I am no longer Hindu


#181

It is wise to be skeptical of the activities of the mind, and logic is indeed one of those activities. Logic is basically a set of arguments that logically follow from a basic premise: like 1+1 = 2; 2+4 = 4. This kind of logic is deductive and formal and thus always gives a certain conclusion. However, this logic is actually not a complete system because the 1+1=2 is an unproven assumption.

Formal and deductive logic cannot help us discover anything about reality. There is another type of logic known as scientific logic. Here the premise in the argument is derived from empirical observation itself. Such as the observation of the falling of an object leads to one to derive the law of gravitation. We can see that these these kind of logical derivations to have some grounding in reality.(Hence why we can apply them to the real world) However these are also not complete systems, because they rest on a host of assumptions:

  1. There is a reality
  2. That laws of nature are constant
  3. That our observation is reliable and valid

If you accept these assumptions than one must necessarily derive certain conclusions. If you do not accept the assumptions, then one is not bound to the conclusions. There is another highly logical system known as Samkhya(there are a host of threads in the spiritual forum) where many necessary conclusions are derived like liberation, karma and reincarnation, pure consciousness , primeval matter and cycles of creation and destruction. This is all derived from only one assumption: that there is an observer. If one accepts that there is an observer, one is bound by its conclusions. However, if one rejects the assumption of an observer, then one is not bound by its conclusions.

Now Advaita. The premise of Advaita is not an assumption but an undeniable premise. The reality of awareness, existence and sentience. It cannot be denied, because to deny it we would have to posit a denier. If we posit yet another denier for the denier we have an infinite regression absurdity. Thus we must conclude the denier exists. In Advaita this is called the “self” The knower itself cannot be known through means of knowledge(perception, intellect etc), because the knower precedes all means of knowledge. Yet it’s reality is certain because one cannot deny the fact of ones self. That fact of “I-am-ness” is incontrovertible.

Now, if we derive our logical system from an incontrovertible premise then all conclusions that are derived from it are absolute. Hence why Advaita is presented rationally. None of its truths can actually be refuted because they all logically follow from an absolute truth.


#182

SURYA. sorry. do not have enough time to read all the posts at this moment.
But your first post. the first man you talked to, and asked about controlling the mind and body completly. He was right you know?
Just because he does not know how to stop eating. stop sleeping. and stop the sexual urge. dosnt mean he was wrong. He know what needed to be done, just not how to do it. Complete mastery of body and mind. brings immortality. among other things.
you should have talked to the first man more. :stuck_out_tongue: :slight_smile:


#183

Thanks Avatar, I actually quite liked that man, but I needed to ask myself a serious question: Why do I want to associate with somebody who makes his living through begging and does nothing more with his life than move from place to place and beg? He wanted me to do exactly the same. This is not wisdom in my opinion.


#184

Maybe not wisdom, but he is in fact following the Vedic scriptures. It shows a very high level of commitment.


#185

If he was truly that committed. Chose that life style willingly. " not by circumstance"
Then the question is. What does he do when he is not begging or moving around.
If i knew what i am trying to figure out. And did not have people who relied on me. Had no one that needed me to take care of them. I would willingly choose that life style as well. I have almost moved to india twice in order to choose that life style, so i could commit my time fully to trying to figure out a certain discipline/sadhana.
But! of course going to india will not determine my success. so i did not move.

wisdom is the use of knowledge. 2 men know exactly the same things. one man uses what he knows. the other man ignores what he knows. the wise man is the one who uses what he knows.


#186

The Guru is God. His “son” who is chief, lord, and soverign of this universe - who is known as Christ - is the salvation. Take your refuge in them. If your heart doesn’t see the son then it must be the father.

They, unlike man, are without fault - without deciet, and will, with your devotion (compliance), show you the true way.

Scripture which with your devotion, becomes wisdom and thus your sword.

The Armor is virtue.

The Shield is God.

It is exceedingly difficult to find a saint, a true man of God in this age.

Read the Books. Abrahamic as well as oriental. Find the good teachings.

Take refuge in God. Take refuge in heaven. Forsake the guru as man for the majority (not all) of them are of little value.

Heaven will show you - if you are worthy.


#187

1+1 is not an unproven assumption. you know what 2 means. you know what 1 means. if you have 1, and you have another 1, now you have 2. 2 being another representation for 1 and another 1.

now get this!
1=2
2=1
that is the magic of 3
2=4
4=2
that is the magic of 5.
that is the complete balance.
the balance, and the counter balance.
I have been shown the way.
the walking will not be done for me.
when the way ends, as i stand upon the edge of a cliff. the hard part is over. now i no longer walk. but i fly. but it is not me who flies, but i who is carried. I simply found the holy spirit. thats the hardest part.


#188

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;70579]It’s not just that he has only met bad apples, we’ve all met bad apples, but that didn’t make us leave our religion. The problem is that SD has not met anyone who could stroke his ego and give him some validation.

Can you imagine, Surya Deva walking up to a Sadhu.

SD: Yo dude, I want to be just like you.
Sadhu: Okay man, do what I have done and renounce the world…
SD: No way man, I am out of here…

Surya Deva goes up to a Hindu priest

SD: Hey priest, can you teach me how to be a Hindu
Priest: Well, since you left the Sadhu and didn’t want to become a renunciate and you are well educated and already over 30 years of age, why don’t you get married?
SD: No way man, I don’t have time for a woman. I need at least seven hours a day to post on yogaforums.

Surya Deva goes to a Vedanta Ashrama

SD: Yo, I want to learn philosophy and shit…
Teachers: Sure, let us begin our studies with Sanskrit
SD: No, no. You didn’t understand, I said I already know everything.

Surya Deva goes to a temple.

SD: Hhm, maybe god can give me some answers…
Devotees: showing signs of devotional ectasy.
SD: Oh noes, I have landed right in a scene from Indiana Jones.[/QUOTE]
*laughing my ass hard off right now (I wish I could sig this).

I have been reading up on a lot of past threads and stopped at this one.

All I know here, is that I am [I]really[/I] gonna like this guy. I have totally agreed with everything he’s said on every issue up until now.

…but then again, I would. lulz

Aum Namah Shivaya.


#189

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;70592]In his passion for truth, SD seems to be running everywhere but inside. [/QUOTE]
…and that…SO MUCH of that. I tried here, I really did. :frowning:


#190

Finally:

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;72913]You are making up a story about me and telling what you think Hinduism means for me, but you actually have no idea how in my heart I experience my religion.[/QUOTE]
I also experienced that with SD. If I wasn’t so strong within my own faith, I would have chewed him out for that.

I am not trying to stir up shit or anything here. It’s interesting to read Surya’s background and why he feels this way about Hinduism…about me…

All I can see is just a lot of disappointment, wherever I look. If he could only just ‘lighten up’ for even one minute…bingo.

Sure, I have had bad experiences with Hinduism too, many of them. I left the religion for 10 years until Lord Shiva reminded me recently that he had nothing whatsoever to do with that.

I just didn’t become a Hindu for what I eventually saw Hinduism as…people ‘going through the motions’ without having a clue…where poojas were nothing more than parties and excuses to socialise in finery. I really missed the raw, spiritual power behind it all. It was stupid of me to leave. I know that now…but I have returned now with more than what I left with.


#191

As nobody has brought up this old thread because of my recent criticisms of her, I thought I would requote my refutation of Sarva’s parody of my experiences in India (Sarva by the way was a dishonest Hindu, who actually ganged up against me with Asuri, a member who was banned for his racist remarks against Hindu. At that time time Sarva was against Asuri, but later when he became enemies with me, he and Asuri became best friends and would regularly gang up on me - Sarva only knew how to insult and nothing else, when David enforced the no personal attacks rule and deleted Sarva’s posts - Sarva stopped posting altogether on the forum)

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;70597]Nope, it’s got nothing to do with my ego. Your adhominem is not going to change the fact that millions of Hindu youth today are turned off from Hinduism because of the kind of experiences I recount. Notice how in your parody of my experiences you omit the most negative ones:

The woman acting like Durga herself had entered her at the Devi pooja festival with her baby. A very common sight to be seen at any Hindu religious festival. Stampedes are also very common because of such neurotic behaviour.

The Yoga guru who molested his students in the ashram.

The Krishna monk who tried to steal my music player from the back of my player while I was prostating.

The Sadhus at the Krishna Bhakti ashram that were exploiting the naive Australian seeker and were always high on drugs.

The American Yogi who was persecuted by the Vedanta monks in Utterkashi. Including the nasty gossiping they did about other monks.

The sinister Sadhu that was trying to get me to a remote place with him.

The Vedic scholar who was trying to justify everything within Hinduism, including unscientific statements to be scientific facts: Like the Moon being further away from the Earth than the sun or how we must offer water to the sun, otherwise it will stop burning! This kind of bad science is peddled by many Puranic Hindus, and is just as embarrassing as Christian flat earthers.

The very fact that you would choose to simply brush this under the carpet reveals you are insecure about these facts of Hinduism today. You are thus not somebody who is capable of self-criticism of his religion. You have said a lot of negative stuff about Abrahamic religions both on Yoga forums and HDF, but you cannot take it when the critical eye falls on your religion. Clown.

Now let us look at your trivialization of the real issues at hand in the experiences you did decide to cover:

No, the Sadhu told me not to renounce the world. Reunication is a mental act(Krishna says this in the Gita too) He told me to stop eating, to go on the street and beg and to serve him like a slave just that I could learn some Yoga from him. It is obvious that to learn Yoga one does not have to do any of this, this is why it is a dead tradition. I could learn exactly what he was going to teach me, anywhere else, without going through all this pointless garbage. He is effectively encouraging me to become poor, beg on the street and endanger my well being. Only an idiot thinks this is healthy.

No, he told me that I could not be a proper Hindu unless I spoke Hindi, wore Indian clothes and practiced Indian forms and enter the caste system and practice all ordained duties and rituals for my caste and got married as per the Hindu rules that somebody at the age of 31 has to get married. This immediately excludes anybody who is non Indian, who does not speak Hindu, who wears jeans, shirts and trousers. We know that following these endless set of rules is definitely not a prerequisite to be a Hindu, thus this person definition of being hinges on nothing more blind adherence to an outdated set of rules.
In modern society nobody is obliged to get married, let alone married by a certain age.

Nope, I was told my knowledge of Vedanta was not valid simply because I had learned it by myself(not through an authorized Guru) and through English translations. They were not even prepared to listen to what I already knew about Vedanta. This excludes even Vedanta scholars around the world who have not learned it in from Gurus or in Sanskrit, and yet their knowledge is probably more than a match for these traditionalists. Again the main concern here is blind adherence to tradition, rather than being open to allowing Vedanta to be taught through non traditional means.
A Hindu Vedanta swami that I actually respected, told me how he tried to introduce new things to the tradition by introducing readings of the Yoga Vasistha, but faced a lot of intolerance. He was also open to accommodating the American yogi, but the Vedanta monks were intolerant to him. The monks at his place actively persecuted him, gosspied nastily about him, tried to get him kicked out of India, even sent him hate messages and threats.

Sarva you are a clown. You can’t actually deal with the fact that Hinduism is rife with garbage like I just pointed out and even try to rationalize it by appealing to fallacious arguments of tradition. I am actually in good company, my criticisms of Hindu pointless ritualism and blind adherence to tradition has been voiced by all major Hindu reformers from the great Buddha to Guru Nanak to Swami Dayananda Saraswati. I am not at all afraid of speaking my mind. You can try and belittle me all you want, the truth is you are belittling only yourself by clearly betraying your insecurities.[/QUOTE]


#192

If there’s anything I must do here, it’s to actually thank you for the lesson.

Without your criticisms, I wouldn’t have learned how not to give a shit about them anymore.

Peace.


#193

Yes of course, you cant give a “shit” about criticisms because you want the luxury of claiming whatever you like without any challenges or tests. You’re like a doctor who declares they are doctor without going to medical school and passing the exams :wink:

I am pretty convinced you are fake. For somebody who claims to have “transcended the human condition, living in the divine condition, always in communion with god, constantly feeling love” You are far too bitter, vengeful, potty-mouthed, insecure and air-headed.


#194

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;81330]Yes of course, you cant give a “shit” about criticisms because you want the luxury of claiming whatever you like without any challenges or tests. You’re like a doctor who declares they are doctor without going to medical school and passing the exams :wink:

I am pretty convinced you are fake. For somebody who claims to have “transcended the human condition, living in the divine condition, always in communion with god, constantly feeling love” You are far too bitter, vengeful, potty-mouthed, insecure and air-headed .[/QUOTE]
Always remember this, Surya Deva. It was you who started with the ad-hominem and personal attacks, not I.

That last sentence alone can be seen as a flame, if not your whole argument there.

Do you know why I don’t care about your criticisms? Because I have the conviction not to and for no other reason than that.

At first, I felt compassion. Now all I can feel is pity. I am sorry.


#195

:wink: Enjoy the forums, don’t mind me


#196

Thank you.

To be totally honest with you though, I doubt I can even do that.

This forum seems to be all but deceased anyway. I was also hoping to build/foster some online Yoga/Spiritual community here, with the aims of ‘reviving’ this tired, old horse again.

All I see, is maybe 5 or 6 regular posters who post every few days and just plenty of bots and spiders.

I also think this forum is not really suited for me either.

I have done Hatha and Kriya Yoga for many years (20 of them). I have read the Yoga Sutras and Pradipika (in Sanskrit) too.

…but the cold, hard, clinical ‘scientific approach’ offered by these 5-6 members on this forum clearly discludes anything other than Hatha Yoga from being discussed here.

I have learned a bit in the few days I have been posting here though. Mainly to try and overcome my ‘ironic detachment’ because it’s not ‘cool’ to do that, no matter how close to the divine one is.

I am not an enlightened being. I would [I]never[/I] want to become ‘one with Shiva’. I just enjoy worshipping Him too much for that.

Aum Namah Shivaya
Aum Tat Sat


#197

Forums thrive on controversy. This forum was highly active about 2 years ago when the India-West, Hindu-Christian wars were going on in this forum. Since those wars died out, the activity has died out as well. We get occasional bursts of activity, but it is not as active as it was back then. However, it is far from dead, it’s just as not active as before, does not mean in the future it will not pick up again.

I disagree with your assessment that we only talk about Hatha Yoga here or everybody has a “hard, cold, clinical” scientific approach. In fact the Yoga forum is one of the few Yoga forums where discussions take place on Samkhya and Vedanta philosophy, and many of the members here are aware of some of the concepts, theories and history behind these philosophies here. There are many very well-read and intelligent members that post here - don’t miss them :wink:


#198

[QUOTE=reaswaran;70639][QUOTE
Can you imagine, Surya Deva walking up to a Sadhu.

SD: Yo dude, I want to be just like you.
Sadhu: Okay man, do what I have done and renounce the world…
SD: No way man, I am out of here…

[/QUOTE]

When the Guru was dying, one of his deciples asked him "Guruji, who was your master?"
He said, "I had thousands of masters. If I just relate their names it will take months, years and it is too late. But three masters I will certainly tell you about. "

"One was a thief. Once I got lost in the desert, and when I reached a village it was very late, everything was closed. But at last I found one man who was trying to make a hole in the wall of a house. I asked him where I could stay and he said ‘At this time of night it will be difficult, but you can stay with me - if you can stay with a thief’.

And the man was so beautiful. I stayed for one month! And each night he would say to me, 'Now I am going to my work. You rest, you pray.'
When he came back I would ask 'Could you get anything?'
He would say, ‘Not tonight. But tomorrow I will try again, God willing.’ He was never in a state of hopelessness, he was always happy. When I was meditating and meditating for years on end and nothing was happening, many times the moment came when I was so desperate, so hopeless,that I thought to stop all this nonsense. And suddenly I would remember the thief who would say every night, 'God willing, tomorrow it is going to happen."

“And my second master was a dog. I was going to the river, thirsty and a dog came. He was also thirsty. He looked into the river, he saw another dog there – his own image – and became afraid. He would bark and run away, but his thirst was so much that he would come back. Finally, despite his fear, he just jumped into the water, and the image disappeared. And I knew that a message had come to me from God: one has to jump in spite of all fears.”

“And the third master was a small child. I entered a town and a child was carrying a lit candle. He was going to the temple to put the candle there.'
I asked the boy in jest , 'Have you lit the candle yourself?'
He said, 'Yes sir.'
And I asked, 'There was a moment when the candle was unlit, then there was a moment when the candle was lit. Can you show me the source from which the light came?'
And the boy laughed, blew out the candle, and said, 'Now you have seen the light going. Where has it gone? You tell me!'
My ego was shattered, my whole knowledge was shattered. And that moment I felt my own stupidity. Since then I dropped all my knowledgeability.”
“It is true that I had no master. That does not mean that I was not a disciple – I accepted the whole existence as my master. My Disciplehood was a greater involvement than yours is. I trusted the clouds, the trees. I trusted existence as such. I had no master because I had millions of masters I learned from every possible source. To be a disciple is a must on the path. What does it mean to be a disciple? It means to be able to learn. to be available to learn to be vulnerable to existence. With a master you start learning to learn.”

The master is a swimming pool where you can learn how to swim. Once you have learned, all the oceans are yours.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=“6”]Deserves repeating and reading.[/SIZE]


#199

Very true, Sikhs believe that everything has a primal energy in them. The soul 'Atma' and that anyone can connect to it. Some cultures because that if your born in a low caste then you have to wait until you are born again in a higher cast to achieve mukti. Guru Nanak opposed this and said no one is beyond redeeming themselves. We all have that ability to achieve mukti. Few examples are Bhagat Nam Dev and Bhagat Ravi Daas who were all from a low caste but achieved mukti (spiritual enlightenment)