Initiation by Guru

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

hi all,

Here is my situation:

I have a guru who lives in Europe, and I live in the US. He’s the kind that gives shaktipat, though that’s not the only method he will use. I’ve never met him face-to-face. I’ve been working with him for years, and still haven;t awakened kundalini. He’s put a huge amount of effort into me, and I just keep trying.

As things stand, he’s not having much contact with me because he feels I just need to focus on meditation. I agree that I need to focus on mediation, but also think I need a little help. So I had an idea: Why not go to a shaktipat guru that I know of, who is only 2 states away, then come back home and just keep going with the first guru’s practices and teaching? I proposed this to shaktipat guru #2, and he doesn;t have a problem with taking somebody else’s student, but I also get the idea he’d
rather this be my decision. Guru #2 is the type that gives you shaktipat,
then watches over you for about a day (I guess - I have to ask him if the
amount of time can vary), then you go back home and do your own practice on your own.

I think for me the question is, is shaktipat just a matter of the guru injecting generic/universal shakti energy into your subtle body, or is
it more specific and personal, causing a close personal bond with that
specific guru? Or does it depend on the guru? The reason I ask is
that,even though I have not really achieved initiation by guru #1 yet,
I did have an experience of the divinity within him, and there is a strong
bond there.

I don’t want to ask guru #1 what he thinks because he’s not talking to
me right now. I don’t want to ask guru #2 what he thinks because
he would like me to make my own decision. But I don’t know enough
about how this works. If I get initiation form guru #2, would it cause
a bond with him, a bond that I really want with guru #1?

Man…If it’s just a generic energy/shakti thing, I think I wouldn;t feel
bound to guru #2. I don;t think guru #2 is looking for everyone who
comes to him for shaktipat, to become his disciple or something, but
for me guru #1 is very important, and I want to keep that relationship growing.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

#2

I have thoughts but I don’t think they will align with your expectations. But since this is a yoga board I will offer them up and you may take them in the loving way in which they are intended or some other more personal way, it is up to you.

To me there is a much larger question resonating in this post and thus in this issue. And I think that resonance takes on two forms. The first is the pursuit of “awakening Kundalini” and the reasons, motives, and desires behind such a pursuit. To me this is far more critical than which guru and how many and in what location.

I do realize there are some forms or disciplines of yoga that emphasize such a thing. If your answer then is “I am doing _______ yoga and this is why I am striving to awaken kundalini” then it perhaps is best left there. To me, I would still delve into the backing of the pursuit but that is me.

The second issue is the desire for a guru, the choosing of one that is remote, how you are served by such a choice, which we must assume you consciously made and take responsibility for, and why after making such a choice would you entertain any change. That is to say if you are served by one thing then there is no need for a substitute. If you are not served by one thing then it is time to let go of the one thing and grow to the next thing which obviously means not retaining both the one thing and the second thing.

Again, I realize there is tremendous value in having one to shine the light as you move along your path. No question. However I am also aware some may toss their lives into the hands of another without much research or personal clarity which thus makes the choosing a bit murky.

Ultimately, while I’d love answers to some of these things, the bottom line is that if you are called by the voice of the heart, not the voice of the pelvis nor the voice of the mental, then you follow that and there’s no issue at all of which ,where, how, who. There are no feelers to hurt and no toes to step on, there is no path to wander from when you are connected authentically to the heart center as it has no agenda.

#3

[quote=InnerAthlete;6062]I have thoughts but I don’t think they will align with your expectations. But since this is a yoga board I will offer them up and you may take them in the loving way in which they are intended or some other more personal way, it is up to you.

To me there is a much larger question resonating in this post and thus in this issue. And I think that resonance takes on two forms. The first is the pursuit of “awakening Kundalini” and the reasons, motives, and desires behind such a pursuit. To me this is far more critical than which guru and how many and in what location.

I do realize there are some forms or disciplines of yoga that emphasize such a thing. If your answer then is “I am doing _______ yoga and this is why I am striving to awaken kundalini” then it perhaps is best left there. To me, I would still delve into the backing of the pursuit but that is me.[/quote]

Hm…well I didn’t go into this thread thinking people lwould want me to explain why I want it…that would be a long story I think…

The second issue is the desire for a guru, the choosing of one that is remote, how you are served by such a choice, which we must assume you consciously made and take responsibility for, and why after making such a choice would you entertain any change. That is to say if you are served by one thing then there is no need for a substitute. If you are not served by one thing then it is time to let go of the one thing and grow to the next thing which obviously means not retaining both the one thing and the second thing.

Well, to clarify, I’m not entetaining changing one guru for the other. What
I want is a kick-start from guru #2, not any long-term relationship.
I can’t be with guru #1 in person at this time, and I think if I was able to
see him it would be different. I’m not asking whether I should let go of the one thing and grow to the next thing, but whether the next thing might
actually hinder rather than help the one thing.

Again, I realize there is tremendous value in having one to shine the light as you move along your path. No question. However I am also aware some may toss their lives into the hands of another without much research or personal clarity which thus makes the choosing a bit murky.

Ultimately, while I’d love answers to some of these things, the bottom line is that if you are called by the voice of the heart, not the voice of the pelvis nor the voice of the mental, then you follow that and there’s no issue at all of which ,where, how, who. There are no feelers to hurt and no toes to step on, there is no path to wander from when you are connected authentically to the heart center as it has no agenda.

I was fortunate to find somebody who was initiated by guru #2. I asked her
if the experience was more like just an injection of shakti into her subtle body, or whether there was also some kind of permanent psychic bond
that formed. That would answer my question, I’m pretty sure.
If she answers. Then my only consideration would be how it will affect me.

Thanks!

#4

thoughts I have
if you go to guru number two, what is there to loose
are you ttying to map out your future too much by thinking what will happen if you go
according to some things I read, it says it is best to eat local food, is it best to experience a local guru
if guru number one got mad, would he/she be practicing non attachment?

a man walks down one street in his life and one day he weighs his options

a woman walks down many streets and one day she weighs her options

at the moment that is the best assistance I can come up with
good luck in finding what you search for
seeker

#5

I was fortunate to find somebody who was initiated by guru #2. I asked her if the experience was more like just an injection of shakti into her subtle body, or whether there was also some kind of permanent psychic bond
that formed. That would answer my question, I’m pretty sure.
If she answers. Then my only consideration would be how it will affect me.

Obviously she can only tell you of “her” experience and not of “the” experience. But this may be merely semantic.

And since we are all a petri dish of one we cannot know how our experience will be. At the same time we do use the experience of others all the time. It is important to separate out any sense of “a” singluar experience. Your mileage may vary - a lot.

We differ a bit on evolution and enlightenment. And that is okay. I don’t think there’s an appropriate “kick start” just as I don’t think there can be a rushing. A sense of urgency, perhaps. A grapsing that time is short in this incarnation? Sure. It is quite possible your path (which I do not know) involves more struggle (then you are willing to wade through) and a kick start might take you away from the current struggle which is essential for you to wade through, develop patience from, and center around.

To me, when one picks a guru one commits to a certain level of relationship, loyalty, and respect. If one is done with that relationship and its nature then move on honorably. If one is not done then perhaps bringing in another teacher crosses the boundaries of the previously established relationship. Again, this is something only the person can determine, not an outsider like myself.

But it sounds as though you already know what you want to do. And what remains is to determine if it will “hurt” you or your progress. You will find out, but not extrinsically.

#6

[quote=InnerAthlete;6068]
We differ a bit on evolution and enlightenment. And that is okay. I don’t think there’s an appropriate “kick start” just as I don’t think there can be a rushing. A sense of urgency, perhaps. A grapsing that time is short in this incarnation? Sure. It is quite possible your path (which I do not know) involves more struggle (then you are willing to wade through) and a kick start might take you away from the current struggle which is essential for you to wade through, develop patience from, and center around.

To me, when one picks a guru one commits to a certain level of relationship, loyalty, and respect. If one is done with that relationship and its nature then move on honorably. If one is not done then perhaps bringing in another teacher crosses the boundaries of the previously established relationship. Again, this is something only the person can determine, not an outsider like myself.[/quote]

Do athletes ever get a little extra training from a specialist? Does the main coach mind it?

#7

[quote=tubeseeker;6067]thoughts I have
if you go to guru number two, what is there to loose
are you ttying to map out your future too much by thinking what will happen if you go
according to some things I read, it says it is best to eat local food, is it best to experience a local guru
if guru number one got mad, would he/she be practicing non attachment?

a man walks down one street in his life and one day he weighs his options

a woman walks down many streets and one day she weighs her options

at the moment that is the best assistance I can come up with
good luck in finding what you search for
seeker[/quote]

Thank you tubeseeker. No, he didn’t get mad at me, he’s doing what
he thinks is going to help me.

#8

[QUOTE=Tyler Zambori;6070]Do athletes ever get a little extra training from a specialist? Does the main coach mind it?[/QUOTE]
“Yes” and “very much”, respectively.

While it’s not the point (since cultivating a relationship around sports, athletics, and competition is not the cultivation one pursues when selecting a guru with the hopes of releasing kundalini, reaching samadhi, or bringing divinity into matter) I’ll entertain it for that very value.

In all of the levels of basketball in which I was involved, nearly every coach resented another’s interference to one degree or another. It did not matter if the interferer was Dr. James Naismith (the inventor of basketball) or Michael Lowenstein (some child’s father).

This was especially true at the NBA level where many of the top players had personal coaches, trainers, or fitness consultants. Often those folks were “friends” and did not really posses a level of expertise to be anything but meddlesome.

This sort of thing created all sorts of problems, many of which we, in yoga, can easily dismiss as sludge of the Ego.

Coming back around to my bracketed comment in the first paragraph I will cite from my own experience. Bob Knight, the controversial collegiate coach is a master teacher. And I studied his teaching methods first hand. That was a very valuable year for me. However…if one examines Coach Knight’s life, how he lives, one might not care to emulate that. And it is this very thing that guides us in selecting a guru (or yoga teacher). It is not whether they levitate or can do a pose on their thumbs. It is how they live their lives and thus bring yoga into matter, into the real world to actually have an effect on the world as we know it.

So while I have a relationship with Coach Knight and he will always be a master teacher he is not the person who I would have guide me on a quest to narrow the distance between my soul (Self) and my outward expression (self).

But again, it is my nature, this fabric woven between my teacher and me. And it is my ethic and my loyalty and my commitment. It is the relationship I have chosen and the surrender I have accepted. It may not be so for all or for others.

#9

Hi, Tyler.

For me it is obvious that you are uncouraged by the lack of result in your way. This happens a lot of times. Why don’t you discuss this with your teacher nr. 1 ? Be brave. Tell him/her, I don’t think I am advancing here. Don’t mind his/her feelings, he/she is the teacher, and you are the one in need. There is a saying in my native language (hungarian) "A mute child is not understood, even by her mother. " But, he/she being a teacher, you might be surprised by his/her answer. I wouldn’t be surprised if he/she already knew your problem. Remember, he/she is not the one who has to take care of things. He/she just points the way.

That would be my advise in case you had a real teacher-disciple relationship there.

If not, than I’d say that seeking tehniques to get occult powers, and kundalini, and chakras, getting them as gifts, through shaktipat, is something I always resented. What do you need them for ? Yes, they appear appealing at first, for the uninitiated. Later, you realise they are not that marvelous, they are just fully blown flowers of the powers you already have: concentration, intuition, courage, steadfastness, awarness, you name them, I am sure you have a lot of qualities. Why don’t you just work what you have for now ? Exercising them will slowly take you to the top. There is no need of any miracle.

PS. A closer guru, is always better. One can learn a lot just watching how the guru acts, behaves, shortly, lives.

#10

Welcome to the forum Tyler,
After reading everything that you have written, and everything that others have shared with you here, this is the point that really gets a hit for me.[quote=Tyler Zambori;6052]As things stand, he’s not having much contact with me because he feels I just need to focus on meditation.[/quote] There have been times in my own life–I would say daily–that I need to get out of the 3rd kosha (my mind) because I’ve mistakenly believed that this is the right place to do a particular job. I say mistakenly believe because our own minds, with its strategies and vacillating thoughts, are not always the right tool for the this type of work. We need to seek guidance from our [I]higher wisdom[/I] on the 4th kosha and this occurs for most during a meditative practice (what is meditative will occur differently for people). It seems to me, an outsider, that this may be what your Guru #1 is wanting for you.

Have you tried to follow your Guru#1’s guidance of meditation since you’ve received it? Who knows, perhaps going to Guru#2 for shaktipat will be the wisdom and insight that you receive during your Guru#1’s suggested meditation. Stay open to it all and don’t believe everything you think.

Blessings for your good work.

#11

I am new to this forum and am really impressed by the depth of insight by posters(?) Tyler, I think you are really close to finding your answer if you read carefully what was posted. It is your choice in the end. Assuming you are not 95 years old, don’t stress over this. You can make decisions along the way that, right or wrong, wont ruin you. Of course a Guru can help keep the bad decisions to a minimum. My opinion about the Guru is to de-emphasis Guru #1. Good luck with your decision.

#12

[quote=Hubert;6092]A closer guru, is always better. One can learn a lot just watching how the guru acts, behaves, shortly, lives.[/quote] This was an excellent reminder of svadyaya for me. Thank you Hubert, your posts often have this type of gentle reminder for me.

[I]

Om Namah Shivaya[/I]
[I]With great respect and love, I honor my heart, my inner teacher. Namaste.[/I]

                                      -Swami Muktananda
#13

Dear tyler,

It is nice to hear from you and you are doing a meditation practices day by day that is a very big thing ?

now when you explain a guru means a person who guide you ? in our life we had learnt many things from many people and lives but dear friend we can say all of then guru. it means everyone who teaches us will become guru for us.

so dont hestate or feel guilty to go any one who you cinsider a Guru. but keep in mind that dont forget the gurus who had taught you. take thanks of them and serve them as you can.

hari om

Meditation, Meditation Techniques, Kundalini Yoga, Prana Healing, Kirlian Photography, Mantra Yoga, Relaxation Techniques, Kundalini Shaktipat, Advance Yoga, Meditation Retreats - Siddhyog Meditation
siddhyog@hotmail.com

hari om

#14

[quote=Nichole;6093]Welcome to the forum Tyler,
After reading everything that you have written, and everything that others have shared with you here, this is the point that really gets a hit for me. There have been times in my own life–I would say daily–that I need to get out of the 3rd kosha (my mind) because I’ve mistakenly believed that this is the right place to do a particular job. I say mistakenly believe because our own minds, with its strategies and vacillating thoughts, are not always the right tool for the this type of work. We need to seek guidance from our [I]higher wisdom[/I] on the 4th kosha and this occurs for most during a meditative practice (what is meditative will occur differently for people). It seems to me, an outsider, that this may be what your Guru #1 is wanting for you.

Have you tried to follow your Guru#1’s guidance of meditation since you’ve received it? Who knows, perhaps going to Guru#2 for shaktipat will be the wisdom and insight that you receive during your Guru#1’s suggested meditation. Stay open to it all and don’t believe everything you think.

Blessings for your good work.[/quote]

To Hubert: I feel I’d better not write to him just yet. Maybe in a few
weeks, if I make a little progress. I did write it out in a draft letter, just
to get it out, but it’s still addressed to me@me.com.

To Nichole: Fourth kosha? I think I experienced this last week in
mediation, but it did not happen because I willed it to happen.
I don’t know if can “will it” over this issue. I think this is an important
piece of insight though. I am paying attention to how my energetic
system reacts to my considering this option, and I’m not having
problems there, just feeling a bit unsettled mentally.

Yes, I’ve followed his instructions since I received, however, he recently
(this past spring) changed the plan, and I’ m going along with it. I have
more time to meditate this summer, so I can get into it better. Following
his instructions on this is not in question; I will do it either way. I want
to do it. I also want the benefit of having a day in person with somebody
who could transmit this to me, but not feel bound to them beyond that day.

I like this idea, to stay open to it all and not believe everything I think.
I guess I will just take it easy with this decision and try not to have an
analytic fit.

I never heard about these koshas before.

#15

[quote=Nichole;6095]This was an excellent reminder of svadyaya for me. Thank you Hubert, your posts often have this type of gentle reminder for me.
[/quote]

What is svadyaya?

#16

[quote=siddhyogi;6096]Dear tyler,

It is nice to hear from you and you are doing a meditation practices day by day that is a very big thing ?[/quote]

Hi siddhyogi,

Yes I meditate every day.

now when you explain a guru means a person who guide you ? in our life we had learnt many things from many people and lives but dear friend we can say all of then guru. it means everyone who teaches us will become guru for us.
I try to learn from everywhere. Sometimes even on a buddhist forum, even though I’m not into buddhism.

so dont hestate or feel guilty to go any one who you cinsider a Guru. but keep in mind that dont forget the gurus who had taught you. take thanks of them and serve them as you can.

hari om
Ok thank you…it’s good to get a variety of thoughts, and see that not everybody thinks it would be “cheating.”

#17

[quote=InnerAthlete;6077]“Yes” and “very much”, respectively.

While it’s not the point (since cultivating a relationship around sports, athletics, and competition is not the cultivation one pursues when selecting a guru with the hopes of releasing kundalini, reaching samadhi, or bringing divinity into matter) I’ll entertain it for that very value.

In all of the levels of basketball in which I was involved, nearly every coach resented another’s interference to one degree or another. It did not matter if the interferer was Dr. James Naismith (the inventor of basketball) or Michael Lowenstein (some child’s father).

This was especially true at the NBA level where many of the top players had personal coaches, trainers, or fitness consultants. Often those folks were “friends” and did not really posses a level of expertise to be anything but meddlesome.

This sort of thing created all sorts of problems, many of which we, in yoga, can easily dismiss as sludge of the Ego.

Coming back around to my bracketed comment in the first paragraph I will cite from my own experience. Bob Knight, the controversial collegiate coach is a master teacher. And I studied his teaching methods first hand. That was a very valuable year for me. However…if one examines Coach Knight’s life, how he lives, one might not care to emulate that. And it is this very thing that guides us in selecting a guru (or yoga teacher). It is not whether they levitate or can do a pose on their thumbs. It is how they live their lives and thus bring yoga into matter, into the real world to actually have an effect on the world as we know it.

So while I have a relationship with Coach Knight and he will always be a master teacher he is not the person who I would have guide me on a quest to narrow the distance between my soul (Self) and my outward expression (self).

But again, it is [I]my[/I] nature, this fabric woven between my teacher and me. And it is my ethic and my loyalty and my commitment. It is the relationship I have chosen and the surrender I have accepted. It may not be so for all or for others.[/quote]

But, InnerAthlete, if all the top athletes do it, then it seems it’s not quite so verboten after all. Maybe gurus are not as possessive as basketball
coaches?

#18

[quote=Hubert;6092]Hi, Tyler.

For me it is obvious that you are uncouraged by the lack of result in your way. This happens a lot of times. Why don’t you discuss this with your teacher nr. 1 ? Be brave. Tell him/her, I don’t think I am advancing here. Don’t mind his/her feelings, he/she is the teacher, and you are the one in need. There is a saying in my native language (hungarian) "A mute child is not understood, even by her mother. " But, he/she being a teacher, you might be surprised by his/her answer. I wouldn’t be surprised if he/she already knew your problem. Remember, he/she is not the one who has to take care of things. He/she just points the way.

That would be my advise in case you had a real teacher-disciple relationship there.[/quote]

He does a little more than just point the way…

If not, than I’d say that seeking tehniques to get occult powers, and kundalini, and chakras, getting them as gifts, through shaktipat, is something I always resented. What do you need them for ? Yes, they appear appealing at first, for the uninitiated. Later, you realise they are not that marvelous, they are just fully blown flowers of the powers you already have: concentration, intuition, courage, steadfastness, awarness, you name them,
I’m sorry I don;t agree with this, and I consider it to be more than acquiring occult powers…but that’s kind of getting off-track.

I am sure you have a lot of qualities. Why don’t you just work what you have for now ? Exercising them will slowly take you to the top. There is no need of any miracle.

PS. A closer guru, is always better. One can learn a lot just watching how the guru acts, behaves, shortly, lives.
Yes, that’s why I would like a day with potential guru-for-a-day #2.

#19

[QUOTE=Tyler Zambori;6100]But, InnerAthlete, if all the top athletes do it, then it seems it’s not quite so verboten after all. Maybe gurus are not as possessive as basketball
coaches?[/QUOTE]

Hello Tyler,

No one is telling you it is forbidden (verbotten). No one is telling you it is cheating. These are both your words and therefore may emminate from your mind, perhaps as the very question does.

I think, based on the posts, the we are all quite fine with whatever you do though we may prefer you to make a mindful choice (awareness before choice) and to connect with what is right FOR YOU in your heart chakra.

It is perfectly fine to go and study with Sri Chinmoy if you’d like, Reverend Moon if you’d like, Amrit Desai if you’d like, Sai Baba if you’d like. It is no problem. The choice however is based on the nature you have created. It is perfectly fine to study with two gurus or five gurus or no gurus. There is no inherent difference in 1, 5, or zero.

The path of yoga begs us to examine dualities. Am I leaping to this other guru as an avoidance or block or am I making such a leap to bound after my true path? These both must be examined. The tool with which we begin the examination is awareness by way of self reflection (svadhyaya). It is only when we look at the Self that we can understand the self. So what I believe we, the collective, are suggeesting is that you search the Self, your core, your central channel, your soul, your sushumna nadi. And find that answer that dwells there for you.

Just as I do not concern myself with your desire to unleash kundalini (for this is your 100 years and not mine) I do not concern myself with the choice(s) of gurus. But…but when asked I will, within the yogic context, point you yogically, and that, my friend can be done with no attachment to your gurus or your missions. I pose the questions to stimulate you not to judge you.

#20

[quote=InnerAthlete;6102]Hello Tyler,

No one is telling you it is forbidden (verbotten). No one is telling you it is cheating. These are both your words and therefore may emminate from your mind, perhaps as the very question does.

I think, based on the posts, the we are all quite fine with whatever you do though we may prefer you to make a mindful choice (awareness before choice) and to connect with what is right FOR YOU in your heart chakra.

It is perfectly fine to go and study with Sri Chinmoy if you’d like, Reverend Moon if you’d like, Amrit Desai if you’d like, Sai Baba if you’d like. It is no problem. The choice however is based on the nature you have created. It is perfectly fine to study with two gurus or five gurus or no gurus. There is no inherent difference in 1, 5, or zero.

The path of yoga begs us to examine dualities. Am I leaping to this other guru as an avoidance or block or am I making such a leap to bound after my true path? These both must be examined. The tool with which we begin the examination is awareness by way of self reflection (svadhyaya). It is only when we look at the Self that we can understand the self. So what I believe we, the collective, are suggeesting is that you search the Self, your core, your central channel, your soul, your sushumna nadi. And find that answer that dwells there for you.

Just as I do not concern myself with your desire to unleash kundalini (for this is your 100 years and not mine) I do not concern myself with the choice(s) of gurus. But…but when asked I will, within the yogic context, point you yogically, and that, my friend can be done with no attachment to your gurus or your missions. I pose the questions to stimulate you not to judge you.[/quote]

Innerathlete,

I understand, thank you.