Oh dear, there really is no hope. Moving on now.
Yes Surya, move on till you have met Ishvara yourself or have the sound advice from a Master to back up my words…You will always, in your spiritual life ahead of you, remember me for this.xxxxxxxx Yous truly, your …Only Half Indian/Sikh, Mostly Christian, studying Buddhism, English Woman…
Thomas, to make things easier I will present the beliefs of Hinduism, Buddhism in simple language to make it clear what is believed about what happens in the after life
Buddhism: What continues are the elements that constitute the self, they are recycled and form a new self, and then that new self ceased the next moment and a new self is recycled and so on until you achieive nirvana and become completely extinguished and attain the void.
Hinduism: What continues is the subtle body(also known as soul) At death, the senses gradually begin to withdraw into the mind, and then the mind withdraws into the breath and the subtle body leaves the physical body. This is why at death one becomes delirious and begins to forget everything. The subtle body then enters the spiritual planes of reality where it reviews its entire life and the lessons its learned from that lifetime and how succesfull it was in achieiving the goals it set before it took on that life. It then spends a temporal period in the spiritual planes reaping its rewards and punishments for its actions in its recent life, helped by spiritual beings. Then it returns back and takes on a new body in order achieive its new goals. This process continues until the soul does not attain liberation and attain union with the divine.
Buddhism: What continues are the elements that constitute the self, they are recycled and form a new self, and then that new self ceased the next moment and a new self is recycled and so on until you achieive nirvana and become completely extinguished and attain the void.
Why would anyone want this?
Why is this no more depressing than the athiest’s belief that all we are is matter and that our atoms are dissipated and eventually form new substances, become parts of other people, etc.?
Just to be clear, and if you could answer the question I asked ten times, this would mean that there is absolutely no continuity of conciousness and memory. There is no connection with the new self to the old self. There would be no communication with friends and family who had died and reached this state. They would not be recognized or known.
[QUOTE=thomas;42582]Why would anyone want this?
[/QUOTE]
Interestingly there are Buddhist that would ask the same question about Christianity.
But you also have to understand there are different types of Buddhism and they do not all agree 100%. A Tibetan Buddhist will not completely agree with a Chan/Zen Buddhist and a Pure Land Buddhism will not completely agree with either of them.
So when you ask a question about Buddhism it is best to ask what sect the person answering is talking about. Many answer based on a view of Tibetan Buddhism and other based on Zen and other based on…
I tend towards Chan because I have family that are Chan Buddhist… but I also have family that are Pure Land Buddhists and I am trying to understand them as well.
May I ask what you believe, Yulaw?
Do you believe there is a continuity of consciousness from this life to the life after death and that in some way you remain the same person and retain your memory from this life?
Do you believe you would be able to communicate with others in this state, and if you knew them in this life would recognize them somehow in the next?
[QUOTE=thomas;42587]May I ask what you believe, Yulaw?
[/QUOTE]
You may ask…
Hahahaha…Yulaw, naughty…Thomas will be pulling his hair out at this…are you Thomas???
Surya…youve missed out a ton from any school of thought in Buddhism xx but at least you have tried, all 2 lines, for a learner…xx
This is why I said Buddhism is a death-religion. We Indians realised what Buddhism was, and we rejected it for the life religion of Hinduism. At one stage all of India had become Buddhist, because the emperor Asoka had adopted Buddhism. Unfortunately, it is during this period that Indian suffered a highest amount of decline and became increasingly pacificist and inactive(like any country that adopted Buddhism) Thanks, to the Hindu sage adisankarcharya, Hinduism was once again revived in India and Buddhists in India recoverted to Hinduism. Incidentally, the period when Hinduism was revived in India is known by historians as the golden age of India, where massive progress was made in engineering, architecture, science, technology.
This is not the entire story though on Buddhism. As I said earlier, and as Yulaw alluded, there are other sects of Buddhism which believe other things, but the belief in an enduring self is only in the Mahayana school of Buddhism, which is basically a Hindu inspired sect of Buddhism. They are not considered orthodox in Buddhism though. In the same way Chrisitian gnosticism is not considered orthodox.
Hinduism is a life religion because it embraces and celeberates life in all its forms and modalities and does not deny desire. The aim in Hinduism is not to escape from the world, but to become a better person in all areas of your life and to become a better and more advanced society. We promote progress and this is why we have had the most progressive civilisation on earth, with immense contributions to science, technology, arts and philosophy. It is also why we have so many festivals to celeberate everything. We easily are the most colourful religion in the world.
This is why I said Buddhism is a death-religion
You cant imagine that anything could be more right than what is on this earth, or a heaven like place afar, and what you think…we make allowances for all the suffering, saying eternally, things will change, they wont. Different era, different century, different Masters, different inventions, different lives, but essential problems stay…murder, pain, lies, suffering, anger, jealousy, ego, crying, fear of death, illness, cruelty etc…these thing will never change, never…what Buddhism tells you is there is a perfect state, but its not here. And we cant handle that…talk to people who have had near death experiences…they didn’t want to come back, they consciously experienced love like they never knew in its greatness, before. This is because they were not attached, momentarily to this human state we seek to maintain so preciously is right.
what Buddhism tells you is there is a perfect state, but its not here
It tells you that there is a perfect state called nirvana which is total nothingness/void, but no enjoyer to enjoy it.
Stop confusing your new-age stuff with the Buddhist stuff. It is easy to see how you take a bit of everything, mix it up, add your own slant to it and then present this undigestible item to everybody. We are talking about the religion of Buddhism here, not the new-age religion. So only answer questions on Buddhism if you have sufficient knowledge on Buddhism, else keep quiet on the matter.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;42607]It tells you that there is a perfect state called nirvana which is total nothingness/void, but no enjoyer to enjoy it.
Stop confusing your new-age stuff with the Buddhist stuff. It is easy to see how you take a bit of everything, mix it up, add your own slant to it and then present this undigestible item to everybody. We are talking about the religion of Buddhism here, not the new-age religion. So only answer questions on Buddhism if you have sufficient knowledge on Buddhism, else keep quiet on the matter.[/QUOTE]
Ha you crack me up Surya…I am but a humble learner, stated so, so many times, what I put is accurate, from Buddhist teachings, Tibetan…and his holiness the 14th Dalai Lama…
I have already stated on this thread I wouldn’t like to mislead anyone with my opinion (dont you actually read peoples posts Surya, are you all mouth n trousers 
) because I am learning about Buddhism…[B].so you are aiming this at the person who has stated this…His Holiness The 14th Dalai Lama[/B] its from a book…
You need to direct this to him, not me…ahum:D…knowing you, you probably would ha! you being in top 1% of spiritual knowledge like…
Love from your
New Age, 21st century Buddhist Books Reader:eek:
OK, Thomas, here is my take on Nirvana.
Nirvana is beyond space and beyond time. Another dimension. No concept of self and not-self. It is infinite. Nirvana actually means to extinguish. So it’s extinguishment of life as we know it. The eternal state of being, karma and rebirth come to an end. It is profound happiness. We are one with all. We are all. We are happy because there are no more attachments.
You know what it’s like as a christian to try to imagine God and heaven? I know I tried for years. Every time I tried to imagine God and infinity, I almost could grasp it, but alas it left. Well, it is the same with Nirvana. The Buddha cautioned us that humans don’t have the words to describe it. But this is how I choose to look at it. As mentioned earlier, there are many sects in Buddhism and each believes in Nirvana a bit differently.
As far as the self and does it continue and are there memories? Well, yes, if you are reborn. You may have vague or clear memories and impressions of who you were, etc. Much has to do with Karma. Some who have reached Nirvana in this life, are living in pure bliss, giving of themselves in service to fellow man. When one dies, it is pure speculation to be honest. But most agree, as do I, that you become one with The Absolute. One with all.
Nirvana is beyond space and beyond time. Another dimension. No concept of self and not-self. It is infinite. Nirvana actually means to extinguish. So it’s extinguishment of life as we know it. The eternal state of being, karma and rebirth come to an end. It is profound happiness. We are one with all. We are all. We are happy because there are no more attachments.
How can there be no self and there be happiness? Who is the one who is being happy if there is no self?
How can a person be “all”? If I reach Nirvana and you reach Nirvana and Joe Blo reaches Nirvana, then are there three who are happy? If so, then there is not true “oneness,” and if not, then someone isn’t happy, because someone no longer exists.
And how is this concept of Nirvana not of a religion but of science?
But most agree, as do I, that you become one with The Absolute. One with all.
One with God? Is God the Absolute?
When I die, my body will become one with the earth, but that’s not something to write home about, and is nothing to look forward to. And it’s no more attactive a concept that my mind and whatever elements there are to my spiritual nature would dissolve and become one somehow with an unseen realm.
If I believed that were my destiny, I would be totally depressed and full of despair. How can this end be seen as happiness?
I would not mind being one with all like a fish is one with the ocean. But I would not want to be one with the ocean like a cup of water poured into the ocean would be.
The Apostle Paul say that in God we live, move, and have our being. From the Christian perspective, we are and always will be a separate thing, but there is still a “oneness,” but one of uniting, and not one of annihilation as seems to be with the belief as stated here.
How can there be no self and there be happiness? Who is the one who is being happy if there is no self?
You are no longer attached to trying to achieve it. It comes as a result of letting go of attachments. It is a natural state of being. Total bliss.
When I die, my body will become one with the earth, but that’s not something to write home about, and is nothing to look forward to. And it’s no more attactive a concept that my mind and whatever elements there are to my spiritual nature would dissolve and become one somehow with an unseen realm.
In Buddhism, the body matters not. We are all a part of the whole. We are not the whole. Imagine a bicycle. Take the gears for instance. Are the gears the bicycle? No. But they do however make up part of the bicycle. The gears, along with the spokes, wheels, etc. make up the bicycle. Separately they are not the bicycle, but together they make it up. This is how Buddhists view existence. We are not separate. We are a part of everything.
The Apostle Paul say that in God we live, move, and have our being. From the Christian perspective, we are and always will be a separate thing, but there is still a “oneness,” but one of uniting, and not one of annihilation as seems to be with the belief as stated here
And from a Buddhist perspective, we are not separate. It is not annihilation Thomas. This is a misconception. When we see ourselves separately, there is ego attached. We define ourselves by this and that. We need to shed this and that. We see ourselves as a part of a much bigger picture. There is no end. We are constantly changing. Nothing is permanent. Our bodies are not permanent. They are just a vehicle. They dissolve, when we die, to become once again part of everything. I think this is a beautiful way to look at life and death. Once we no longer cling to life (usually the final attachment) we are able to end the cycle of rebirth and achieve our ultimate goal of bliss or Nirvana. We no longer try to find ‘things’ to bring us happiness. Happiness comes naturally. We just are happy without trying.
Again Thomas, The Buddha has cautioned us from trying to articulate exactly what Nirvana is. He said we cannot, as humans, put it into words. Much like Christianity when you reach Heaven. Do you know heaven? You can imagine what it may be like, but it is difficult at best to try to explain.
How can a person be “all”? If I reach Nirvana and you reach Nirvana and Joe Blo reaches Nirvana, then are there three who are happy? If so, then there is not true “oneness,” and if not, then someone isn’t happy, because someone no longer
If all three of the above reached Nirvana, for them it is bliss. And again, you are trying to dissect this too much. Of the three, if they reached Nirvana. not one of them are without bliss. No one is unhappy as they’ve reached their goal. Existence is not permanent. If we were unhappy because we no longer exist, we would not have reached Nirvana.
I think one thing has been cleared up in this thread from the very religious views of the Buddhists writing here and their apologies for its doctrines, that Buddhism is most definitely a religion.
In general we have also found in this thread that no Buddhist here really believes in the anatman doctrine, but merely pay lip service to it. They all believe in the continuation of a self, insist that we continue to exist to enjoy the perfect state called nirvana. They are not really representative of Buddhism, but more representative of new age religion.
How can a person be “all”? If I reach Nirvana and you reach Nirvana and Joe Blo reaches Nirvana, then are there three who are happy? If so, then there is not true “oneness,” and if not, then someone isn’t happy, because someone no longer
This argument also appears in Hindu philosophy. If there was only just one person, then as soon as one person had reached enlightenment, everybody would become enlightened. If one person is happy, everybody should be happy. If one person is unhappy, everybody should be unhappy. However, clearly this is not the case, thus proving that there are individual souls, each on their own journey.
And you got your summation how? Your summation of what has been said is clearly not what has been said.