Intelligence and spirituality

I was thinking about relationships and interrelationships of these two.

The ego would defend intellect as a tool for acquiring spiritual knowledge. But the most truly spiritual people I ever met were in a deep-deep villages of different countries. They have never heard of any famous spiritual teachers, never read any books, never watched tv about “how to become spiritual” and etc.:wink:

But I still amazed by their pure spiritual faith, attitude towards the world and people around. It is absolutely fascinating how they keep their life simple and carry everyday routine tasks with a joy. (Of course, being spiritual in the rural mountain village is easier than in the “spiritual fever” of Modern World. There are so many “teachers” who want you to KNOW their way, read their books about how to get enlightened, watch endless utube videos of “jumping levitation miracle”, etc.

I think that we were born happy and “enlightened”, and connected with the spirit.:stuck_out_tongue:

The more we KNOW the LESS we tend to TRUST… :frowning:

Do you think that an intelligence is an obstacle on the spiritual path?:confused:

Hi CityMonk,

Interesting post.

I think the ego is very much connected to the intellect if we think we know everything and have all the answers. I have learnt a great deal from very simple people and very intelligent people, and I respect both equally. I do not believe that intelligence should be an obstacle on the path to spirituality, but it certainly will be if your ego is attached to it!

I’m a strong believer that one can be as spiritual living in a hectic city, as you can living in a cave in the middle of nowhere, spirituality is a state of mind not environment. I think the difference between ‘us’ and ‘villagers’ is our [U]priorities[/U], we have lost touch with what is really important, they have not and therefore seem more [U]content[/U].

We all have the same level of spirituality - the divine self within me is also within you. :slight_smile:

Hi, CityMonk.
The meaning of spirituality can be felt, but what is intelligence?
I guess its not collecting great amounts of false information, so those people from deep villages, you mentioned, dont lose in intelligence by default to us, who live in big cities.
It may be karma that holds us here and them there. :wink:

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37573]
The more we KNOW the LESS we tend to TRUST… :frowning:
[/QUOTE]
Good phrase!

Of course, intelligence cant be an obstacle. Its a light.

[QUOTE=omamana;37575]

We all have the same level of spirituality - the divine self within me is also within you. :)[/QUOTE]

some people just have to “gig deeper” ;):stuck_out_tongue:

[QUOTE=Sasha;37577]Hi, CityMonk.
The meaning of spirituality can be felt, but what is intelligence?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, by intelligence I mean knowledge, including all kinds of mental spam:), book about metaphysics, psychology, quantum world, anatomy and brain science… discussions about “whether Yoga is a Hinduism or not…” and things like that …
do we really need all this baggage of information to connect with the Divine?

Once you connect to the divine you still need to work in the world. Buddha did not disappear of the face of the planet after attaining enlightenment, rather he went about teaching others how to get enlightenment. All of the enlightened masters and spiritual masters work towards social progress, this includes scientific progress.

Many of the great works on metaphysics and psychology have been written by spiritual masters themselves.

Actually this a a very good question, and one that was debated and discussed by the ancient philosophers. Also, the distinction between knowledge and intelligence is important. Some schools of thought believe that the light of intelligence is the essential nature of the spirit itself. It is a fundamental error to confuse that intelligence with the mind, or the ego, or the power of discernment. [I]Right[/I] knowledge is essential to any goal that you seek.

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37573]Do you think that an intelligence is an obstacle on the spiritual path?:confused:[/QUOTE]

I most definitely think a spiritual path can be an obstacle to our intelligence.

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37580]
do we really need all this baggage of information to connect with the Divine?[/QUOTE]

The short answer is no. What you need is right knowledge, but how do you know what is right?

[QUOTE=Asuri;37813]The short answer is no. What you need is right knowledge, but how do you know what is right?[/QUOTE]

hare it is again… DO YOU KNOW?.. no one knows anything for sure… knowing is the “function” of the manas…which can be very missleading.

The more we know the more we doubt. The more we doubt the less faith we have. Right?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;37640]
Many of the great works on metaphysics and psychology have been written by spiritual masters themselves.[/QUOTE]

This is a good point.

But do you think they would right anything if they were really enlightened? Would they care about anything then?

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;37714]I most definitely think a spiritual path can be an obstacle to our intelligence.[/QUOTE]

The more I think about it, the better I like it.

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37817]hare it is again… DO YOU KNOW?.. no one knows anything for sure… knowing is the “function” of the manas…which can be very missleading.

The more we know the more we doubt. The more we doubt the less faith we have. Right?[/QUOTE]

I don’t know. I don’t want to think about it right now. How do we know what is right? It’s a philosophical question. Different schools have different answers. It’s called epistemology.

The simple spiritual people you talk about, maybe they don’t know a lot about philosophy and metaphysics and things like that, or maybe they know more than you think. But whatever it is that they know, they believe it is right, and that is enough for them.

Right knowledge. Everybody needs it. Would you go to a dentist who didn’t know the right way to work on your teeth? Prama is Sanskrit for right knowledge. Pramana is the means of getting right knowledge.

Metaphysics and philosophy:

  1. Is it right?
  2. What do you need it for?

Maybe the order of the questions should be reversed. Why bother to spend the time figuring out what “knowledge” is right, when you have no need of the “knowledge” in the first place? And if it isn’t right, it isn’t really knowledge after all, is it? So your question …DO YOU KNOW?.. is right on the mark. Philosophy cannot claim to be knowledge, it is speculation, theories, and models that may be useful, if not factual. Theories, in order to be considered factual, have to be proved, which brings us back to the question, how do we know what is right? Scientific method?

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37818]This is a good point.

But do you think they would right anything if they were really enlightened? Would they care about anything then?[/QUOTE]

Yes, because a genius always creates. When one awakens the divine intelligence within themselves they also open the door to creative intelligence, and creative intelligence creates. It from this this intelligence great discoveries are made that will take society further in its development.

For example the Risis who had reached enlightenment used their enlightenment to create a Vedic society. Literally a knowledge-based society. In which everything was governed by scientific principles to create the ideal conditions for individual and collective growth. This lasted for thousands of years and reached great heights.

You should read on these great sages they had incredible skills of memory, calculation, intelligence and at the same time were enlightened, joyous, wise and loving. I will introduce you to some of those great Risis:

Rishi Panini’s was a grammarian and he wrote the Ashtadhyayi, it is a treatise on grammar which is able to through 4000 simple algaberic like rules construct the entire grammar of Sanskrit in a computerized system similar to the precision and computer power of a Turing machine(a power theoretical logical computer on paper) and processes Sanskrit sounds like machine code. Still today scholars look at this man and his work, and wonder how could a single man have achieived this. They call his work, “a monument of human intelligence” Linguistics opine that the work is so advanced, than it may continue to inform linguistic science right up to the 22nd century.

Risi Pingala was a Sanskrit musical theorist who composed the Chandashastra he was able to give dozens of different kind of metres and arrange metre by using binary codes and hashing algorithms(converting number to binary and vis versa) Another beauty of his system is that he was able to create a system of poetry that had mathematical precision such that the mathematical structure of poem when examined would produce geometry. He could created systems of metaphor where a Sanskrit poem when read forward would give a cogent and poetic question, and when read backwards it would reveal a cogent and poetic answer. Again to imagine what kind of intelligence one would need to accomplish this.

Rishi Sushruta was an surgeon. He wrote the Sushruta Samhita which comprises 1200 diseases scientifically classified with symptology, etiology, diagnosis and treatments listed. It lists about 500+ drugs of herbal, metallic, chemical, animal subsstances. He listed 300 different types of surgicial procedures, of which there are 51 alone for the eyes. His techniques in plastic surgery are still used today.

Rishi Patanjali was a psychologist and phenomenologist. He wrote the Yogasutras(as you will clearly know) In the Yogasutras Patanjali delinates scientifically the entire journey from beginning to end of meditation and describes all the key stages and gives precise definitions as well describing the classical 8-fold framework. Inherent in Patanjali’s works are modern psychological theories like learning theory, psychodynamic theory and cognitive-behavioural theory.

These great masters probably had IQ’s for which we have no celing. Perhaps 1000+. However, this is what we all have to look forward to when we reach enlightenment. A complete opening up of all our faculties. Imagine a civilisation where the average IQ of people is 200+ It would be a a civilisation of genius. This is what I believe the Vedic civilisation was in the golden age.

I will mention Rishi Kapila also because his work on metaphysics the Samkhyakarika, which was later written down by Ishvarkrishna is an absolute genius. He is able to just through the power of reasoning alone explain the entire structure of the universe, the stages of evolution of the universe, the interaction between the subject and the object and the cause of suffering with a precise rational logic. Inherent in his work are modern theories of Quantum Mechanics and Superstring theory. Also is within this work where we find the description of the subtle body and its various dimensions and the causes for reincarnation and evolution.

It has been described by scholars as one of the crowning achivements of human reason. How reason can be used to literally delinate the entire cosmology of the universe without a single empirical experiment and produce the same result. It is Kapila Samkhya system which is adopted by Patanjali in order to create a practical system of directly experiencing the predicates of Samkhya theory.

[QUOTE=Asuri;37831]Philosophy cannot claim to be knowledge, it is speculation, theories, and models that may be useful, if not factual. Theories, in order to be considered factual, have to be proved, which brings us back to the question, how do we know what is right? Scientific method?[/QUOTE]

theories… philosophy… metaphysics… spiritual texts…sanscrit sacral books…etc…

how easy is to lose one’s natural connection with the [U]true self[/U]… and get stack with bunch of knowledge…and a desire that comes from the ego to share that knowledge to seem more important to the world:)

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37926]theories… philosophy… metaphysics… spiritual texts…sanscrit sacral books…etc…

how easy is to lose one’s natural connection with the [U]true self[/U]… and get stack with bunch of knowledge…and a desire that comes from the ego to share that knowledge to seem more important to the world:)[/QUOTE]

Good point CityMonk!

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37573] Do you think that an intelligence is an obstacle on the spiritual path?:confused:[/QUOTE]

No, but I am beginning to feel that talking and thinking can be.

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37926]theories… philosophy… metaphysics… spiritual texts…sanscrit sacral books…etc…

how easy is to lose one’s natural connection with the [U]true self[/U]… and get stack with bunch of knowledge…and a desire that comes from the ego to share that knowledge to seem more important to the world:)[/QUOTE]

Could it be the other way around? What if it was the ego that was desperate to be ‘spiritually’ developed? I mean there is no evidence anywhere that we even have a ‘true self’. or that ‘spiritual enlightenment’ is even a logical idea. It could be more rational, and considered less egotistical to some, to have the humility and honesty to admit that we have no reason to believe in things like ‘true self’ and ‘spiritual enlightenment’. After all, these things are not scientific. They are religious traditions. What if those who crave knowledge of the world are not doing it due to an inflated ego, but a genuine curiosity of the amazing world around us. The reality of our universe is awe inspiring and far more breath taking, and humbling than any supernatural ideas we may assert. I genuinely feel that ideas like god, true self, and enlightenment are ideas to nurture our ego. These thing help us feel that the universe had us in mind all along, and that the universe revolves around us. I don’t believe the universe revolves around us, and I do love knowledge of the world as it is far more interesting, and humbling than anything else I have ever encounter.

[QUOTE=Yulaw;37939]No, but I am beginning to feel that talking and thinking can be.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I definitely agree that thinking is an obstacle on the spiritual path. If you want to be spiritual Yulaw, try not to think. In fact avoid any use of the brain :slight_smile: