Intelligence and spirituality

Spirituality
#21

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37926]theories… philosophy… metaphysics… spiritual texts…sanscrit sacral books…etc…

how easy is to lose one’s natural connection with the [U]true self[/U]… and get stack with bunch of knowledge…and a desire that comes from the ego to share that knowledge to seem more important to the world:)[/QUOTE]

Absolutely true, but I don’t think that we necessarily start out with a natural connection to the true self. If we have it at all, we tend to lose it at a young age, when our teachers fill our heads with books and learning. I think that most people tend to identify with their mind and emotions. Our minds are naturally churning out of control all the time and we need to learn how to tame them.

There is right knowledge which is valuable and there are valid ways of getting it. Scientific method is a pramana, and a very one too. So are good teachers, and books, and in yoga practice, the most valuable pramana of all is personal experience.

#22

Gee, Yoga seems to have such an aversion to learning, knowledge, education and thinking. Could this be why so many people believe in prana, enlightenment and Chakras?

#23

I agree with Surya Deva that some of the Hindu literature shows a level of intelligence which is very impressive. I wouldn’t go as far as he does in his descriptions, but it sure makes me wonder.

#24

[QUOTE=Asuri;37945]I agree with Surya Deva that some of the Hindu literature shows a level of intelligence which is very impressive. I wouldn’t go as far as he does in his descriptions, but it sure makes me wonder.[/QUOTE]

I would try to avoid the temptation to be seduced by literature that display impressive levels of intelligence. I mean the holy bible and the plays of William Shakespeare contain literature that are intelligent and impressive. But that doesn’t make them true.

#25

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37926]theories… philosophy… metaphysics… spiritual texts…sanscrit sacral books…etc…

how easy is to lose one’s natural connection with the [U]true self[/U]… and get stack with bunch of knowledge…and a desire that comes from the ego to share that knowledge to seem more important to the world:)[/QUOTE]

Bright people always want to show everybody how bright they are, and yes it can be egotistical and annoying. But haven’t you ever come across something that you thought was so great you just had to tell somebody about it? Sure you have, you’re a yoga teacher, aren’t you?

#26

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;37946]I would try to avoid the temptation to be seduced by literature that display impressive levels of intelligence. I mean the holy bible and the plays of William Shakespeare contain literature that are intelligent and impressive. But that doesn’t make them true.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice YogiAdam, but I’m a big boy, and I think I can handle it. I’m capable of critical thinking and don’t swallow things whole, if you know what I mean. I think some of these things are worthy of careful study. If you live a somewhat ascetic lifestyle, as I do, what else is there to do? Play poker, watch football, computer games…what would you suggest?

#27

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;37941]Could it be the other way around? What if it was the ego that was desperate to be ‘spiritually’ developed? I mean there is no evidence anywhere that we even have a ‘true self’. or that ‘spiritual enlightenment’ is even a logical idea. It could be more rational, and considered less egotistical to some, to have the humility and honesty to admit that we have no reason to believe in things like ‘true self’ and ‘spiritual enlightenment’. After all, these things are not scientific. They are religious traditions. [/QUOTE]

Here is the evidence that we do have. There are lots of different kinds of people in the world. Some are born into good families and achieve success, wealth, and happiness in their lives. Others are born into poverty, and live lives filled with hardship and suffering. Why is that? Some wise people have taught us that there are things like a true self and enlightenment, and that the circumstances in which we find ourselves are not simply the luck of the draw. Do you consider yourself to be more wise than they are?

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;37941]
What if those who crave knowledge of the world are not doing it due to an inflated ego, but a genuine curiosity of the amazing world around us. The reality of our universe is awe inspiring and far more breath taking, and humbling than any supernatural ideas we may assert. [/QUOTE]

Well said.

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;37941]
I genuinely feel that ideas like god, true self, and enlightenment are ideas to nurture our ego. These thing help us feel that the universe had us in mind all along, and that the universe revolves around us. I don’t believe the universe revolves around us, and I do love knowledge of the world as it is far more interesting, and humbling than anything else I have ever encounter.[/QUOTE]

It’s good that you have some genuine feelings. I think you are a Buddhist! At some point on the path of enlightenment, there has to be a shift from an egocentric point of view to an other-centric. Buddhists call this boddhisattva.

#28

[QUOTE=Asuri;37949]It’s good that you have some genuine feelings. I think you are a Buddhist! At some point on the path of enlightenment, there has to be a shift from an egocentric point of view to an other-centric. Buddhists call this boddhisattva.[/QUOTE]

I used to be a Buddhist, and I loved the idea of Buddhicahitta and Buddhisattvas. If there wasn’t claims like rebirth, karma and enlightenment, I’d definitely still be one.

#29

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37926]theories… philosophy… metaphysics… spiritual texts…sanscrit sacral books…etc…

how easy is to lose one’s natural connection with the [U]true self[/U]… and get stack with bunch of knowledge…and a desire that comes from the ego to share that knowledge to seem more important to the world:)[/QUOTE]

However, to even know there is a true self somebody has to do the theory. Again many who do Yoga do not appreciate that before Yoga philosophy and practices were developed, some guy had work out the theory.

The car that you drive(I am assuming you drive!) first begin as theory. Some guy/s had to some really hard work in the mental lab to build you that car.

Likewise, Yogic techniques like meditation, asana and pranayama did not just materialise out of thin air. They are the application of Samkhya theory(which is basically metaphysics)

#30

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;37941]Could it be the other way around? What if it was the ego that was desperate to be ‘spiritually’ developed? [/QUOTE]

No development would occur i guess… Just like a flower that is blooming but was never pollinated…

#31

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;37946]I would try to avoid the temptation to be seduced by literature that display impressive levels of intelligence. I mean the holy bible and the plays of William Shakespeare contain literature that are intelligent and impressive. But that doesn’t make them true.[/QUOTE]

The Bible (and alike) is the only one book that contains everything. I wish I’ve never read anything else…

Being illiterate does not mean being unhappy…

#32

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37838]Yes, because a genius always creates. [/QUOTE]

They create just because they want to be appreciated and remembered after their death…thats it.

Do you think Jesus or Buddha wrote anything…but their followers did…

And this does not mean that their “creations” are worthless…

#33

[QUOTE=Asuri;37947]Bright people always want to show everybody how bright they are, and yes it can be egotistical and annoying. But haven’t you ever come across something that you thought was so great you just had to tell somebody about it? [/QUOTE]

yes, but just practical things. I do not like blah-blah.

I grew up in the forest and I was much more connected to the Divine then than now, after I have read millions of books

#34

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;37952]I used to be a Buddhist, and I loved the idea of Buddhicahitta and Buddhisattvas. If there wasn’t claims like rebirth, karma and enlightenment, I’d definitely still be one.[/QUOTE]

Adam, I have said this before and i will repeat.

Some things are allegories. Do not take everything so factual.

#35

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37958]They create just because they want to be appreciated and remembered after their death…thats it.

Do you think Jesus or Buddha wrote anything…but their followers did…

And this does not mean that their “creations” are worthless…[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily, you can create something to further the progress of society and not even put your name to it. Buddha created the 8-fold path, is it because he wanted people to remember him after he was dead, or because he he felt compassion for people and wanted to liberate them from suffering?

#36

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37960]Adam, I have said this before and i will repeat.

Some things are allegories. Do not take everything so factual.[/QUOTE]

I don’t take everything as factual… I do take many things as fictional

#37

They are multiple intelligences. Intelligence is not knowledge. It is not because someone in some remote village is not academically educated than he is not intelligent even if complex environments tend to stimulate more the intellect. Intellect is a tool we can use in many ways. Being ignorant of spiritual or worldly things is not a virtue neither. Yoga is very much about knowledge and truth and not obscurantism. A good physical body, a strong nervous system, a pure vital, a controlled and intelligent mind are assets on the spiritual path. The person can have more potentialities and be a refined vessel for karma yoga. Ego has its use but must be overcome for a harmonious individuality. There are many facets to Yoga, the intellectual can go for jnana yoga, but it is not the only way, more emotional and practical people have generally inclinations for bhakti yoga and karma yoga. The contemplative ones can be attracted by raja yoga. All of these yogas can be combined on a path of spiritual evolution and self-perfection.

Philippe

P.S.: Impressive literature can be spiritually stimulating even if the background is not true for instance Paradise Lost from John Milton, The Divine Comedy from Dante, Kalidasa’s poetry…

#38

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;37942]Yes, I definitely agree that thinking is an obstacle on the spiritual path. If you want to be spiritual Yulaw, try not to think. In fact avoid any use of the brain :)[/QUOTE]

I don’t think it is avoiding using the brain it is more not to over think something or rush towards something or try and force it. And to be honest I am not sure I want to be spiritual or “enlightened” at all. Of late I am beginning to think that the group desire to be spiritual, which seems to be growing in the west, may not necessarily a good thing, but then I could be wrong and the vote is still out on that one. I also do not understand the compartmentalization of spiritual or “enlightenment” form everyday existence

I keep thinking about something I read a long time ago that basically says if you name something it becomes a word and with that word there are all sorts of predefined boundaries and preconceptions

#39

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37959]yes, but just practical things. I do not like blah-blah.
[/QUOTE]
I think you will find lots of agreement on that point.

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37959]
I grew up in the forest and I was much more connected to the Divine then than now, after I have read millions of books[/QUOTE]

I have sought out natural settings throughout my life, mountains, woods, oceans, rivers, etc., so I think I understand how you feel. I’m a little curious, though. Do you equate nature with the divine? For me it is the peacefulness of nature that makes it easier to calm down internally. Last night, though, in the woods behind my apartment, something was screaming bloody murder as it was being killed, so the connection with nature isn’t always peaceful.

I think what you’re saying though, is that mother nature is closer to god than human nature, with its constant babble of words and thinking, right?

#40

[QUOTE=Yulaw;38003] And to be honest I am not sure I want to be spiritual or “enlightened” at all. Of late I am beginning to think that the group desire to be spiritual, which seems to be growing in the west, may not necessarily a good thing, but then I could be wrong and the vote is still out on that one. I also do not understand the compartmentalization of spiritual or “enlightenment” form everyday existence.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think enlightenment is necessarily spiritual. I’ve said a few times before on this forum that the “enlightenment” of yoga has practical applications. If you look at Patanjali’s descriptions of the higher states of samadhi, which results in flashes of insight, he states that insight relates to particulars of objects. So in that model, enlightenment takes place in incremental steps and is always related to a particular subject matter. Later in the sutras, he says OR in a flash of illumination, one becomes all-knowing or something of that nature. I think this represents a debate over what constitutes “enlightenment”. On the one hand you have the scientific people, like Einstein or even Bill Gates who could be considered enlightened people. In both of these cases, their work had profound benefits for the entire world. On the other hand you have people like Buddha and Padmasambhava, who’s work was much different but also had profound benefits for the world. Go figure.