I am no longer Hindu

[QUOTE=ejlorge;72976]No, I would say not. But dogma (i.e. Form) isn’t the problem so much as mistaking the dogma for the ultimate truth (i.e. Essence).

I myself am not religious, not because religions entail dogma or ritual, but because I have not found a religion (e.g. cult) which recognizes the peripheral nature of dogma and ritual (if that makes any sense).

Ritual can be a very potent practice, if done responsibly. Mythology is a very potent form of metaphor, if understood correctly.

But they are not the MOST important: Direct Experience for me, is the most important element in gaining spiritual “knowledge”.[/QUOTE]

Bhakti is the least of my dispositions however there seems to have been enough successful trial and error that I myself study and practice.

[QUOTE=ejlorge;72976]

Ritual can be a very potent practice, if done responsibly. Mythology is a very potent form of metaphor, if understood correctly.

[/QUOTE]

for me a ritual,

sort of a warmup

before The game.

Namaste.

Ritual and mythology have their place as long as they support an ideal worth having and aspiring for.

We all have our daily rituals. Like getting up from bed, going to the toilet, brushing our teeth, having a shower, getting breakfast. Rituals are needed in daily life, but we need those rituals that will actually bring us great benefit.

We also have our mythology, common stories we tell, like fables like the hare and the tortoise. The stories from Greek mythology are used commonly in philosophical literature to bear our certain points. To this end, the Puranas in Indian literature are useful, so as long as they bear a philosophical truth or a moral worth teaching.

The problem is that in Puranic Hinduis, the ideal is set very low. For many Hindus they are worshiping an actual god. Vaishnaivists worship Vishnu(Lord Krishna according to them) who lives in heaven(Vaikunta) and who rewards and punished, and incarnates on Earth from time to time. Many are awaiting his latest avatar Kalki to come and solve the worlds problems.

Thus they live in a fantasy world and have the childish temperament to back it up. They are simple people of faith and make images of god in their own image, attributing their own qualities onto him. They like fun and frolics, and so does their god; they get angry and sad, and so does their god. They are people of the book, literally reading their scriptures and believing everything within it and reading metaphorically anything within scripture that modern science has disproven e.g., the Puranas mention that the moon is further away from the Earth than the sun. So is Sarva going to accept this fact? Nope, he will reinterpret it.

Sound familiar? Every religionist does that. These people are not morally, intellectually and spiritually any better than an ordinary person, because religion for them is nothing more than a belief system.

Their low ideal is backed up with low mythology and low ritual. Bizarre stories like flying monkeys from millions of years ago, talking fish, immaculate conception. Bizarre rituals like crawling up the stairs of the temple of their god up and down, fasting a number of days to appease their god, ringing temple bells, bashing in temple baths, subjecting themselves to pain or mortification to win the grace of god.

Low ideals, low mythology and low rituals leads to low people. History will testify that religious people have not proved to be any better than non religious people, in fact in most cases religious people have been the most murderous, deceitful, immoral lot. It was a religious people that burned hundreds of thousands of ‘witches’ It was religious people that in modern day India slaughtered each other during the partition. It is these religious people that cause stampedes in India and trample over one another.

Hindus are mostly made up of these low, simple and common folk today.

Then there are high ideals like self-realization. High ideals are backed with high mythology and ritual. High mythology are like the stories told in the Upanishads or the Yoga Vasistha or the Mahabharata(including the Gita) and Ramayana which explain complex philosophical concepts of Vedanta in story form and make them more enjoyable, palpable and understandable. The device of using stories is a common practice known as “Katha” It matters little, whether the story is fictional or non-fictional, but the message behind the story matters. This is why “Purana” is named as the 5th Veda. But that has nothing to do with the sectarian Puranas that we have in our hands today.

High rituals are rituals that will contribute to the ideal of self-realization: like self inquiry and introspection, contemplation, meditation, pranayama, asanas, mudras, bandhas, mouna, mantra. Practices that will actually produce REAL results. Climbing the stairs of a temple barefooted on broken glass while chanting “Hare Rama Hare krishna” probably wont do anything for you to bring you closer to self-realization, but a round of alternative nostril breathing will definitely calm down your nervous system and work towards purifying your body and reducing anxiety, depression and strengthening your senses.

High ideals, high mythology and high rituals lead to high people. Again, history will testify that if it were not for spiritual visionaries in their respective societies enlightened traditions like philosophy and science would not have been born. The Rishis of India laid the foundation for a glorious intellectual culture in India which lead to the birth of great minds like the holy sages of the Upanishads, Panini, Buddha, Mahavira, Patanjali, Kanada, Gautama, Bharathari, Vyassa etc
In Greece it lead the birth of Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato.

A point to be noted how Indians in the past were pioneers in science and philosophy. Since, the onset of the the Puranic and Bhakti age, Indians are not pioneers in science and philosophy. Most Indians consider the study of philosophy a waste of time today. That is why Indians themselves are a waste of time for the world :wink:

Set your ideal high.

There can not be much better misinformation about Hindu Rituals and Puranas than what Surya Deva wants others to believe in.

Also, most Indians, as of now, are not even keen to know what the Puranas are.I live in a middle-class locality in Bangalore and the school kids are not even able to quote a single story from Ramayana or Mahabharat. Most of them, receive highly westernized education. So only people who are much obsessed with puranas and rituals fall in the category of “sanyasis” who have no other work than believing in them blindly and may be propagating them on internet. Those are the types of people Surya Deva might have come in contact and developed negative tendencies…!!

Puranas never tell anyone that they are absolute truths or scientifically proven ones. The word “purana”, itself says that the things might have existed/happened before, and not that they will happen again.There is much science in ‘puranas’ then can be practically achievable today with current human technology.

Two examples:

  1. There are two terms in Puranas: “KamaDhenu” and “KalpaTaruvu”. ‘Kamadhenu’ means one which gives whatever is asked for. And yes, there are references to this concept in English Science Fiction novels, as some kind of machine which transforms matter from one form to another.
    ‘Kalpa Taruvu’ is a tree which answers any question posed to it. Some form of this is already achieved by Google. And, the algorithms for this question answering process are best implemented with analogy of a tree (Taruvu).

  2. In Mahabharata, there is reference to the episode where 100 Kauravas are born from a somewhat of a process of “cloning”. This type of technology is currently not available to humans. May be it is a future tech thing.

If one reads Puranas in proper light and context, one can see their importance . Same goes for rituals.

There is much science in ‘puranas’ then can be practically achievable today with current human technology.

two examples:

  1. there are two terms in puranas: “kamadhenu” and “kalpataruvu”. ‘kamadhenu’ means one which gives whatever is asked for. And yes, there are references to this concept in english science fiction novels, as some kind of machine which transforms matter from one form to another.

‘kalpa taruvu’ is a tree which answers any question posed to it. Some form of this is already achieved by google. And, the algorithms for this question answering process are best implemented with analogy of a tree (taruvu).

haha rofl

Further to Yaram post on the science of the Puranas talking trees(Google)! :lol:

I present this video: Don’t confuse Puranas (Mythology) and Shruti (Texts of Authority)

The speaker in the video is a prolific academic of Hinduism in the UK, and is a regular speaker at school, colleges and universities, including Oxford.

I visited this forum a couple of years ago and at that time Surya Deva was hell bent to prove that Yoga is Hinduism and that if you practice it you are becoming a Hindu. Today he sings a different tune.
But in-spite of his stand having changed what has not changed is his inner nature. He is still childish and pompous. He still is ego-oriented, argumentative and arrogant. He is just wasting his life arguing endlessly and writing loooong replies. To be sure he is not busy with either his yoga practice or some real job/business.
After his journey to India he is singing a different tune but the instrument is the same. There is a saying in Hindi, ‘Russi jal gayi, bal nahi gya’, meaning that rope is all burnt but its turns (of the threads) are still there!
Of course he is going to write a looooooong rebuttal to this post too! Cos he has the time and the inclination to go along with it.
I love you Surya! I found your posts entertaining today! I shall not be coming along this way sooner( I just stumbled on this thread from googling something) but next time I come by I hope to read some more posts from you which are good as the present ones!

I visited this forum a couple of years ago and at that time Surya Deva was hell bent to prove that Yoga is Hinduism and that if you practice it you are becoming a Hindu. Today he sings a different tune.

I never changed my view on Yoga being Hinduism. I just don’t consider Hinduism a religion, Hinduism is a science and philosophy.

But in-spite of his stand having changed what has not changed is his inner nature. He is still childish and pompous. He still is ego-oriented, argumentative and arrogant.

According to your opinion. I will reserve my opinion on you :wink:

He is just wasting his life arguing endlessly and writing loooong replies.

You are wasting your life replying to my long replies.

Of course he is going to write a looooooong rebuttal to this post too! Cos he has the time and the inclination to go along with it.

Bless you.

love you Surya! I found your posts entertaining today! I shall not be coming along this way sooner( I just stumbled on this thread from googling something) but next time I come by I hope to read some more posts from you which are good as the present ones!

Forever keeping you entertained :wink:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;72989]Further to Yaram post on the science of the Puranas talking trees(Google)! :lol:

I present this video: Don’t confuse Puranas (Mythology) and Shruti (Texts of Authority)

The speaker in the video is a prolific academic of Hinduism in the UK, and is a regular speaker at school, colleges and universities, including Oxford.[/QUOTE]

I watched a few of those vids and that professor is very interesting. My only problem with his approach (which, I’m not sure, but I think is a basic position Advaita Vedanta) is that he places a bit too much importance on rationality. He essentially says that logical argument is THE mode of religious discourse in this age.

Personally, I think it’s fools errand to try and make faith or a spiritual practice conform to intellectual games?which is basically what logic is.This is why I’m fond of the Japanese Zen tradition where the mind is considered about as trustworthy as a crack-addicted chimp.

And this is why I am also quite drawn to the Sivananda Yoga Vedanta practice since there seems to be a good balance of Hatha Yoga, Faith and Philosophy.

It is wise to be skeptical of the activities of the mind, and logic is indeed one of those activities. Logic is basically a set of arguments that logically follow from a basic premise: like 1+1 = 2; 2+4 = 4. This kind of logic is deductive and formal and thus always gives a certain conclusion. However, this logic is actually not a complete system because the 1+1=2 is an unproven assumption.

Formal and deductive logic cannot help us discover anything about reality. There is another type of logic known as scientific logic. Here the premise in the argument is derived from empirical observation itself. Such as the observation of the falling of an object leads to one to derive the law of gravitation. We can see that these these kind of logical derivations to have some grounding in reality.(Hence why we can apply them to the real world) However these are also not complete systems, because they rest on a host of assumptions:

  1. There is a reality
  2. That laws of nature are constant
  3. That our observation is reliable and valid

If you accept these assumptions than one must necessarily derive certain conclusions. If you do not accept the assumptions, then one is not bound to the conclusions. There is another highly logical system known as Samkhya(there are a host of threads in the spiritual forum) where many necessary conclusions are derived like liberation, karma and reincarnation, pure consciousness , primeval matter and cycles of creation and destruction. This is all derived from only one assumption: that there is an observer. If one accepts that there is an observer, one is bound by its conclusions. However, if one rejects the assumption of an observer, then one is not bound by its conclusions.

Now Advaita. The premise of Advaita is not an assumption but an undeniable premise. The reality of awareness, existence and sentience. It cannot be denied, because to deny it we would have to posit a denier. If we posit yet another denier for the denier we have an infinite regression absurdity. Thus we must conclude the denier exists. In Advaita this is called the “self” The knower itself cannot be known through means of knowledge(perception, intellect etc), because the knower precedes all means of knowledge. Yet it’s reality is certain because one cannot deny the fact of ones self. That fact of “I-am-ness” is incontrovertible.

Now, if we derive our logical system from an incontrovertible premise then all conclusions that are derived from it are absolute. Hence why Advaita is presented rationally. None of its truths can actually be refuted because they all logically follow from an absolute truth.

SURYA. sorry. do not have enough time to read all the posts at this moment.
But your first post. the first man you talked to, and asked about controlling the mind and body completly. He was right you know?
Just because he does not know how to stop eating. stop sleeping. and stop the sexual urge. dosnt mean he was wrong. He know what needed to be done, just not how to do it. Complete mastery of body and mind. brings immortality. among other things.
you should have talked to the first man more. :stuck_out_tongue: :slight_smile:

Thanks Avatar, I actually quite liked that man, but I needed to ask myself a serious question: Why do I want to associate with somebody who makes his living through begging and does nothing more with his life than move from place to place and beg? He wanted me to do exactly the same. This is not wisdom in my opinion.

Maybe not wisdom, but he is in fact following the Vedic scriptures. It shows a very high level of commitment.

If he was truly that committed. Chose that life style willingly. " not by circumstance"
Then the question is. What does he do when he is not begging or moving around.
If i knew what i am trying to figure out. And did not have people who relied on me. Had no one that needed me to take care of them. I would willingly choose that life style as well. I have almost moved to india twice in order to choose that life style, so i could commit my time fully to trying to figure out a certain discipline/sadhana.
But! of course going to india will not determine my success. so i did not move.

wisdom is the use of knowledge. 2 men know exactly the same things. one man uses what he knows. the other man ignores what he knows. the wise man is the one who uses what he knows.

The Guru is God. His “son” who is chief, lord, and soverign of this universe - who is known as Christ - is the salvation. Take your refuge in them. If your heart doesn’t see the son then it must be the father.

They, unlike man, are without fault - without deciet, and will, with your devotion (compliance), show you the true way.

Scripture which with your devotion, becomes wisdom and thus your sword.

The Armor is virtue.

The Shield is God.

It is exceedingly difficult to find a saint, a true man of God in this age.

Read the Books. Abrahamic as well as oriental. Find the good teachings.

Take refuge in God. Take refuge in heaven. Forsake the guru as man for the majority (not all) of them are of little value.

Heaven will show you - if you are worthy.

1+1 is not an unproven assumption. you know what 2 means. you know what 1 means. if you have 1, and you have another 1, now you have 2. 2 being another representation for 1 and another 1.

now get this!
1=2
2=1
that is the magic of 3
2=4
4=2
that is the magic of 5.
that is the complete balance.
the balance, and the counter balance.
I have been shown the way.
the walking will not be done for me.
when the way ends, as i stand upon the edge of a cliff. the hard part is over. now i no longer walk. but i fly. but it is not me who flies, but i who is carried. I simply found the holy spirit. thats the hardest part.

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;70579]It’s not just that he has only met bad apples, we’ve all met bad apples, but that didn’t make us leave our religion. The problem is that SD has not met anyone who could stroke his ego and give him some validation.

Can you imagine, Surya Deva walking up to a Sadhu.

SD: Yo dude, I want to be just like you.
Sadhu: Okay man, do what I have done and renounce the world…
SD: No way man, I am out of here…

Surya Deva goes up to a Hindu priest

SD: Hey priest, can you teach me how to be a Hindu
Priest: Well, since you left the Sadhu and didn’t want to become a renunciate and you are well educated and already over 30 years of age, why don’t you get married?
SD: No way man, I don’t have time for a woman. I need at least seven hours a day to post on yogaforums.

Surya Deva goes to a Vedanta Ashrama

SD: Yo, I want to learn philosophy and shit…
Teachers: Sure, let us begin our studies with Sanskrit
SD: No, no. You didn’t understand, I said I already know everything.

Surya Deva goes to a temple.

SD: Hhm, maybe god can give me some answers…
Devotees: showing signs of devotional ectasy.
SD: Oh noes, I have landed right in a scene from Indiana Jones.[/QUOTE]
*laughing my ass hard off right now (I wish I could sig this).

I have been reading up on a lot of past threads and stopped at this one.

All I know here, is that I am [I]really[/I] gonna like this guy. I have totally agreed with everything he’s said on every issue up until now.

…but then again, I would. lulz

Aum Namah Shivaya.

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;70592]In his passion for truth, SD seems to be running everywhere but inside. [/QUOTE]
…and that…SO MUCH of that. I tried here, I really did. :frowning:

Finally:

[QUOTE=Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā;72913]You are making up a story about me and telling what you think Hinduism means for me, but you actually have no idea how in my heart I experience my religion.[/QUOTE]
I also experienced that with SD. If I wasn’t so strong within my own faith, I would have chewed him out for that.

I am not trying to stir up shit or anything here. It’s interesting to read Surya’s background and why he feels this way about Hinduism…about me…

All I can see is just a lot of disappointment, wherever I look. If he could only just ‘lighten up’ for even one minute…bingo.

Sure, I have had bad experiences with Hinduism too, many of them. I left the religion for 10 years until Lord Shiva reminded me recently that he had nothing whatsoever to do with that.

I just didn’t become a Hindu for what I eventually saw Hinduism as…people ‘going through the motions’ without having a clue…where poojas were nothing more than parties and excuses to socialise in finery. I really missed the raw, spiritual power behind it all. It was stupid of me to leave. I know that now…but I have returned now with more than what I left with.

As nobody has brought up this old thread because of my recent criticisms of her, I thought I would requote my refutation of Sarva’s parody of my experiences in India (Sarva by the way was a dishonest Hindu, who actually ganged up against me with Asuri, a member who was banned for his racist remarks against Hindu. At that time time Sarva was against Asuri, but later when he became enemies with me, he and Asuri became best friends and would regularly gang up on me - Sarva only knew how to insult and nothing else, when David enforced the no personal attacks rule and deleted Sarva’s posts - Sarva stopped posting altogether on the forum)

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;70597]Nope, it’s got nothing to do with my ego. Your adhominem is not going to change the fact that millions of Hindu youth today are turned off from Hinduism because of the kind of experiences I recount. Notice how in your parody of my experiences you omit the most negative ones:

The woman acting like Durga herself had entered her at the Devi pooja festival with her baby. A very common sight to be seen at any Hindu religious festival. Stampedes are also very common because of such neurotic behaviour.

The Yoga guru who molested his students in the ashram.

The Krishna monk who tried to steal my music player from the back of my player while I was prostating.

The Sadhus at the Krishna Bhakti ashram that were exploiting the naive Australian seeker and were always high on drugs.

The American Yogi who was persecuted by the Vedanta monks in Utterkashi. Including the nasty gossiping they did about other monks.

The sinister Sadhu that was trying to get me to a remote place with him.

The Vedic scholar who was trying to justify everything within Hinduism, including unscientific statements to be scientific facts: Like the Moon being further away from the Earth than the sun or how we must offer water to the sun, otherwise it will stop burning! This kind of bad science is peddled by many Puranic Hindus, and is just as embarrassing as Christian flat earthers.

The very fact that you would choose to simply brush this under the carpet reveals you are insecure about these facts of Hinduism today. You are thus not somebody who is capable of self-criticism of his religion. You have said a lot of negative stuff about Abrahamic religions both on Yoga forums and HDF, but you cannot take it when the critical eye falls on your religion. Clown.

Now let us look at your trivialization of the real issues at hand in the experiences you did decide to cover:

No, the Sadhu told me not to renounce the world. Reunication is a mental act(Krishna says this in the Gita too) He told me to stop eating, to go on the street and beg and to serve him like a slave just that I could learn some Yoga from him. It is obvious that to learn Yoga one does not have to do any of this, this is why it is a dead tradition. I could learn exactly what he was going to teach me, anywhere else, without going through all this pointless garbage. He is effectively encouraging me to become poor, beg on the street and endanger my well being. Only an idiot thinks this is healthy.

No, he told me that I could not be a proper Hindu unless I spoke Hindi, wore Indian clothes and practiced Indian forms and enter the caste system and practice all ordained duties and rituals for my caste and got married as per the Hindu rules that somebody at the age of 31 has to get married. This immediately excludes anybody who is non Indian, who does not speak Hindu, who wears jeans, shirts and trousers. We know that following these endless set of rules is definitely not a prerequisite to be a Hindu, thus this person definition of being hinges on nothing more blind adherence to an outdated set of rules.
In modern society nobody is obliged to get married, let alone married by a certain age.

Nope, I was told my knowledge of Vedanta was not valid simply because I had learned it by myself(not through an authorized Guru) and through English translations. They were not even prepared to listen to what I already knew about Vedanta. This excludes even Vedanta scholars around the world who have not learned it in from Gurus or in Sanskrit, and yet their knowledge is probably more than a match for these traditionalists. Again the main concern here is blind adherence to tradition, rather than being open to allowing Vedanta to be taught through non traditional means.
A Hindu Vedanta swami that I actually respected, told me how he tried to introduce new things to the tradition by introducing readings of the Yoga Vasistha, but faced a lot of intolerance. He was also open to accommodating the American yogi, but the Vedanta monks were intolerant to him. The monks at his place actively persecuted him, gosspied nastily about him, tried to get him kicked out of India, even sent him hate messages and threats.

Sarva you are a clown. You can’t actually deal with the fact that Hinduism is rife with garbage like I just pointed out and even try to rationalize it by appealing to fallacious arguments of tradition. I am actually in good company, my criticisms of Hindu pointless ritualism and blind adherence to tradition has been voiced by all major Hindu reformers from the great Buddha to Guru Nanak to Swami Dayananda Saraswati. I am not at all afraid of speaking my mind. You can try and belittle me all you want, the truth is you are belittling only yourself by clearly betraying your insecurities.[/QUOTE]