I am no longer Hindu

There is a saying in India, “He who has nobody, has god”

There are no traditions and viewpoints that satisfy me. I have tried various: Sikh, Atheism and Nihilism, Brahma Kumaris, Ananda Marga Yoga(Tantra Yoga), New Age, Sahaja Yoga, Theosophy, Vipassana, Vedanta, Ananda Kriya Yoga.

I thus have decided to go it alone and design my own path. Ultimately this is what the Vedic sages advise, “Find your own path, don’t walk another’s” so now I am in the process of discovering exactly what my path is. I know I have strong affinities with Vedanta and Samkhya-Yoga and modern science, so I think my path will ultimately be a synthesis of them all. I have learned something from every tradition and viewpoint I have been a part of in the past.

[QUOTE=ejlorge;72969]This thread has degenerated into a 6 page pissing match! … Not saying it hasn’t been a good read, but I would like to get back to the original subject of SD losing his religion.[/QUOTE]

It?s wonderful to witness and refreshing to hear people speak openly from the depths of their passionate desires.

[QUOTE=ejlorge;72969]
So as you said, you were fortunate enough to have been raised a Sikh and in your opinion Sikhism has since gone downhill. (Personally, I still find it to be a potentially very satisfying, enlightened tradition. But I have no experience to back that up.)[/QUOTE]

Is there a religion or philosophy not steeped in dogma?

[QUOTE=ejlorge;72969]In addition, you said that you had some bad experiences in Vedanta centers in India. So this begs the question: If there is no tradition or group out there which resonates with you, what will you do?[/QUOTE]

?How can anybody tell you what you shall become when there is no becoming? You merely discover what you are. All molding oneself to a pattern is a grievous waste of time. Think neither of the past nor of the future; just be.? ~ Maharaj

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;72971]

Is there a religion or philosophy not steeped in dogma?
[/QUOTE]

No, I would say not. But dogma (i.e. Form) isn’t the problem so much as mistaking the dogma for the ultimate truth (i.e. Essence).

I myself am not religious, not because religions entail dogma or ritual, but because I have not found a religion (e.g. cult) which recognizes the peripheral nature of dogma and ritual (if that makes any sense).

Ritual can be a very potent practice, if done responsibly. Mythology is a very potent form of metaphor, if understood correctly.

But they are not the MOST important: Direct Experience for me, is the most important element in gaining spiritual “knowledge”.

[QUOTE=ejlorge;72976]No, I would say not. But dogma (i.e. Form) isn’t the problem so much as mistaking the dogma for the ultimate truth (i.e. Essence).

I myself am not religious, not because religions entail dogma or ritual, but because I have not found a religion (e.g. cult) which recognizes the peripheral nature of dogma and ritual (if that makes any sense).

Ritual can be a very potent practice, if done responsibly. Mythology is a very potent form of metaphor, if understood correctly.

But they are not the MOST important: Direct Experience for me, is the most important element in gaining spiritual “knowledge”.[/QUOTE]

Bhakti is the least of my dispositions however there seems to have been enough successful trial and error that I myself study and practice.

[QUOTE=ejlorge;72976]

Ritual can be a very potent practice, if done responsibly. Mythology is a very potent form of metaphor, if understood correctly.

[/QUOTE]

for me a ritual,

sort of a warmup

before The game.

Namaste.

Ritual and mythology have their place as long as they support an ideal worth having and aspiring for.

We all have our daily rituals. Like getting up from bed, going to the toilet, brushing our teeth, having a shower, getting breakfast. Rituals are needed in daily life, but we need those rituals that will actually bring us great benefit.

We also have our mythology, common stories we tell, like fables like the hare and the tortoise. The stories from Greek mythology are used commonly in philosophical literature to bear our certain points. To this end, the Puranas in Indian literature are useful, so as long as they bear a philosophical truth or a moral worth teaching.

The problem is that in Puranic Hinduis, the ideal is set very low. For many Hindus they are worshiping an actual god. Vaishnaivists worship Vishnu(Lord Krishna according to them) who lives in heaven(Vaikunta) and who rewards and punished, and incarnates on Earth from time to time. Many are awaiting his latest avatar Kalki to come and solve the worlds problems.

Thus they live in a fantasy world and have the childish temperament to back it up. They are simple people of faith and make images of god in their own image, attributing their own qualities onto him. They like fun and frolics, and so does their god; they get angry and sad, and so does their god. They are people of the book, literally reading their scriptures and believing everything within it and reading metaphorically anything within scripture that modern science has disproven e.g., the Puranas mention that the moon is further away from the Earth than the sun. So is Sarva going to accept this fact? Nope, he will reinterpret it.

Sound familiar? Every religionist does that. These people are not morally, intellectually and spiritually any better than an ordinary person, because religion for them is nothing more than a belief system.

Their low ideal is backed up with low mythology and low ritual. Bizarre stories like flying monkeys from millions of years ago, talking fish, immaculate conception. Bizarre rituals like crawling up the stairs of the temple of their god up and down, fasting a number of days to appease their god, ringing temple bells, bashing in temple baths, subjecting themselves to pain or mortification to win the grace of god.

Low ideals, low mythology and low rituals leads to low people. History will testify that religious people have not proved to be any better than non religious people, in fact in most cases religious people have been the most murderous, deceitful, immoral lot. It was a religious people that burned hundreds of thousands of ‘witches’ It was religious people that in modern day India slaughtered each other during the partition. It is these religious people that cause stampedes in India and trample over one another.

Hindus are mostly made up of these low, simple and common folk today.

Then there are high ideals like self-realization. High ideals are backed with high mythology and ritual. High mythology are like the stories told in the Upanishads or the Yoga Vasistha or the Mahabharata(including the Gita) and Ramayana which explain complex philosophical concepts of Vedanta in story form and make them more enjoyable, palpable and understandable. The device of using stories is a common practice known as “Katha” It matters little, whether the story is fictional or non-fictional, but the message behind the story matters. This is why “Purana” is named as the 5th Veda. But that has nothing to do with the sectarian Puranas that we have in our hands today.

High rituals are rituals that will contribute to the ideal of self-realization: like self inquiry and introspection, contemplation, meditation, pranayama, asanas, mudras, bandhas, mouna, mantra. Practices that will actually produce REAL results. Climbing the stairs of a temple barefooted on broken glass while chanting “Hare Rama Hare krishna” probably wont do anything for you to bring you closer to self-realization, but a round of alternative nostril breathing will definitely calm down your nervous system and work towards purifying your body and reducing anxiety, depression and strengthening your senses.

High ideals, high mythology and high rituals lead to high people. Again, history will testify that if it were not for spiritual visionaries in their respective societies enlightened traditions like philosophy and science would not have been born. The Rishis of India laid the foundation for a glorious intellectual culture in India which lead to the birth of great minds like the holy sages of the Upanishads, Panini, Buddha, Mahavira, Patanjali, Kanada, Gautama, Bharathari, Vyassa etc
In Greece it lead the birth of Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato.

A point to be noted how Indians in the past were pioneers in science and philosophy. Since, the onset of the the Puranic and Bhakti age, Indians are not pioneers in science and philosophy. Most Indians consider the study of philosophy a waste of time today. That is why Indians themselves are a waste of time for the world :wink:

Set your ideal high.

There can not be much better misinformation about Hindu Rituals and Puranas than what Surya Deva wants others to believe in.

Also, most Indians, as of now, are not even keen to know what the Puranas are.I live in a middle-class locality in Bangalore and the school kids are not even able to quote a single story from Ramayana or Mahabharat. Most of them, receive highly westernized education. So only people who are much obsessed with puranas and rituals fall in the category of “sanyasis” who have no other work than believing in them blindly and may be propagating them on internet. Those are the types of people Surya Deva might have come in contact and developed negative tendencies…!!

Puranas never tell anyone that they are absolute truths or scientifically proven ones. The word “purana”, itself says that the things might have existed/happened before, and not that they will happen again.There is much science in ‘puranas’ then can be practically achievable today with current human technology.

Two examples:

  1. There are two terms in Puranas: “KamaDhenu” and “KalpaTaruvu”. ‘Kamadhenu’ means one which gives whatever is asked for. And yes, there are references to this concept in English Science Fiction novels, as some kind of machine which transforms matter from one form to another.
    ‘Kalpa Taruvu’ is a tree which answers any question posed to it. Some form of this is already achieved by Google. And, the algorithms for this question answering process are best implemented with analogy of a tree (Taruvu).

  2. In Mahabharata, there is reference to the episode where 100 Kauravas are born from a somewhat of a process of “cloning”. This type of technology is currently not available to humans. May be it is a future tech thing.

If one reads Puranas in proper light and context, one can see their importance . Same goes for rituals.

There is much science in ‘puranas’ then can be practically achievable today with current human technology.

two examples:

  1. there are two terms in puranas: “kamadhenu” and “kalpataruvu”. ‘kamadhenu’ means one which gives whatever is asked for. And yes, there are references to this concept in english science fiction novels, as some kind of machine which transforms matter from one form to another.

‘kalpa taruvu’ is a tree which answers any question posed to it. Some form of this is already achieved by google. And, the algorithms for this question answering process are best implemented with analogy of a tree (taruvu).

haha rofl

Further to Yaram post on the science of the Puranas talking trees(Google)! :lol:

I present this video: Don’t confuse Puranas (Mythology) and Shruti (Texts of Authority)

The speaker in the video is a prolific academic of Hinduism in the UK, and is a regular speaker at school, colleges and universities, including Oxford.

I visited this forum a couple of years ago and at that time Surya Deva was hell bent to prove that Yoga is Hinduism and that if you practice it you are becoming a Hindu. Today he sings a different tune.
But in-spite of his stand having changed what has not changed is his inner nature. He is still childish and pompous. He still is ego-oriented, argumentative and arrogant. He is just wasting his life arguing endlessly and writing loooong replies. To be sure he is not busy with either his yoga practice or some real job/business.
After his journey to India he is singing a different tune but the instrument is the same. There is a saying in Hindi, ‘Russi jal gayi, bal nahi gya’, meaning that rope is all burnt but its turns (of the threads) are still there!
Of course he is going to write a looooooong rebuttal to this post too! Cos he has the time and the inclination to go along with it.
I love you Surya! I found your posts entertaining today! I shall not be coming along this way sooner( I just stumbled on this thread from googling something) but next time I come by I hope to read some more posts from you which are good as the present ones!

I visited this forum a couple of years ago and at that time Surya Deva was hell bent to prove that Yoga is Hinduism and that if you practice it you are becoming a Hindu. Today he sings a different tune.

I never changed my view on Yoga being Hinduism. I just don’t consider Hinduism a religion, Hinduism is a science and philosophy.

But in-spite of his stand having changed what has not changed is his inner nature. He is still childish and pompous. He still is ego-oriented, argumentative and arrogant.

According to your opinion. I will reserve my opinion on you :wink:

He is just wasting his life arguing endlessly and writing loooong replies.

You are wasting your life replying to my long replies.

Of course he is going to write a looooooong rebuttal to this post too! Cos he has the time and the inclination to go along with it.

Bless you.

love you Surya! I found your posts entertaining today! I shall not be coming along this way sooner( I just stumbled on this thread from googling something) but next time I come by I hope to read some more posts from you which are good as the present ones!

Forever keeping you entertained :wink:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;72989]Further to Yaram post on the science of the Puranas talking trees(Google)! :lol:

I present this video: Don’t confuse Puranas (Mythology) and Shruti (Texts of Authority)

The speaker in the video is a prolific academic of Hinduism in the UK, and is a regular speaker at school, colleges and universities, including Oxford.[/QUOTE]

I watched a few of those vids and that professor is very interesting. My only problem with his approach (which, I’m not sure, but I think is a basic position Advaita Vedanta) is that he places a bit too much importance on rationality. He essentially says that logical argument is THE mode of religious discourse in this age.

Personally, I think it’s fools errand to try and make faith or a spiritual practice conform to intellectual games?which is basically what logic is.This is why I’m fond of the Japanese Zen tradition where the mind is considered about as trustworthy as a crack-addicted chimp.

And this is why I am also quite drawn to the Sivananda Yoga Vedanta practice since there seems to be a good balance of Hatha Yoga, Faith and Philosophy.

It is wise to be skeptical of the activities of the mind, and logic is indeed one of those activities. Logic is basically a set of arguments that logically follow from a basic premise: like 1+1 = 2; 2+4 = 4. This kind of logic is deductive and formal and thus always gives a certain conclusion. However, this logic is actually not a complete system because the 1+1=2 is an unproven assumption.

Formal and deductive logic cannot help us discover anything about reality. There is another type of logic known as scientific logic. Here the premise in the argument is derived from empirical observation itself. Such as the observation of the falling of an object leads to one to derive the law of gravitation. We can see that these these kind of logical derivations to have some grounding in reality.(Hence why we can apply them to the real world) However these are also not complete systems, because they rest on a host of assumptions:

  1. There is a reality
  2. That laws of nature are constant
  3. That our observation is reliable and valid

If you accept these assumptions than one must necessarily derive certain conclusions. If you do not accept the assumptions, then one is not bound to the conclusions. There is another highly logical system known as Samkhya(there are a host of threads in the spiritual forum) where many necessary conclusions are derived like liberation, karma and reincarnation, pure consciousness , primeval matter and cycles of creation and destruction. This is all derived from only one assumption: that there is an observer. If one accepts that there is an observer, one is bound by its conclusions. However, if one rejects the assumption of an observer, then one is not bound by its conclusions.

Now Advaita. The premise of Advaita is not an assumption but an undeniable premise. The reality of awareness, existence and sentience. It cannot be denied, because to deny it we would have to posit a denier. If we posit yet another denier for the denier we have an infinite regression absurdity. Thus we must conclude the denier exists. In Advaita this is called the “self” The knower itself cannot be known through means of knowledge(perception, intellect etc), because the knower precedes all means of knowledge. Yet it’s reality is certain because one cannot deny the fact of ones self. That fact of “I-am-ness” is incontrovertible.

Now, if we derive our logical system from an incontrovertible premise then all conclusions that are derived from it are absolute. Hence why Advaita is presented rationally. None of its truths can actually be refuted because they all logically follow from an absolute truth.

SURYA. sorry. do not have enough time to read all the posts at this moment.
But your first post. the first man you talked to, and asked about controlling the mind and body completly. He was right you know?
Just because he does not know how to stop eating. stop sleeping. and stop the sexual urge. dosnt mean he was wrong. He know what needed to be done, just not how to do it. Complete mastery of body and mind. brings immortality. among other things.
you should have talked to the first man more. :stuck_out_tongue: :slight_smile:

Thanks Avatar, I actually quite liked that man, but I needed to ask myself a serious question: Why do I want to associate with somebody who makes his living through begging and does nothing more with his life than move from place to place and beg? He wanted me to do exactly the same. This is not wisdom in my opinion.

Maybe not wisdom, but he is in fact following the Vedic scriptures. It shows a very high level of commitment.

If he was truly that committed. Chose that life style willingly. " not by circumstance"
Then the question is. What does he do when he is not begging or moving around.
If i knew what i am trying to figure out. And did not have people who relied on me. Had no one that needed me to take care of them. I would willingly choose that life style as well. I have almost moved to india twice in order to choose that life style, so i could commit my time fully to trying to figure out a certain discipline/sadhana.
But! of course going to india will not determine my success. so i did not move.

wisdom is the use of knowledge. 2 men know exactly the same things. one man uses what he knows. the other man ignores what he knows. the wise man is the one who uses what he knows.

The Guru is God. His “son” who is chief, lord, and soverign of this universe - who is known as Christ - is the salvation. Take your refuge in them. If your heart doesn’t see the son then it must be the father.

They, unlike man, are without fault - without deciet, and will, with your devotion (compliance), show you the true way.

Scripture which with your devotion, becomes wisdom and thus your sword.

The Armor is virtue.

The Shield is God.

It is exceedingly difficult to find a saint, a true man of God in this age.

Read the Books. Abrahamic as well as oriental. Find the good teachings.

Take refuge in God. Take refuge in heaven. Forsake the guru as man for the majority (not all) of them are of little value.

Heaven will show you - if you are worthy.

1+1 is not an unproven assumption. you know what 2 means. you know what 1 means. if you have 1, and you have another 1, now you have 2. 2 being another representation for 1 and another 1.

now get this!
1=2
2=1
that is the magic of 3
2=4
4=2
that is the magic of 5.
that is the complete balance.
the balance, and the counter balance.
I have been shown the way.
the walking will not be done for me.
when the way ends, as i stand upon the edge of a cliff. the hard part is over. now i no longer walk. but i fly. but it is not me who flies, but i who is carried. I simply found the holy spirit. thats the hardest part.

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;70579]It’s not just that he has only met bad apples, we’ve all met bad apples, but that didn’t make us leave our religion. The problem is that SD has not met anyone who could stroke his ego and give him some validation.

Can you imagine, Surya Deva walking up to a Sadhu.

SD: Yo dude, I want to be just like you.
Sadhu: Okay man, do what I have done and renounce the world…
SD: No way man, I am out of here…

Surya Deva goes up to a Hindu priest

SD: Hey priest, can you teach me how to be a Hindu
Priest: Well, since you left the Sadhu and didn’t want to become a renunciate and you are well educated and already over 30 years of age, why don’t you get married?
SD: No way man, I don’t have time for a woman. I need at least seven hours a day to post on yogaforums.

Surya Deva goes to a Vedanta Ashrama

SD: Yo, I want to learn philosophy and shit…
Teachers: Sure, let us begin our studies with Sanskrit
SD: No, no. You didn’t understand, I said I already know everything.

Surya Deva goes to a temple.

SD: Hhm, maybe god can give me some answers…
Devotees: showing signs of devotional ectasy.
SD: Oh noes, I have landed right in a scene from Indiana Jones.[/QUOTE]
*laughing my ass hard off right now (I wish I could sig this).

I have been reading up on a lot of past threads and stopped at this one.

All I know here, is that I am [I]really[/I] gonna like this guy. I have totally agreed with everything he’s said on every issue up until now.

…but then again, I would. lulz

Aum Namah Shivaya.