Initiation by Guru

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#14

[quote=Nichole;6093]Welcome to the forum Tyler,
After reading everything that you have written, and everything that others have shared with you here, this is the point that really gets a hit for me. There have been times in my own life–I would say daily–that I need to get out of the 3rd kosha (my mind) because I’ve mistakenly believed that this is the right place to do a particular job. I say mistakenly believe because our own minds, with its strategies and vacillating thoughts, are not always the right tool for the this type of work. We need to seek guidance from our [I]higher wisdom[/I] on the 4th kosha and this occurs for most during a meditative practice (what is meditative will occur differently for people). It seems to me, an outsider, that this may be what your Guru #1 is wanting for you.

Have you tried to follow your Guru#1’s guidance of meditation since you’ve received it? Who knows, perhaps going to Guru#2 for shaktipat will be the wisdom and insight that you receive during your Guru#1’s suggested meditation. Stay open to it all and don’t believe everything you think.

Blessings for your good work.[/quote]

To Hubert: I feel I’d better not write to him just yet. Maybe in a few
weeks, if I make a little progress. I did write it out in a draft letter, just
to get it out, but it’s still addressed to me@me.com.

To Nichole: Fourth kosha? I think I experienced this last week in
mediation, but it did not happen because I willed it to happen.
I don’t know if can “will it” over this issue. I think this is an important
piece of insight though. I am paying attention to how my energetic
system reacts to my considering this option, and I’m not having
problems there, just feeling a bit unsettled mentally.

Yes, I’ve followed his instructions since I received, however, he recently
(this past spring) changed the plan, and I’ m going along with it. I have
more time to meditate this summer, so I can get into it better. Following
his instructions on this is not in question; I will do it either way. I want
to do it. I also want the benefit of having a day in person with somebody
who could transmit this to me, but not feel bound to them beyond that day.

I like this idea, to stay open to it all and not believe everything I think.
I guess I will just take it easy with this decision and try not to have an
analytic fit.

I never heard about these koshas before.

#15

[quote=Nichole;6095]This was an excellent reminder of svadyaya for me. Thank you Hubert, your posts often have this type of gentle reminder for me.
[/quote]

What is svadyaya?

#16

[quote=siddhyogi;6096]Dear tyler,

It is nice to hear from you and you are doing a meditation practices day by day that is a very big thing ?[/quote]

Hi siddhyogi,

Yes I meditate every day.

now when you explain a guru means a person who guide you ? in our life we had learnt many things from many people and lives but dear friend we can say all of then guru. it means everyone who teaches us will become guru for us.
I try to learn from everywhere. Sometimes even on a buddhist forum, even though I’m not into buddhism.

so dont hestate or feel guilty to go any one who you cinsider a Guru. but keep in mind that dont forget the gurus who had taught you. take thanks of them and serve them as you can.

hari om
Ok thank you…it’s good to get a variety of thoughts, and see that not everybody thinks it would be “cheating.”

#17

[quote=InnerAthlete;6077]“Yes” and “very much”, respectively.

While it’s not the point (since cultivating a relationship around sports, athletics, and competition is not the cultivation one pursues when selecting a guru with the hopes of releasing kundalini, reaching samadhi, or bringing divinity into matter) I’ll entertain it for that very value.

In all of the levels of basketball in which I was involved, nearly every coach resented another’s interference to one degree or another. It did not matter if the interferer was Dr. James Naismith (the inventor of basketball) or Michael Lowenstein (some child’s father).

This was especially true at the NBA level where many of the top players had personal coaches, trainers, or fitness consultants. Often those folks were “friends” and did not really posses a level of expertise to be anything but meddlesome.

This sort of thing created all sorts of problems, many of which we, in yoga, can easily dismiss as sludge of the Ego.

Coming back around to my bracketed comment in the first paragraph I will cite from my own experience. Bob Knight, the controversial collegiate coach is a master teacher. And I studied his teaching methods first hand. That was a very valuable year for me. However…if one examines Coach Knight’s life, how he lives, one might not care to emulate that. And it is this very thing that guides us in selecting a guru (or yoga teacher). It is not whether they levitate or can do a pose on their thumbs. It is how they live their lives and thus bring yoga into matter, into the real world to actually have an effect on the world as we know it.

So while I have a relationship with Coach Knight and he will always be a master teacher he is not the person who I would have guide me on a quest to narrow the distance between my soul (Self) and my outward expression (self).

But again, it is [I]my[/I] nature, this fabric woven between my teacher and me. And it is my ethic and my loyalty and my commitment. It is the relationship I have chosen and the surrender I have accepted. It may not be so for all or for others.[/quote]

But, InnerAthlete, if all the top athletes do it, then it seems it’s not quite so verboten after all. Maybe gurus are not as possessive as basketball
coaches?

#18

[quote=Hubert;6092]Hi, Tyler.

For me it is obvious that you are uncouraged by the lack of result in your way. This happens a lot of times. Why don’t you discuss this with your teacher nr. 1 ? Be brave. Tell him/her, I don’t think I am advancing here. Don’t mind his/her feelings, he/she is the teacher, and you are the one in need. There is a saying in my native language (hungarian) "A mute child is not understood, even by her mother. " But, he/she being a teacher, you might be surprised by his/her answer. I wouldn’t be surprised if he/she already knew your problem. Remember, he/she is not the one who has to take care of things. He/she just points the way.

That would be my advise in case you had a real teacher-disciple relationship there.[/quote]

He does a little more than just point the way…

If not, than I’d say that seeking tehniques to get occult powers, and kundalini, and chakras, getting them as gifts, through shaktipat, is something I always resented. What do you need them for ? Yes, they appear appealing at first, for the uninitiated. Later, you realise they are not that marvelous, they are just fully blown flowers of the powers you already have: concentration, intuition, courage, steadfastness, awarness, you name them,
I’m sorry I don;t agree with this, and I consider it to be more than acquiring occult powers…but that’s kind of getting off-track.

I am sure you have a lot of qualities. Why don’t you just work what you have for now ? Exercising them will slowly take you to the top. There is no need of any miracle.

PS. A closer guru, is always better. One can learn a lot just watching how the guru acts, behaves, shortly, lives.
Yes, that’s why I would like a day with potential guru-for-a-day #2.

#19

[QUOTE=Tyler Zambori;6100]But, InnerAthlete, if all the top athletes do it, then it seems it’s not quite so verboten after all. Maybe gurus are not as possessive as basketball
coaches?[/QUOTE]

Hello Tyler,

No one is telling you it is forbidden (verbotten). No one is telling you it is cheating. These are both your words and therefore may emminate from your mind, perhaps as the very question does.

I think, based on the posts, the we are all quite fine with whatever you do though we may prefer you to make a mindful choice (awareness before choice) and to connect with what is right FOR YOU in your heart chakra.

It is perfectly fine to go and study with Sri Chinmoy if you’d like, Reverend Moon if you’d like, Amrit Desai if you’d like, Sai Baba if you’d like. It is no problem. The choice however is based on the nature you have created. It is perfectly fine to study with two gurus or five gurus or no gurus. There is no inherent difference in 1, 5, or zero.

The path of yoga begs us to examine dualities. Am I leaping to this other guru as an avoidance or block or am I making such a leap to bound after my true path? These both must be examined. The tool with which we begin the examination is awareness by way of self reflection (svadhyaya). It is only when we look at the Self that we can understand the self. So what I believe we, the collective, are suggeesting is that you search the Self, your core, your central channel, your soul, your sushumna nadi. And find that answer that dwells there for you.

Just as I do not concern myself with your desire to unleash kundalini (for this is your 100 years and not mine) I do not concern myself with the choice(s) of gurus. But…but when asked I will, within the yogic context, point you yogically, and that, my friend can be done with no attachment to your gurus or your missions. I pose the questions to stimulate you not to judge you.

#20

[quote=InnerAthlete;6102]Hello Tyler,

No one is telling you it is forbidden (verbotten). No one is telling you it is cheating. These are both your words and therefore may emminate from your mind, perhaps as the very question does.

I think, based on the posts, the we are all quite fine with whatever you do though we may prefer you to make a mindful choice (awareness before choice) and to connect with what is right FOR YOU in your heart chakra.

It is perfectly fine to go and study with Sri Chinmoy if you’d like, Reverend Moon if you’d like, Amrit Desai if you’d like, Sai Baba if you’d like. It is no problem. The choice however is based on the nature you have created. It is perfectly fine to study with two gurus or five gurus or no gurus. There is no inherent difference in 1, 5, or zero.

The path of yoga begs us to examine dualities. Am I leaping to this other guru as an avoidance or block or am I making such a leap to bound after my true path? These both must be examined. The tool with which we begin the examination is awareness by way of self reflection (svadhyaya). It is only when we look at the Self that we can understand the self. So what I believe we, the collective, are suggeesting is that you search the Self, your core, your central channel, your soul, your sushumna nadi. And find that answer that dwells there for you.

Just as I do not concern myself with your desire to unleash kundalini (for this is your 100 years and not mine) I do not concern myself with the choice(s) of gurus. But…but when asked I will, within the yogic context, point you yogically, and that, my friend can be done with no attachment to your gurus or your missions. I pose the questions to stimulate you not to judge you.[/quote]

Innerathlete,

I understand, thank you.

#21

In an attempt to not take ourselves too seriously, doesn’t all this Guru#1 and Guru #2 talk sound like an episode of [I]The Dating Game[/I]? All we are missing is Guru#3…and polyester leisure suits.

From my experience of Shaktipat–my teacher was authorized by his teacher to transmit Shakti Kundalini–is that without a prepared student, the shakti prana is lost and the benefits cannot be kept by the student. A wise and compassionate teacher (Guru) will prepare their student to [I]receive and benefit [/I]from the shakti prana, not just to experience it and then have it lost to them.

Blessings,

#22

[quote=Nichole;6103]In an attempt to not take ourselves too seriously, doesn’t all this Guru#1 and Guru #2 talk sound like an episode of [I]The Dating Game[/I]? All we are missing is Guru#3…and polyester leisure suits.

From my experience of Shaktipat–my teacher was authorized by his teacher to transmit Shakti Kundalini–is that without a prepared student, the shakti prana is lost and the benefits cannot be kept by the student. A wise and compassionate teacher (Guru) will prepare their student to [I]receive and benefit [/I]from the shakti prana, not just to experience it and then have it lost to them.

Blessings,[/quote]

Actually there is a guru one and a half, but maybe we’d better not go there. Guru one and a half is affiliated with guru #1…but that’s not
part of this issue. :slight_smile: It seems I’m a lot of trouble…but I don’t
mean to be.

#23

[quote=Nichole;6105]From my experience of Shaktipat–my teacher was authorized by his teacher to transmit Shakti Kundalini–is that without a prepared student, the shakti prana is lost and the benefits cannot be kept by the student. A wise and compassionate teacher (Guru) will prepare their student to [I]receive and benefit [/I]from the shakti prana, not just to experience it and then have it lost to them.

Blessings,[/quote]

Ok…I’d say that this as much has anything, convinces me to stick with
guru one and one and a half, even despite my meditation struggles.
I’m sorry I bothered potential guru #2, but then he’s about to go off
to India for a pilgrimage anyway.

I feel like I put myself through the ringer…changing into something
more comfortable than polyester…

Thank you everybody.

#24

[quote=Tyler Zambori;6108]Ok…I’d say that this as much has anything, convinces me to stick with
guru one and one and a half, even despite my meditation struggles.
[/quote]

Sorry…I mean stick with them only.

#25

[quote=Tyler Zambori;6106]Actually there is a guru one and a half, but maybe we’d better not go there. Guru one and a half is affiliated with guru #1…but that’s not part of this issue. :slight_smile: It seems I’m a lot of trouble…but I don’t
mean to be.[/quote]

Ok ,there’s actually a specific reason that guru 1.5 was added in. not
necessarily that I’m a lot a lot trouble…it’s just really hard to do this
over the internet. You get the same communication problems that you
get with regular people.

Anyway, I didn’t realize that this forum was meant for SYT students,
sorry everybody. I do practice yoga for health reasons and because
I like it, but I do the most grounded kind of yoga possible - yoga
for strength. This is separate from what I do with my gurus.

#26

I thought this thread would benefit from Aadil’s message on transmission.
In this video clip, Aadil Palkhivala discusses the absence of one of the two forms of transmission in the modern western world.
And explains that the origin of that absence lies in our obsessive need to constantly feed our own egos.

Namaste

#27

He is such a wonderful speaker. Radiant.

#28

Hari Om

 
Namaste and Hello,
 
I thought , if I may, add to Tyler Zambori's post... I do not have Tyler's answer, but thought a good opportunity to offer some ideas on guru's and the like for your consideration.
 
[B]Who gives you a mantra is of great import[/B]
Diksha guru
The Diksha guru is one God Realized being who can deliver initiation to the sisya (student). Diksha = "da" or to give + "ksi" or to destroy . Obviously , to destroy ignorance of not knowing SELF. The verb base is "diks" "to consecrate , coming from "daks" or to grow or increase.
Rtvic guru
This guru is subordinate to the Diksha guru. The person can initiate on behalf of the Diksha Guru 
Siksha guru
Siksha or "instruction" guru, teaches various categories of knowledge.
Maharshi's and a Brahmarishi fall into this class, as highly evolved Pundits and gurus.
 
[B]Mantra - [/B][FONT=Verdana]man- "manas or mind" and the suffix + -tra meaning, tool, hence a literal translation would be "mind tool".
Typically of two types:
a. [B]Kanthika[/B] or those given expression by voice - some call japa or Kirtan and Bhajan's.
b. [B]Ajapa[/B] - non voiced, and internal to the sadhu - used to transcend.
 
 
[B]Taraka-mantra[/B]
That is, the mantra which takes you across the ocean of samsara.
The Sanskrit word taraka, denotes a star as it traverses in space and acts as a guiding light. A boat is called tari, as it allows one to cross over the waters. But what of the oceans of samsara? Samsara (sr= "to flow" + sam = "together") - what flows together? birth-after-birth.
So, a Taraka-mantra is one that gets you out of the wheel of birth after birth - or brings you to enlightenment.
One Mantra that we all know is Om ( also called Pranava) and is considered Taraka-mantra. Many posts are written on this, so I will hold off on any elaboration.
 
[B][I]Another Taraka-mantra is Rama[/I][/B]. This is of great interest...this mantra is wonderful and has deep roots! 
Rama - defined is from "Ram" " pleasing, to delight", yet it goes deeper. From the Padma-purana, it says " ramante yogino-nante brahmaanande chidaatmani " or ' The one in whose memory yogis revel in the bliss of brahman'. Its the mantra that brings bliss. As bija, we know it as Ram or Rama.
 
The Great rishi Valmilki, at the time named Ratnakar, was fortunate to receive this mantra... yet he said, I cannot pronounce this Rama, please give me something different. So , the sages gave him the mantra Mara - note this is Rama backwards MA-RA. So, as the story goes, he gets absorbed in Samadhi, stays in one spot for a long time and ants build hill around him...being totally absorbed in bliss. When the sages return, they ask him to come out - He comes out fully enlightened (jivanmukti) and they give him his new name Valmilki from 'Valmika' meaning an ant-hill. [/FONT]Valmilki , the author of the Ramayana.
 
So, this name forward or backward is auspicious. A wonderful Mantra of [B]Om Ram Ramaya Namaha [/B]- Note that it is based in several taraka mantras Om, Ram then Ram backwards MA and NA from Narayana . just a most exquisite Pra-siddha mantra.
 
For those of Tantric order Its of great interest and delight to me that Tara ( from "tr" or to cross), a Tantric shakti Goddess is associated with Omkara, as her bija sound is Pranava too - Aum.
 
 
pranams,
#29

Hi tyler

see whatever your question is but once you get shaktipat properly you need to focus on the pinacle not on the guru.

guru is there as a stepping stone when you are in trouble then you definately go to the guru. even when guru requires your help like in monetary, mental or any other ways you must have to stand with him to support him. but that dows not mean that you have to be with the guru.

relation between guru and deciple is a like a relation of husband and wife ??? think about it. help guru as much as possible so that people like you will get more benefiteed by him and by the medium of yours.

hari om

ww.siddhyog.org

#30

[quote=Nichole;6669]I thought this thread would benefit from Aadil’s message on transmission.
In this video clip, Aadil Palkhivala discusses the absence of one of the two forms of transmission in the modern western world.
And explains that the origin of that absence lies in our obsessive need to constantly feed our own egos.[/quote]

This is interesting. I would say that I experienced the first kind
when I first read my ur-guru’s first book, but now I’m going for the
second method.

In his book: “Relating to a Spiritual Teacher: Building a Healthy
Relationship,.” Alexander Berzin explained why Eastern (in this case
Tibetan) methods of dealing with students don;t work so well for
Westerners. It’s because, he said, the Tibetan tends more towards arrogance,
hence the need for the guru to put the student in his place
frequently. Westerners, however, tend towards low self esteem.

Despite the arrogance usually displayed by Americans due to being
part of a wealthy “empire,” I find that low self esteem has certainly
been a huge problem for me. That, and worrying. I do it because
that is what I know, and breaking that pattern is hard, but I’m starting
to see the real benefits of learning to be in the moment.

I find that the alligator brain aspect does come into it, that is, I want
to own that which I have feelings for, but I find if try to scrape that
alligator brain stuff off, it just takes something out of my practice.
So instead I’m trying to be patient and accepting of myself.

So I’m not sure I agree with that guy that we westerners really do
have this obssessive need to feed our egos. We do have a culture
that wants to promote that.

I find the surrender thing can happen by degrees, and with the
development of a great deal of trust over time, and also with
developing understanding about why it’s a good thing.

#31

[quote=siddhyogi;6695]Hi tyler

see whatever your question is but once you get shaktipat properly you need to focus on the pinacle not on the guru.

guru is there as a stepping stone when you are in trouble then you definately go to the guru. even when guru requires your help like in monetary, mental or any other ways you must have to stand with him to support him. but that dows not mean that you have to be with the guru.

relation between guru and deciple is a like a relation of husband and wife ??? think about it. help guru as much as possible so that people like you will get more benefiteed by him and by the medium of yours.

hari om

ww.siddhyog.org
[/quote]

well…As far as I know he is not taking any more students, but I think he considers it devotion if I just make progress.

#32

Also, a few weeks back I was trying to explain to an old friend
how it is that I “rate” two gurus. Maybe it was too weird for
her, because she didn’t respond. My thought is, that it’s better
for me to have two if I need that, than to become a lost cause.
Even if other people think that’s weird. I can’t even mention the
first one to my b/f’s christian family.

I decided not to go to the one in Colorado. Sometimes I feel the
urge to go talk to the buddhist monks that live down the street,
just to have people who are not so worldly-minded to talk to.
But that’s not the same thing, and I probably won’t.

#33

From Swamij.com:

“It is said that when the student is ready, the teacher will come. It is also said that the ideal teacher will come for each student, depending on the aspirations the seeker holds in the heart.”

Friendly greetings