Is Buddhism a religion?

Quote:
There is no permanent or unchanging self.
There is no real enduring personality. We label who we are. Tall, short, blonde, etc.
This is not us. There is no “I” or “mine” We are constantly changing. WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS WE WERE AT TIME OF BIRTH, ONE MINUTE AGO OR 30 YEARS AGO.
Contrary to what you may think or what you’ve been told, this is the Buddhist way. Period. Don’t try to look or judge it through the eyes of a Christian. You may not agree with it because your beliefs are different. They is contrary to some of your beliefs. So for you it is a wrong way to view it. But it is not so for a Buddhist.
Now you are preaching at Thomas. Thomas has asked you a very simple and direct question, he accepts that he has changed physically, mentally and emotionally many times over 50 years, but he remembers himself as the same person whose gone through all those changes and remembers those changes. Then who is the one that remembers?

This has got nothing to do with Thomas being a Christian or myself being a Hindu. We are asking you a reasonable question, and expecting a reasonable answer. You are obviously growing frustrated because you don’t have a reasonable answer. Much like how any religious person gets when their religious beliefs are questioned.

I gave a reasonable answer. More times than I can count.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;44048]Unfortunately, as me, Thomas and any rational reader can see the Buddhists here are hopelessly contradicting themselves. They say there is no self, and yet they still talk as if they exist. If you say something to them that offends, they say I have been offended. They talk about their husband and wives, their friends, their family, their life, their experiences, their posts( :wink: )

They talk about all desire being the cause of suffering. And yet they desire to reach enlightenment, be happy, loving and compassionate. They desire to eat, drink and live. They desire to post on this forum :wink:

A Buddhist is a walking-talking contradiction.[/QUOTE]

Or any rational reader can see that you and Thomas simply do not understand… it all depends on your point of view

Ouch, we appaear to have touched a nerve. I am sorry your religious sensibilities have been hurt, but you do have to take stock of the fact that this is the religion forum and here we discuss and debate religions. You have to have a thick skin in order to post here and be prepared to address criticisms of your religion. I have faced criticisms of Hinduism, Thomas has faced criticism of Christianity, and now you are facing criticisms of Buddhism. The difference is we could take it, you obviously are finding it hard to. I can only counsel then, perhaps you should stay away from the religion forum :slight_smile:

My “religious” sensibilities have not been hurt. First because I am not religious and second, because I’m not always sensible!

I have just grown tired of it all. All of this. This negativity. It’s like a virus that eats away at the forum. There is so much beauty in this world and I keep thinking why am I continuing to post here where it is negative and pointless. Neither you or Thomas really want to understand other religions. Be honest. All you seem to enjoy is tearing them down.

Mr Surya Deva,

You have truly perfected the art of putting words into peoples mouths. Congratulations!
Did anyone who is Buddhist ever say the “DESIRE” to reach enlightenment? The answer is NO!

No, but then again do you not have to say it. It is implied. It is obvious to everybody that a Buddhist wants enlightenment. This is the goal of Buddhism. You would not be putting yourself through all that pain sitting long hours in meditation if this was not true. You want enlightenment. Nothing wrong with that, I think myself and Thomas would respect your religious goals more if you were honest about it.

Honesty has been a recurrent theme in my criticisms of your views. Interesting.

Of course we talk about our lives. Enlightenment has not yet been reached. We use I because are are still striving. Striving toward the end of suffering and Nirvana. You seem to be on quite a different path, promoting the suffering of others.

So you use I for practical purposes, but do not believe it exists? If that is the case then why are you emotionally invested in the “I” Why did you react with outrage when I said that your husband is either an imposter or the anatta doctrine is false. You said to me, “My husband has worked his ass off” Why do you react with such great frustration and threaten you will leave the forum and call this sad, if you do not believe there is no you? I am sorry but actions speak louder than words, and it is clear to any objective person you believe in the “I” and are as invested in it, as the average joe.

Again, be honest.

You tutorial about your Buddhist retreat is plagued with errors and misconceptions. One very glaring one is you stating that Buddhists believe in nothingness. That is an absolute falsehood! People who are not familiar with Buddhism often say this along with the nihilism claim. What Buddhists believe is “emptiness” the “void”. This does not mean void of everything. Quite the contrary. It means EVERYTHING. You don’t understand the self FROM A BUDDHIST PERSPECTIVE AT ALL.

I am familiar with Shunyatavada(doctrine of void/emptiness) and it is definitely believed that everything is ultimately void. The void is everything. If you dissect any concept, object ultimately you reduce it to nothingness. You can no longer claim I am ignorant of Buddhism. I studied Buddhism at university, I did my exam question on Buddhism and now I have actually lived like a monk in a Buddhist centre for a week.

You have said nothing so far, which shows your knowledge of Buddhism is any more stronger than mine is. The chances are, I know Buddhism better than you do :wink:

And now I will sound like Yulaw who I greatly respect. It was a mistake on my part to write religion. I have, to my defense, stated that there are those Buddhists who believe it is so. I am not one of them.

No worries, I expected this of you :wink: Like I said Buddhists are walking-talking contradictions. One moment they say something, the other moment they say the opposite. And this is to be expected from a religion where change is seen as sacred.

However, for the reasonable person somebody who does not have a stable and coherent viewpoint has no credibility. Why should I, or any other reasonable person, take you seriously, when you yourself do not take anything you say seriously.

After all you do not exist, so why should I take anything seriously by somebody who does not exist :wink:

I gave a reasonable answer. More times than I can count.

In your mind that maybe the case, but in actuality you have still not answered our simple question: Who is the one that remembers the changes and remembers themselves as the person who witnessed those changes over 50 years?

An objective reader can clearly see now that Buddhism is a religion and the Buddhists posting here are religious. The Buddhists have lost this debate :wink:

t has come to mmedate attenton ther are ndvduals wth ntensons to be a bt rrtatng n ther nsstance about the ncluson of the partcular use of the n buddhsm so 'm leavng t out
hope ths satsfes and doesnt convennce you.

Ps not really here

VOD < 0…ok

Not here

g o n e

No, but then again do you not have to say it. It is implied. It is obvious to everybody that a Buddhist wants enlightenment. This is the goal of Buddhism. You would not be putting yourself through all that pain sitting long hours in meditation if this was not true. You want enlightenment. Nothing wrong with that, I think myself and Thomas would respect your religious goals more if you were honest about it.

Now this is funny. You the Philosophical debater, assuming. Funny. Very funny.

Nothing dishonest about my goals.

Honesty has been a recurrent theme in my criticisms of your views. Interesting.

So are you calling me a liar? Interesting. There is no need on my part to defend this attack.

So you use I for practical purposes, but do not believe it exists? If that is the case then why are you emotionally invested in the “I” Why did you react with outrage when I said that your husband is either an imposter or the anatta doctrine is false. You said to me, “My husband has worked his ass off” Why do you react with such great frustration and threaten you will leave the forum and call this sad, if you do not believe there is no you? I am sorry but actions speak louder than words, and it is clear to any objective person you believe in the “I” and are as invested in it, as the average joe.

Again, be honest.

You keep bringing this up WHY? I think saying my husband worked his ass off for his degree does not equate with anger. You on the other hand, if you shared more of that debate, were angry with me. Yes, let’s be honest.

No worries, I expected this of you Like I said Buddhists are walking-talking contradictions. One moment they say something, the other moment they say the opposite. And this is to be expected from a religion where change is seen as sacred.

You know so little SD.

However, for the reasonable person somebody who does not have a stable and coherent viewpoint has no credibility. Why should I, or any other reasonable person, take you seriously, when you yourself do not take anything you say seriously.

After all you do not exist, so why should I take anything seriously by somebody who does not exist

Personal attacks. Again, you know so little.

In your mind that maybe the case, but in actuality you have still not answered our simple question: Who is the one that remembers the changes and remembers themselves as the person who witnessed those changes over 50 years?

Why bother, to be honest. It matters not what I, yes I say. It will be disregarded as fluff.

I am familiar with Shunyatavada(doctrine of void/emptiness) and it is definitely believed that everything is ultimately void. The void is everything. If you dissect any concept, object ultimately you reduce it to nothingness. You can no longer claim I am ignorant of Buddhism. I studied Buddhism at university, I did my exam question on Buddhism and now I have actually lived like a monk in a Buddhist centre for a week.

Yes I can. Again, you know so little.

Or like I said before based on SD’s post… any rational reader can see that SD simply does not understand… it all depends on your point of view

But either way it is not worth getting upset about…SD is right…as usual… and if you doubt him all you need to do is ask him and he will tell you how right he is.

You cannot debate, argue or discuss with a person with a closed mind that knows they are right no matter what the truth might be

I admit I don’t understand what it means that I have no “self.”

I wish someone would explain that.

I know at times I’ve been selfless, and cared more about others. A greater amount of the time, I’ve been selfish, thinking mostly about “number 1.” There are times when I want to be with others, but there are times when I want to be just “by myself.”

Who is this “self” we talk about? If it’s an “illusion” then am I not being deceived? If so, then who is being deceived?

I have memories of when I was in grade school, high scool, and college. Any point in that time line I could look back to where I was the year before. My knowledge increased. I became taller. My externals changed continuously, yet there was a certain “core” that seems to have been constant–like an observer throughout my life, watching myself grow and learn, get married, raise children, etc. This “center” is what seems to be “me” and this “me” has been substantially constant, perhaps changing in some ways, but in growth and development, not in becoming something different.

I also asked a legitimate question several times in several ways that has never been answered–Is the self like a drop of water that becomes one with the ocean, or like an ice cube the melts into one big puddle? That’s what the Buddhist seems to be saying, but if not, can someone illustrate it in a way I could understand?

Stop wishing, stop craving, and stop longing all this leads to suffering.

Just know, just except, and just understand

Don’t think…do

Live for today not for tomorrow

If all you focus on is the end you will miss now

You concentrate on the reward, heaven, god, eternal reward and you miss now, and you miss life, which is suffering.

These things are not either/or.

One can think AND do.

One can think about the reward, AND enjoy life.

We would not have any good things without desire.

I can agree, of course, that wrong desires can lead to suffering.

But I’m perplexed how anyone can think good desires are bad.

Think Quantum Physics or a drop of water whatever you like it is pretty much up to you to figure it out it is not something that you can be told and if I had to guess most Buddhist would tell you that you’re thinking way too much.

I just need to add that SD’s tactic is to get up Lotusgirls nose by bringing up the word honesty to dig and her husband to dig deeper…this is to keep the fire stoked else it might go out…

Perception and form are both false SD and Thomas??we need to relinquish our attachment to them…
sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thinking is unreal…will that do SD and Thomas…so this makes Lotusgirl spot on chappies…sorry SD and Thomas…both of you are up the creek without a paddle.

Now no boo hooing you two…my vision has come back again…baseball caps turned sideways, noses running, long shorts below the knee, spitting on ground every few feet, kicking the dust as you go whilst chewing gum and carrying Superman comic in back pockets…ahh yes, i see it …xxx

Thomas

I admit I don’t understand what it means that I have no “self.”

Yep this is because of ego Thomas…this is why xx

[QUOTE=thomas;44073]These things are not either/or.

One can think AND do.

One can think about the reward, AND enjoy life.

We would not have any good things without desire.

I can agree, of course, that wrong desires can lead to suffering.

But I’m perplexed how anyone can think good desires are bad.[/QUOTE]

The desires are not good or bad it is the desiring that is the issue and your thinking way to much

Perception and form are both false SD and Thomas??we need to relinquish our attachment to them…
sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thinking is unreal…will that do SD and Thomas…so this makes Lotusgirl spot on chappies…sorry SD and Thomas…both of you are up the creek without a paddle.

None of these things are “real”? Why not?

And how do I give up my attachment to my eyesight, and why would I want to? I wouldn’t be able to read your post if I didn’t have that sense, and you wouldn’t be able to convey whatever knowledge you’re striving to impart without others relying on their senses.

Oh dear the Buddhists are turning hostile :wink:

In your mind that maybe the case, but in actuality you have still not answered our simple question: Who is the one that remembers the changes and remembers themselves as the person who witnessed those changes over 50 years?

Why bother, to be honest. It matters not what I, yes I say. It will be disregarded as fluff.

This is now the third or fourth time you have been asked who is it the one that remembers and you have still not answered the question :wink:

To be honest I am not surprised you cannot answer the question. Even the most accomplished Buddhist scholars cannot answer this question
and this is why they lost in all debates with the Hindus. Just as you have with me :wink:

[QUOTE=Yulaw;44077]The desires are not good or bad it is the desiring that is the issue and your thinking way to much[/QUOTE]

Hmm, how can you have a desire without desiring? :smiley:

Do Buddhists hear themselves speak? :wink: If they did, and actually critically read what they write, they would
be a bit embarrased…