I have said nothing about it being offensive to Hindus. If you want to follow transpersonal psychology and neo-vedanta while being promiscuous and making insults towards the gods while cursing India, that will be your responsibility.
Surya Deva, sounds like you’d be better off aligning yourself with the western adherents of yoga and vedanta. There are so many yoga centers and other dharmic groups that are sprouting up throughout the western world and we would love to see more people of Indian origin join us.
We don’t carry the Indian cultural baggage that you speak of. However we do have our own cultural baggage, but it sounds to me, since you are a Britisher yourself, that you are more comfortable with that type of baggage anyway. At least its something you are familiar with and can navigate.
At the very least you won’t be hearing any of us tell you its your “duty” to get married and that you won’t achieve moksha until and unless you do.
One point I will agree with Sarva on is that sampradaya lineage has its purpose and value. It may not be your cup of tea, but the system of sampradaya was and still is the very mechaninism which preserved and propagated Vedantic texts and their commentaries.
However it may be near impossible for you to relate culturally and socially to an authentic sampradayik Vedantin if she or he is not global in their scope and outlook.
Don’t worry about that. Keep doing you and in due course of time if such a Vedantin crosses your path, you’ll know it.
PS: I just read that you wrote, “I am a born Sikh”. Now I REALLY want to invite you to join the global yoga community. Punjabi men are generally quite hot and we masala deprived goris could use some eye candy
Bhalle! Bhalle!
[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;72946]but you are not an actual vedantin if you are not part of a lineage (sampradaya).[/QUOTE]
No worries, I have no plans on misidentifying myself as anything other than true inner nature.
You know I can easily argue with Sarva that how he defines Hinduism is only specific to him(His Hinduism is basically nationalist Hinduism) and not every Hindu samapradaya has the same rituals and customs. As I argued earlier, Hinduism has no fixed rituals, customs and traditions and historically they have been dynamic and changing. Surely enough Sarva is not following any of the old traditions either: One old tradition that you must not eat food cooked and prepared by an outcaste. Sarva lives in the West, and I am pretty sure he eats out and eats food prepared by non-hindus He pulls me up on drinking alcohol, I wonder if he eats onions and garlic
What a joke this boy is turning out to be. Anyway I am going to let him have his “Hinduism” and his own rigid definition of it. The term ‘Hindu’ no longer serves me because of jokers like Sarva. I am a member of the original Santana dharma discovered by the Vedic sages of India, which is global spirituality, pioneered by Vivekananda et al, and which today has reached its acme in the form of transpersonal psychology. The Vedic sages would have been very proud of the research the West is doing in spirituality. Tomorrow we will be living in a global spiritual world, and Indians if they still are around, will have no choice but to be a part of it, as all they do today is ape the West anyway
Anyone who reads your posts carefully can see that your definition of Hindu is much more rigid than mine. You constantly project your personal fantasies as “the one and only true Hinduism of the vedic rishis,” I don’t do that. I acknowlegde a wide variety of approaches to Hinduism, but sorry if I don’t consider Christianity influenced neo-vendanta and voodoo psychology to be representative of Hinduism. You on the other hand call every Hindu who doesn’t follow your model of it an idiot.
I’ll let you have Hinduism Sarva. You can keep it all for yourself. Enjoy reading stories of gods and demons battling out in heaven and hell, the fun and frolics of baby Krishna and his 18,000 wives/girlfriends in adulthood, ringing bells at temples, and feeding milk to elephant and monkey gods
This thread has degenerated into a 6 page pissing match! … Not saying it hasn’t been a good read, but I would like to get back to the original subject of SD losing his religion.
So as you said, you were fortunate enough to have been raised a Sikh and in your opinion Sikhism has since gone downhill. (Personally, I still find it to be a potentially very satisfying, enlightened tradition. But I have no experience to back that up.)
In addition, you said that you had some bad experiences in Vedanta centers in India. So this begs the question: If there is no tradition or group out there which resonates with you, what will you do?
There is a saying in India, “He who has nobody, has god”
There are no traditions and viewpoints that satisfy me. I have tried various: Sikh, Atheism and Nihilism, Brahma Kumaris, Ananda Marga Yoga(Tantra Yoga), New Age, Sahaja Yoga, Theosophy, Vipassana, Vedanta, Ananda Kriya Yoga.
I thus have decided to go it alone and design my own path. Ultimately this is what the Vedic sages advise, “Find your own path, don’t walk another’s” so now I am in the process of discovering exactly what my path is. I know I have strong affinities with Vedanta and Samkhya-Yoga and modern science, so I think my path will ultimately be a synthesis of them all. I have learned something from every tradition and viewpoint I have been a part of in the past.
[QUOTE=ejlorge;72969]This thread has degenerated into a 6 page pissing match! … Not saying it hasn’t been a good read, but I would like to get back to the original subject of SD losing his religion.[/QUOTE]
It?s wonderful to witness and refreshing to hear people speak openly from the depths of their passionate desires.
[QUOTE=ejlorge;72969]
So as you said, you were fortunate enough to have been raised a Sikh and in your opinion Sikhism has since gone downhill. (Personally, I still find it to be a potentially very satisfying, enlightened tradition. But I have no experience to back that up.)[/QUOTE]
Is there a religion or philosophy not steeped in dogma?
[QUOTE=ejlorge;72969]In addition, you said that you had some bad experiences in Vedanta centers in India. So this begs the question: If there is no tradition or group out there which resonates with you, what will you do?[/QUOTE]
?How can anybody tell you what you shall become when there is no becoming? You merely discover what you are. All molding oneself to a pattern is a grievous waste of time. Think neither of the past nor of the future; just be.? ~ Maharaj
[QUOTE=ray_killeen;72971]
Is there a religion or philosophy not steeped in dogma?
[/QUOTE]
No, I would say not. But dogma (i.e. Form) isn’t the problem so much as mistaking the dogma for the ultimate truth (i.e. Essence).
I myself am not religious, not because religions entail dogma or ritual, but because I have not found a religion (e.g. cult) which recognizes the peripheral nature of dogma and ritual (if that makes any sense).
Ritual can be a very potent practice, if done responsibly. Mythology is a very potent form of metaphor, if understood correctly.
But they are not the MOST important: Direct Experience for me, is the most important element in gaining spiritual “knowledge”.
[QUOTE=ejlorge;72976]No, I would say not. But dogma (i.e. Form) isn’t the problem so much as mistaking the dogma for the ultimate truth (i.e. Essence).
I myself am not religious, not because religions entail dogma or ritual, but because I have not found a religion (e.g. cult) which recognizes the peripheral nature of dogma and ritual (if that makes any sense).
Ritual can be a very potent practice, if done responsibly. Mythology is a very potent form of metaphor, if understood correctly.
But they are not the MOST important: Direct Experience for me, is the most important element in gaining spiritual “knowledge”.[/QUOTE]
Bhakti is the least of my dispositions however there seems to have been enough successful trial and error that I myself study and practice.
[QUOTE=ejlorge;72976]
Ritual can be a very potent practice, if done responsibly. Mythology is a very potent form of metaphor, if understood correctly.
[/QUOTE]
for me a ritual,
sort of a warmup
before The game.
Namaste.
Ritual and mythology have their place as long as they support an ideal worth having and aspiring for.
We all have our daily rituals. Like getting up from bed, going to the toilet, brushing our teeth, having a shower, getting breakfast. Rituals are needed in daily life, but we need those rituals that will actually bring us great benefit.
We also have our mythology, common stories we tell, like fables like the hare and the tortoise. The stories from Greek mythology are used commonly in philosophical literature to bear our certain points. To this end, the Puranas in Indian literature are useful, so as long as they bear a philosophical truth or a moral worth teaching.
The problem is that in Puranic Hinduis, the ideal is set very low. For many Hindus they are worshiping an actual god. Vaishnaivists worship Vishnu(Lord Krishna according to them) who lives in heaven(Vaikunta) and who rewards and punished, and incarnates on Earth from time to time. Many are awaiting his latest avatar Kalki to come and solve the worlds problems.
Thus they live in a fantasy world and have the childish temperament to back it up. They are simple people of faith and make images of god in their own image, attributing their own qualities onto him. They like fun and frolics, and so does their god; they get angry and sad, and so does their god. They are people of the book, literally reading their scriptures and believing everything within it and reading metaphorically anything within scripture that modern science has disproven e.g., the Puranas mention that the moon is further away from the Earth than the sun. So is Sarva going to accept this fact? Nope, he will reinterpret it.
Sound familiar? Every religionist does that. These people are not morally, intellectually and spiritually any better than an ordinary person, because religion for them is nothing more than a belief system.
Their low ideal is backed up with low mythology and low ritual. Bizarre stories like flying monkeys from millions of years ago, talking fish, immaculate conception. Bizarre rituals like crawling up the stairs of the temple of their god up and down, fasting a number of days to appease their god, ringing temple bells, bashing in temple baths, subjecting themselves to pain or mortification to win the grace of god.
Low ideals, low mythology and low rituals leads to low people. History will testify that religious people have not proved to be any better than non religious people, in fact in most cases religious people have been the most murderous, deceitful, immoral lot. It was a religious people that burned hundreds of thousands of ‘witches’ It was religious people that in modern day India slaughtered each other during the partition. It is these religious people that cause stampedes in India and trample over one another.
Hindus are mostly made up of these low, simple and common folk today.
Then there are high ideals like self-realization. High ideals are backed with high mythology and ritual. High mythology are like the stories told in the Upanishads or the Yoga Vasistha or the Mahabharata(including the Gita) and Ramayana which explain complex philosophical concepts of Vedanta in story form and make them more enjoyable, palpable and understandable. The device of using stories is a common practice known as “Katha” It matters little, whether the story is fictional or non-fictional, but the message behind the story matters. This is why “Purana” is named as the 5th Veda. But that has nothing to do with the sectarian Puranas that we have in our hands today.
High rituals are rituals that will contribute to the ideal of self-realization: like self inquiry and introspection, contemplation, meditation, pranayama, asanas, mudras, bandhas, mouna, mantra. Practices that will actually produce REAL results. Climbing the stairs of a temple barefooted on broken glass while chanting “Hare Rama Hare krishna” probably wont do anything for you to bring you closer to self-realization, but a round of alternative nostril breathing will definitely calm down your nervous system and work towards purifying your body and reducing anxiety, depression and strengthening your senses.
High ideals, high mythology and high rituals lead to high people. Again, history will testify that if it were not for spiritual visionaries in their respective societies enlightened traditions like philosophy and science would not have been born. The Rishis of India laid the foundation for a glorious intellectual culture in India which lead to the birth of great minds like the holy sages of the Upanishads, Panini, Buddha, Mahavira, Patanjali, Kanada, Gautama, Bharathari, Vyassa etc
In Greece it lead the birth of Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato.
A point to be noted how Indians in the past were pioneers in science and philosophy. Since, the onset of the the Puranic and Bhakti age, Indians are not pioneers in science and philosophy. Most Indians consider the study of philosophy a waste of time today. That is why Indians themselves are a waste of time for the world
Set your ideal high.
There can not be much better misinformation about Hindu Rituals and Puranas than what Surya Deva wants others to believe in.
Also, most Indians, as of now, are not even keen to know what the Puranas are.I live in a middle-class locality in Bangalore and the school kids are not even able to quote a single story from Ramayana or Mahabharat. Most of them, receive highly westernized education. So only people who are much obsessed with puranas and rituals fall in the category of “sanyasis” who have no other work than believing in them blindly and may be propagating them on internet. Those are the types of people Surya Deva might have come in contact and developed negative tendencies…!!
Puranas never tell anyone that they are absolute truths or scientifically proven ones. The word “purana”, itself says that the things might have existed/happened before, and not that they will happen again.There is much science in ‘puranas’ then can be practically achievable today with current human technology.
Two examples:
-
There are two terms in Puranas: “KamaDhenu” and “KalpaTaruvu”. ‘Kamadhenu’ means one which gives whatever is asked for. And yes, there are references to this concept in English Science Fiction novels, as some kind of machine which transforms matter from one form to another.
‘Kalpa Taruvu’ is a tree which answers any question posed to it. Some form of this is already achieved by Google. And, the algorithms for this question answering process are best implemented with analogy of a tree (Taruvu). -
In Mahabharata, there is reference to the episode where 100 Kauravas are born from a somewhat of a process of “cloning”. This type of technology is currently not available to humans. May be it is a future tech thing.
If one reads Puranas in proper light and context, one can see their importance . Same goes for rituals.
There is much science in ‘puranas’ then can be practically achievable today with current human technology.
two examples:
- there are two terms in puranas: “kamadhenu” and “kalpataruvu”. ‘kamadhenu’ means one which gives whatever is asked for. And yes, there are references to this concept in english science fiction novels, as some kind of machine which transforms matter from one form to another.
‘kalpa taruvu’ is a tree which answers any question posed to it. Some form of this is already achieved by google. And, the algorithms for this question answering process are best implemented with analogy of a tree (taruvu).
haha rofl
Further to Yaram post on the science of the Puranas talking trees(Google)! :lol:
I present this video: Don’t confuse Puranas (Mythology) and Shruti (Texts of Authority)
The speaker in the video is a prolific academic of Hinduism in the UK, and is a regular speaker at school, colleges and universities, including Oxford.
I visited this forum a couple of years ago and at that time Surya Deva was hell bent to prove that Yoga is Hinduism and that if you practice it you are becoming a Hindu. Today he sings a different tune.
But in-spite of his stand having changed what has not changed is his inner nature. He is still childish and pompous. He still is ego-oriented, argumentative and arrogant. He is just wasting his life arguing endlessly and writing loooong replies. To be sure he is not busy with either his yoga practice or some real job/business.
After his journey to India he is singing a different tune but the instrument is the same. There is a saying in Hindi, ‘Russi jal gayi, bal nahi gya’, meaning that rope is all burnt but its turns (of the threads) are still there!
Of course he is going to write a looooooong rebuttal to this post too! Cos he has the time and the inclination to go along with it.
I love you Surya! I found your posts entertaining today! I shall not be coming along this way sooner( I just stumbled on this thread from googling something) but next time I come by I hope to read some more posts from you which are good as the present ones!
I visited this forum a couple of years ago and at that time Surya Deva was hell bent to prove that Yoga is Hinduism and that if you practice it you are becoming a Hindu. Today he sings a different tune.
I never changed my view on Yoga being Hinduism. I just don’t consider Hinduism a religion, Hinduism is a science and philosophy.
But in-spite of his stand having changed what has not changed is his inner nature. He is still childish and pompous. He still is ego-oriented, argumentative and arrogant.
According to your opinion. I will reserve my opinion on you
He is just wasting his life arguing endlessly and writing loooong replies.
You are wasting your life replying to my long replies.
Of course he is going to write a looooooong rebuttal to this post too! Cos he has the time and the inclination to go along with it.
Bless you.
love you Surya! I found your posts entertaining today! I shall not be coming along this way sooner( I just stumbled on this thread from googling something) but next time I come by I hope to read some more posts from you which are good as the present ones!
Forever keeping you entertained
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;72989]Further to Yaram post on the science of the Puranas talking trees(Google)! :lol:
I present this video: Don’t confuse Puranas (Mythology) and Shruti (Texts of Authority)
The speaker in the video is a prolific academic of Hinduism in the UK, and is a regular speaker at school, colleges and universities, including Oxford.[/QUOTE]
I watched a few of those vids and that professor is very interesting. My only problem with his approach (which, I’m not sure, but I think is a basic position Advaita Vedanta) is that he places a bit too much importance on rationality. He essentially says that logical argument is THE mode of religious discourse in this age.
Personally, I think it’s fools errand to try and make faith or a spiritual practice conform to intellectual games?which is basically what logic is.This is why I’m fond of the Japanese Zen tradition where the mind is considered about as trustworthy as a crack-addicted chimp.
And this is why I am also quite drawn to the Sivananda Yoga Vedanta practice since there seems to be a good balance of Hatha Yoga, Faith and Philosophy.