How many bodies do we have, really...?

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#19

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;68239]The reason that different literature mentions a different number of ‘bodies’ is because they classify the bodies differently, but they are aiming at the same concept: reality is multidimensional. This means every body in reality whether it be the human being, an insect, a plant or a rock exists across a spectrum of reality spanning many dimensions. It has a counterpart on every level/dimension. Each level is a higher vibrational density than the other. According to classical Samkhya there are 7*7 or 49 levels of vibrational density of original matter. Of these 49 levels there are 7 distinct planes of reality, where matter behaves in a coherent and predictable way.

Classical Samkhya does not go into detail on what those 7 planes of reality are, but more details can be found in Vedanta and Puranic literature. In Vedanta the emphasis is more on the human body and it is broken down into 5 main dimensions. In other words there really is no such thing as many bodies, there is only one body but that body has many dimensions. They are:

The physical or space and time dimension
The energy or quantum dimension
The mental or information dimension
The intellectual or process dimensiom
The bliss or consciousness dimension

These 5 dimensions are classified in Vedanta according to 3 states of consciousness and 3 states of matter: waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep and gross, subtle and causal.[/QUOTE]

Although I have not read any of the texts cited, this is my sense of the body. Each dimension can be subdivided infinitely, I am sure.

Wouldn’t it be a bummer, though, if all this great thinking was for naught and all we really are is a bag of flesh, blood and bone and an overactive imagination? :-o :stuck_out_tongue:

#20

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;68239] According to classical Samkhya there are 7*7 or 49 levels of vibrational density of original matter. Of these 49 levels there are 7 distinct planes of reality, where matter behaves in a coherent and predictable way.
[/QUOTE]

Talk about wanting to create a mystique about Eastern philosphy, this is complete and utter fiction. It does however show the influence of Samkhya. Every crackpot idea claims to be Samkhya, in order to try to establish some credibility, because it was so widely accepted in the ancient world.

#21

Theory and practice is like chicken and egg; hard to say which comes first. But in Yoga Sutra practice did precede the theory. That makes “astral” and “causal” as mere labels to attached to an experience that however stands as truth. Labels enable sharing of the experience. Where experience is not the basis of exchange only labels prevail. And that is a pointless debate.

#22

Wouldn’t it be a bummer, though, if all this great thinking was for naught and all we really are is a bag of flesh, blood and bone and an overactive imagination?

We are that too, but of course we realise there is more going on within us. Emotions and sensations, thoughts, desires, awarenesss. These are all taking place in different dimensions of reality, but their activity has a counterpart on every level. As far as our current scientific knowledge we are only aware so far of 2 of 5 of the dimensions recognized in the the theory of koshas: space-time and quantum. But the discovery of the quantum dimension is a huge revelation in science. Now we are aware of how information can and does travel outside of space-time and how the same takes place in the brain. We are aware of how networks can be created on the quantum level to transmit and receive information, which is not very far off from the the theory of chakras, nadis, prana.

There is somewhat a nod by scientists today to an informational dimension of reality(3 of 5) where the entire universe exists as pure information, like some kind of cosmic matrix. At this level all past, present and future events exist as one.

#23

The best classification I?ve seen so far comes from Alice Bailey & Theosophy:

Monad
Atma
Buddhi
Manas {Higher Manas and Lower Manas
Astral Body
Physical Body {Etheric and Dense

This chart from A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, Alice Bailey explains the subject:

The Constitution of Man

#24

[QUOTE=YogaPrem;68016]Some sources use the term ‘body’ interchangeably with ‘kosha’ or sheath and generally name five: Annamaya, Pranamaya, Manomaya, Vijnanamaya and Anandamaya…which is probably not much help to a novice but will give you another facet of yoga to explore.

So much to learn and so little time in which to do it.[/QUOTE]

:p:p:p

#25

Here, this may help.

#26

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/moksh/moksh_09.html Here is another very good resource from Swami Krishnananda that explains the 5 koshas and relates them to the concept of subtle bodies. It follows fairly closely the document in the previous post, but with a few seemingly minor but important differences.

First observation: Swami Krishnananda does not use the term astral body. He calls it the subtle body, but relates it to the Pranamaya, Manomaya, and Vijnanamaya koshas as does the previous post.

Second observation: The koshas are explained in terms of Samkhya principles, up to the point of the Anandamaya kosha. The swami uses words like guna, indriya, manas, and buddhi to to explain how the koshas are constituted. These are all Samkhya terms.

Third observation: The swami correlates the Anandamaya kosha to the causal body, but at this point, the correlation to Samkhya principles stops. Instead, he says that the Anandamaya kosha is composed of Avidya, or ignorance. In my view this is the correct interpretation. The previous document correlates Anandamaya kosha to Buddhi, which I believe is an error.

#27

This is a very important subject indeed.

#28

The name “astral” body is mainly used in western esotericism. The name comes from the fact, that this so called body is actually a kind of space traveller, and every night it returns to it’s home, the astral plane of existence, or should I say, sphere.

The astral sphere denotes the lowest spiritual realm, and to be more precise, this is the space the astral body goes to during the night. But because looking from earth, this sphere appears as up, and with the starry sky as a background, the name astral is correct, especially for the sensorial westerners. (astra = stars, in latin) The other realms are said to be the lower and upper devachan. I am sure, that the oriental teachings have the corresponding rupas.

In the sheat, or kosha structure, the astral body would correspond to manomaya kosha.

All apparent divergences come form the fixed nature of any earthy teaching. These teachings are like pictures of a great tree. They only ever show a single point of view. Add the fact that the tree is growing, as everything in the universe - yes even gods develop - and your best bet is to find a genuine school of thought, directed or ruled from the position of actual seership, and one of high level. Many people today have gained various insights into the lower levels of existence, to make things even more complicated. Add the fact that every wrong notion, concept and mental image stands there as a being in the spiritual world, and you might imagine the hardships a genuine seeker of truth must face. In this, the mumbo-jumbo part of yoga or even the moral teachings of religions will help you tremendously, while asana will have very little effect.

#29

There is a series of books by Arthur Powell, which are a compilation of several books by Annie Besant and C.W. Leadbeater, published by the Theosophycal Society, that gives much detail on the bodies of man. They are freely available on the Internet, already in public domain, for they are books from the beginning of XX Century.

The Etheric Double (1925)
The Astral Body and Other Astral Phenomena (1926)
The Mental Body (1927)
The Causal Body And The Ego ( 1928 )

This another book completes the series, and gives a summary on the evolution of the Solar System:

The Solar System (1930)

Theosophy is largely based on Hindu Classics, plus the important contribution of modern Theosophists, such as Annie Besant, C.W. Leadbeater and Alice Bailey, who made clear the obscure points, organized the teachings of past ages, and added important corroboration from their own mystical experiences, under the guidance of some Ascended Masters, mainly Kuthumi, El Morya, St. Germain and Djwal Khul, the Tibetan.
Blavatsky was the founder of Theosophy but her successors made the things more clear.

#30

According to Theosophy and Alice Bailey, the Physical Body is thus composed:

Dense part

Composed by matter from the three lower sub-planes of Physical Plane: Solid, Liquid, Gaseous.
This is the part we see, and can be studied in Anatomy and Physiology books.

Etheric part

Composed by matter from the four higher sub-planes of Physical Plane: Etheric, Super-Etheric, Sub-Atomic, Atomic.
The Permanent Physical Atom is located in the Atomic sub-plane, and it is the Atom which forms the next body in the next incarnation, according to its evolution and the individual Karma.
Every evolutive effort related to the Physical Body is engraved in this Atom, and forms the basis of the new physical body in the next incarnation.

This part Etheric of the Physical Body is not visible, except if one have Physical Clairvoyance developed, an Yoga Siddhi.

In this Etheric part is located the Chacras and the Acupuncture Meridians.
When the death of the Physical Body occurs, this Etheric part is dissolved as well, and only the Physical Body Permanent Atom goes to the Causal Body, also called Higher Mental Body.

#31

The Astral Body, or Emotional Body, called Kama in Hindu literature, is located in the Astral Plane, and it is the lowest body the Monad have after the death of the Physical Body. It is identical to the Physical Body, since the Physical is a perfect copy of the Astral Body.
There are reports in Spiritualism literature of people who dies and don?t perceive that are dead, since everything continues as usual. The person is then only with the Astral Body.
Many may have had experiences at night of dreams when see oneself sleeping on the bed, or vivid dreams. This is what is called Astral Projection, or Astral Journey.

#32

It’s this kind of stuff that we’re trying to weed out here. The original question was concerned with what are the traditional yoga teachings on the matter. I think we’ve established that the traditional teachings consist of the koshas, from the Upanishads, and the subtle body.

#33

It doesn?t seem to me a wise thing to weed out teachings which clarifies traditional yoga teachings on the matter, often confuse and incomplete.

#34

It gets confusing when you try to tally the different descriptions of the bodies to each other, especially cross-cultural descriptions. Each system has classified them differently, but the idea is generally the same.

The Samkhya system of the subtle body is also explained like this in Vedanta:

5 elements = Gross body
5 subtle elements, 5 sense organs, 5 action organs, mind, ego, intellect = Subtle body
chitta(storehouse of memories) = Causal body

The Theosophical system is confusing, because basically it is a synthesis of the Upanishadic koshas, Samkhya subtle body and Western esotericism(Kabbalah etc)

#35

I think that a most useful thing to do when studying spiritual teachings from different cultures is try to correlate one to another. That was the central purpose of Theosophy, but they have failed to some extant, and became centered in Hindu teachings.
Alice Bailey later mended a bit the situation, clarifying a little more the Hindu teachings, and relating them to Christian Mysticism.

In the time of the Hermetic Order of Golden Dawn, an attempt was made to elaborate a table of correspondences between the different systems, and Aleister Crowley developed it a little more and named it the book 777. However, it is a much flawed table of correspondences, but the intent was good and gave the example of what should be done.

If people of different cultures are describing the same object there are no reason for much discrepancies. For example, an Anatomy Atlas issued in Japan will not be much different from one issued in U.S. since the physical body of a japanese is identical to an american, except a few details in eye shape, etc.

The same applies to the bodies of man, there is no reason for great discrepancies between the several cultures, if all are at the same basic level of understanding of the matter.

Let?s make an attempt to correlate the Five Koshas teachings with Theosophy, which by the way is basically Hindu as well.

Samkhya…Theosophy

Physical - Annamaya kosha…Physical Body - Dense part

Energy - Pranamaya kosha…Physical Body - Etheric part

Mental - Manamaya kosha …Astral Body and Concrete (Lower) Mental Body

Wisdom - Vijnanamaya kosha…Bhuddi

Bliss - Anandamaya kosha…Abstract (Higher) Mental Body or Causal Body

It seems that Samkhya places Anandamaya as the most interior of the koshas while Theosophy places Bhuddi as the most interior. This is something so be clarified but I prefer Theosophy classification, which we must remember is based in Hindu Classics as well.

Thus these are the five koshas or sheats which envelops the Atman, the Self, according to Samkhya. We may see that a correspondence is perfectly possilbe.

Atman according to Samkhya thus is the Self. It is not, according to the Upanishads. But this is another story.

#36

Yeah, there is nothing wrong with the above classification either. It corresponds more or less neatly. The only part that I find confusing is the difference between the etheric double and the astral body?

Anandamaya kosha has already been confusing to me. It is called the bliss-body because it is the body which is closest to the Atman(in Samkhya terminology: purusha) which is experienced in deep meditation as satchitananda(truth, bliss, consciousness) the bliss-body is characterized by those qualities. However, it still is not-self, for the self has no attributes or qualities. The bliss-body is basically the highest state of phenomenal and individual existence before one attains unity with the Atman. I think it corresponds more neatly with the notion of ‘higher self’

Atman and higher self are not the same, because while the atman is the the universal self, the higher self is an individual self. In Vedanta terminology the higher self is Jivatman. According to Advaita Vedanta the jivatman is identical with the atman, but other schools of Vedanta maintain there is some difference.

#37

What’s wrong with the above classification is that it confuses the Vedanta theory of Koshas with Samkhya. Although Swami Krishnananda did explain the koshas in terms of Samkhya, it isn’t a Samkhya teaching. Regarding Anandamaya kosha, there is no correspondence to any Samkhya principle. This is a Vedanta teaching for which there is no counterpart in Samkhya.

#38

The Tantrik system has its own classification with the 6, 7 or 8 chakra system, only there is slight difference here, in that the chakras are actually physically located in the body, whereas the koshas are conceptualized as layers outside of the body. Nonetheless, there are correspondences between the koshas and the chakras:

Mooladhara Chakra/Root Chakra corresponds to the Physical body
Swadhistana chakra/Sexual Chakra corresponds to the Physical body and the Energy body
Manipura Chakra/Solar Plexus Chakraa corresponds to the Energy body
Anahata Chakra/Heart Chakra corresponds to the Energy body and the Mental body
Vishuddha chakra/Throat Chakra corresponds to the Mental body
Ajnana Chakra/Third eye chakra corresponds to the Mental body and the Intellectual body
Sahasara Chakra/Crown chakra corresponds to the Intellectual body and the Bliss body

They also categorized in terms of elements:

Root Chakra = Earth
Sexual Chakra = Water
Solar Plexus Chakra = Fire
Heart Chakra = Air
Throat Chakra = Ether
Third Eye chakra = Mind
Crown Chakra = Intellect(Higher Mind)