But what I do know is my own experiences and the experiences of others who have been to India. In addition I also know about the statistics which show human development and India is one of the lowest. Indeed, it is true most Indians are not indulging in night life activities, because most cannot afford it. It is the rising middle class that is doing this. Those who can afford it, such as upper-middle class youth do indeed frequent pubs, bars, malls and multiplexies. There is a market for them this is why they are appearing all over the cities of India. There is no market for them in rural places, hence there are none there. The rural people do of course dream of city-life.
India very much is like what America was like a few decades ago. When the middle class was emerging the rural population migrated into the cities in order to chase the "American dream" Now Indians are too chasing the "American dream" What is happening is perfectly natural human psychology. Indians are poor - they want to be rich.
Nope, they are in no position to attack India by themselves. However, if there was a Chinese-Indian war, they would be in a position to join in. It is more or less a given that if India goes to war with either China, Pakistan or Bangladesh, that the others would form an alliance agaisnt India.
I will give you links by geopolitical and military experts which show clearly the evidence is pointing towards a Chinese-Indian war:
http://www.examiner.com/ny-in-new-york/india-is-preparing-for-possible-war-with-china-and-pakistan
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/12/31/alert-indian-army-ready-for-war-against-china-and-pakistan-simultaneously/
Random articles:
http://newsflavor.com/opinions/china-preparing-for-a-war-against-india-and-us/
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Indian+ex-defense+chief+accuses+China+of+preparing+for+war.-a0242100866
The evidence is clearly pointing to a two-front war of China and Pakistan(with obvious help from Bangladesh) against India. India would have to defend both its northen border against Pakistan and its eastern border with China and Bangladesh simultaneously. It does not stand a chance.
This will not be only a regional war though, this will more than certainly embroil the rest of the world. We are basically seeing the beginnings of World War III. India, the past centre of the world will be completely wiped out.
Exactly, a war between India and China, will somehow get the Western world involved, because India is now a key ally of the West. They will not exactly run to its aid, but they will get involved because India falling under Chinese occupation would give China an unprecedented edge in global power which would simply be unacceptable to the Western powers as it would spell their demise.
Yes, it is obvious the religious section in a Western bookship would be filled with Abrahamic stuff, because it is their own tradition. However, there is also a large section on what is termed mind-body and spirit or basically new-age spirituality which is signicantly large because there is a market for it. In India, the section on Yoga and philosophy is quite small, because there is no market for it. The section on engineering, physics, medicine, mathematics, business and programming is massive though. Agaiin, because Indians are highly materialistic people.
It is prevalent enough to be making an impact on the mainstream now. It can be seen very clearly in Western society how much the new-age movement is starting to change the landscape of the West. In fact notice the media itself, the increased frequency of paranormal programming on television: ghost investigations, magic and its representation in mainstream movies. In academia, univerisities as big as Stanford research institute commision research into parapsychology. Slowly, but surely, the West is spiritualizing.
It is consistent with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Once you have satisified your material comforts you tend towards spirituality. This is why I keep saying it is inevitable that the world will become Hindu sooner or later.
No, the fact that there are civil and humanistic movements within the West is an indication that the need for change and social progress is acknowledged in the West and it is happening gradually. This is why in the course of the 20th century there have been massive changes such as the sexual revolution, counter-cultural movement, feminist movement. This indeed leads to the fragmentation of the family, debauchery and high divorce rates, but out of this chaos comes a reordering of society. On the other hand, in societies like India, where there are rampant problems with of gender inequality, caste discrimination, the recognition for social change is not there, which means that change does not take place as rapidly. This is why India has been able to retain its conservative values. But this landscape is now changing with the rise of the middle class.
Neitzsche, my race is the human race. There is no such thing as Indian race, Western race, African race, Chinese race. We are all the same species: humanity. Then surely the plight of humanity is more important than the plight of the West, Africans, Chinese or Indians? I am looking at the bigger problems that face the world that is common most of the world: capitalism and the Abrahamic ideology it is associated with.
I recognise what is wrong with this world today and that is the world has become overrun with a desert culture and mentality. This culture and mentality needs to be exposed and be rid of once and for all. Then out of this process of destruction will come the creation of a new social order based on a scientific ethos - or basically a dharmic ethos.
India is not at all the solution to this, because India is perhaps one of the biggest proponents of this desert culture and mentality today. It celeberates capitalism and is unabashedly capitalist and this clear from every institution in Indian society - even the temples. Capitalists are seen as heroes in India. Saying something bad against capitalism in India is almost a thought crime. This is why India cannot be changed until it has explores its dreams for wealth(which will most likely be cut short by China)
Where change can happen is where the most progress can be seen on the planet - the West. The West are sick of capitalism themselves, and I know this is true because there is a sizable group of Western people who are rising against capitalism. Hence the riots taking place in the West. They are rejecting their Abrahamic religions and embracing Eastern dharmic religions. They are ripe for a spiritual revolution. Join the revolution. Through the West the revolution will come. Our gurus know this and hence why they have each set up their operations in the West. America will be the new spiritual centre of the world for the future. The old is about to destroyed - and India will be the first to go.[/QUOTE]
Precisely. So how can you question the reverse trend in Western society, where ignorance, hedonism, and decline in morals and spirituality are taking place? The West is not immune to such things Surya. It is clear to me though that you have experienced a far different slice of the West than I have.
They might have lost their spirituality but most certainly not their potential for spirituality. Indians have the unique propensity for being spiritual, even more so than any other race in the world. This temperament is on the rise once again Surya Deva. The middle class often has the most debauched and the most spiritually and intellectually craving people. The same was true of America back in the days of its Industrial Revolution and of any society in general. It is this characteristic I have noticed the most in Indians these days. It is clear that we have experienced different slices of India as well.
And do you think I will get different results if I did the same thing with a sexually starved teenager? He will probably say “Nah, girls are just too hot.” Once again, you fail to account for the fact that since the West is jaded with material comforts, spirituality is on the decline. It is often the rapidly developing countries (provided that their cultures and political systems are receptive enough cough China cough) that have the greatest potential for spirituality. If the same thing was done to the poor man, but this time by someone who took the effort to ameliorate his life, he would probably listen.
What other choice does India have in this matter? It cannot hope to compete with the rest of the world with an idealistic political and economic system. You remind me too much of those many Americans who attempted to start utopian societies (but failed miserably in the end; one such community ended up becoming a capitalist company for the manufacture of kitchen utensils).
I also know my own experiences and the experiences of others who have been to India. You see my family is one of the richest ones in Hyderabad. They are well known throughout the city and even have many connections with those who run the city (one of my uncles is the head of some department there). They too are privy to such statistics Surya. My family runs many businesses and come across a far greater variety of Indians than you can imagine. Any given middle classes is most hedonistic and yet intellectually/spiritually craving class of society. I hear many reports of how exciting the recent festival was, or the pleasant surprise a visiting swami caused, how popular the recent Yoga-fair-thing was, and what not. Once again, can you provide me valid statistics that prove your point? Sure, India may have one of the lowest human development conditions, but it also has some of the fastest human development rates. It is just that the number of poor people in India makes it hard to perceive such differences on a short scale.
Agreed.
Oh yes, this I cannot deny.
I will look at the links when I have time sometime during the day.
And it is also obvious that considering I live in one of the most highly sought after communities in the U.S (with a very rich population and what not), something is wrong. According to you, the bookshelves should be filled with books on spirituality, considering these people are materially satisfied. This is not the case. The religion and philosophy section are the most lacking sections in terms of the content and the number of people who visit the section. On any given day, I am the only one who is in this section. Besides, I knew this girl at school whose mom ran a Bikram Yoga class at the local mall. It is one of the most highly visited places in the community. And yet most of the people I came across in the community are woefully ignorant of Hinduism and Indian culture. Even the girl in question once asked me “Do you worship a mutant god?” Once again, regional variations.
The fascination for the paranormal has always been there in Western media. And, there is a point where people get tired of classic monster movies and television programming. Such a shift is not indicative of a transformation but of a trend with a boom and bust cycle. Besides, the thing I see most of the time in American programming is 2012, end-of-the-world crap, biblical apocalypse, and what not. Again, it’s a trend bound to die out some time or another. And I could have sworn I saw you say “Those who have the material comforts, want more than material comforts,” a statement in direct contradiction with “Once you have satisfied your material comforts you tend towards spirituality.” Regardless, the latter is a false statement. When civilizations reach their climax, they tend to decline in every way possible. It happened with China, Rome, India, Greece, and so forth. The West is no exception.
But why do such movements arise? It is because the West has tumultuous societies and dogmatic ideals in the first place. And such changes are not acknowledged when they happen. The Industrial Giants in America did not acknowledge the formation of labor unions, movements for a shorter work time, more wages, and other worker’s rights since it supposedly would have been detrimental to their accumulation of wealth. American society did not acknowledge the abolitionists movements in America and actually labeled them as “disrupters of peace.” Southern society did not acknowledge the Civil Rights movement of Martin Luther King and did everything it could to undermine it. The male-dominated society did not approve of women’s rights for centuries and certainly did not acknowledge the women’s protests for voting rights. In fact, the problem in the West is that such changes are not welcome and acknowledged in their times. They are fought tooth-and-nail and to the last breath by the oppressed who are sick of their centuries of oppression. In fact, only when the oppressed manage to get their representatives in the political system and get the public to side with them (but that rarely happens since such protests always annoy the masses) does any change arise. Then they are slowly accepted. Very slowly. Even today, many whites I come in across in the Deep South still view blacks as stupid, barbaric, and etc. As for India, the landscape is indeed changing, and very quickly because the tendency for change in our society is ingrained (how many religious reforms have we had so far SD? I lose count a lot) and because we were a former colonized nation that forever has to live with the reminder that they were a rich nation reduced to the depths of poverty due to their ignorance and lack of awareness. This realization will allow the country to grow, grow in a way it has never had before.
But there is such a thing. How many people do you come across that do not identify them as such? Your views are far too idealistic Surya Deva. I understand your views and know you mean well but they will make no impact whatsoever. Only when every nation and every race has risen from the abyss of squalor and oppression will the world be inclined to see and test the validity of other’s ways and go beyond the notions of “black, white, and etc.” But that day is, alas, too many a blue moon away. Your efforts to rid the world of this mentality will only go so far in our present times. The most we can do is plant the idea for now and let it germinate and flower within passing generations. The most we can do now is to intellectually impugn and weaken these ideologies. Other than that, nothing else can be done. Have you already tried going to China and telling someone “There is no White, black, Chinese, Indian, Christian…”?
I see your point. It is often the case with developing countries. Then again, a development in capitalism is not necessarily a decline in the potential for spirituality. One always has to look at the cultural and societal contexts.
The West has had a history of having groups opposed to capitalism, but where did that lead to? Communism, the main opponent, has miserably failed. Even if Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, and what not were not practicing communism as Marx envisioned it, the very idea of going against capitalism and democracy has been indelibly tainted at the idea of being associated with these failed nations. Even China, at one point, had to give up its communist roots and become capitalist. At this time, no repudiation of capitalism is possible. Even its opponents agree that capitalism is beneficial for economic growth.
Spiritual revolution? Surya, this revolution is that of societal collapse. Through the West, only chaos will come. You think this revolution will leave the economic and political systems intact while changing the religious and spiritual ideology? You are wrong. It will affect all parts of society and all walks of life. America is like Rome after its Pax Romana. It is slowly but surely falling. If this spiritual revolution comes, which I highly doubt, the winners would be starting from a state of economic and societal squalor and will ultimately fail. I would rather be associated with the developing countries that, like the new moon, have much potential to enlarge and grow (and will have in the event that such a revolution happens).
