Hoping for some Islamic insights. Islamophobia is something I detest and acknowledge as the west’s reaction to a culture war that is unfortunately real. I have written editorial letters promoting the acceptance of the Islamic center near 9/11. I have read things since that give me pause ( Sura 9:5 ) and I know most people are the same and don’t want to take over the world but just to live their lives best but there are in Abrahamic religions some fundamental intolerances that hard to abide, esp. Islam, it seems to me today- I hope tomorrow will bring a larger understanding, I want to believe as Kahlil Gibran said, " Different religions are like the different fingers of the same hand reaching for God ". It is possibly true that the index finger may be the best pointer of the group but they all deserve respect for the effort. I am at my lowest point in years with that simple faith I hope that some Islamic apologist can help me. Namaste
Watch these videos and come to your own conclusions:
Islam is easily the most barbaric, savage and destructive religion on this planet. It has killed hundreds of millions of Hindus in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh and the genocide against Hindus still continues.
By the way even I use to like yourself speak up against Islamaphobia and consider all religions to be one. Until, I actually did some research like you and realised that Islam was not a religion of peace and that Abrahamic religions were not valid religions at all, but religions of great death and destruction that no objective and decent human being would endorse after coming to know the facts of what exactly they did. The systematic bloodshed of hundreds of millions, if not billions of humans on this planet and the constant reign of terror will never be forgotten in human history and history will forever condemn the Abrahmic religions.
The Abrahamic religions not only destroyed human populations on this planet, they also destroyed civilisation on this planet. Ransacked universities, libraries, temples, suppressed philosophy, science and arts. They are responsible for the spiritual dark ages in and the dire state of the planet today with the vast majority of the world living in poverty, famine and war.
As I said in another thread. Words are not enough to condemn them.
Surya Deva, I watched the 2 video’s and have read many of your posts on this forum : you are grinding an ax and are focused in your vehemence. I’m not saying you are wrong about Islam but you essentially are making a call to arms. Yoga and ahimsa, if they are substantial, advise that you return love for hate. Perhaps like Ghandi did.He got the English out without violence. There were bloody wars and wars of genocide in India before the Muslims, I’m sure, The Bhagavad Gita and the Ramayana have their share of violent themes. I have great respect for Hinduism and diminishing respect for Islam but the hate engendered by those video’s are seen on the first comments read underneath them. It agreed with you and it was shameful for it’s desire for violence. I hope you reconsider the rhetoric and just tell the facts as you know them. Do not try and make me hate; it is harmful to my soul. I am reconsidering my attitude towards Islam but if many more Hindus say things like the guy commenting after the video and in your spirit, I’ll lose respect for hindus as well. Jesus said " no one here condemns thee, neither do I . Go and sin no more." Like I said, I don’t disagree with your point but I disagree with the way you make it. It is an ill wind that blows no one good. I appreciate your efforts to educate me and it has been educational. I see more violence in Islam than I did before.I hope some defender of Islam will comment here so to give me perspective. Actually, History books credit the Muslims for keeping the illumination of ancient Greece and Rome alive during the Dark Ages of Europe and thus helping further Western culture with the Renaissance. No one and no Religion is all bad. If you don’t back off a bit you stand to lose the gains made with recoil against stridency. Namaste
One should have the courage to label a spade a spade. Nobody hesitates when calling Hitler and the Nazis evil. Nobody hesitates when condemning them. Talk to a Jew today about Nazis and you will nothing but condemnation from them for the Nazis. The Germans are still answering for it today. Yet, if a Hindu who has suffered terribly at the helms of Abrahamic religions, a fate 100-fold worse than the Jew, says something against these religions they are being disrespectful
I am not making a call for arms I am making a call for calling a spade a spade. We Hindus absolutely and thoroughly condemn the Abrahamic religions for the genocide and rape of our men, women and children and our country and civilisation for 1000 years and we also also condemn them for the extermination of the Native Americans people, the Australian aboriginals and the slave trade of the blacks. We will remind the Abrahamic religions and their civilisation that they carry a horrible collective karma, and they will one day have to pay dearly for their crimes. Humans may well forget, but history doesn’t.
You simply have to get use to hearing it, just as the Germans have. Abrahamic religion bashing is thorougly deserved.
I am a solutions type of person not a problem type of person. I will gain nothing by venting in anger over what the Muslims and Christians did to my people, though sometimes when I hear about what they did, my blood boils, but I calm down, because I realise that I am a spiritual being and in this life I have taken an Indian body. I try not to become too attached to nationality. So I am looking for solutions. Here is what I propose
Expose the Abrahamic religions and their henious history. It should be taught in all schools, colleges and universities in the world so we can be clear about our human history. They did the deeds, and now they must face the facts they did.
Remove all those doctrines and organizations within the Abrahamic religion that continue to perpetrate what their forefathers did. We should not tolerate Abrahamic intolerance for other religions and accept it as just their beliefs. They are still engaged in fundamentalist and terrorist activity in the world. Civilised humans of the planet should have a problem with that
Get rid of the Abrahamic ideology of this planet and its systems of capitalism and replace it with the enlightened culture of the Dharmic religions, of which Hindu religion is the best canditate for creating a prosperous, spiritual and sustainable future. We should have Hindu systems of economics, education, science and government. The so-called secular systems we have at this moment are responsible for the dire condition of the planet.
There were bloody wars and wars of genocide in India before the Muslims, I’m sure, The Bhagavad Gita and the Ramayana have their share of violent themes.
Yes, of course there were wars. There is no single civilisation on this planet that has a spotless record and in fact it is impossible for there not to be a duality of good and bad anywhere, even within a single individual. However, what matters is the magnitude of good and bad and in that aspect India has the best record on the planet, even by todays standards it is better. There have never been Hindu or Buddhist inquisitions, crusades or genocides of indigenous cultures of others planets, this dishonour solely belongs to Abrahamic religions. In fact in ancient tmies India had colonies all over the world, what is known as greater India: in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Java, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia where both Hindusim and Buddhism flourished, but there is absolutely no history of forcibly converting the natives of these lands. Indian culture spread throughout the world peacefully.
Philip S. Rawson writes in his book The Art of South East Asia:
“The culture of India has been one of the world’s most powerful civilizing forces. Countries of the Far East, including China, Korea, Japan, Tibet and Mongolia owe much of what is best in their own cultures to the inspiration of ideas imported from India. The West, too, has its own debts.” But the members of that circle of civilizations beyond Burma scattered around the Gulf of Siam and the Java Sea, virtually owe their very existence to the creative influence of Indian ideas… No conquest or invasion, no forced conversion imposed them. They were adopted because people saw that they were good and that they could use them…"
Amaury de Riencourt (1918 - ) was born in Orleans, France. He received his B.A. from the Sorbonne and his M.A. from the University of Algiers. He is author of several books including The American empire and The Soul of India, wrote:
"The brightest sun shining over Southeast Asia in the first centuries A.D. was Indian Civilization. Waves of Indian colonists, traders, soldiers, Brahmins and Buddhist beat upon one Southeast shore after another. Great military power based on superior technical knowledge, flourishing trade fostered by the remarkable increase in maritime exchanges between India and these areas, the vast cultural superiority of the Indians, everything conspired to heighten the impact of the Indian Civilization on the Southeast Asian. Passenger ships plied regularly between the Ganges, Ceylon and Malaya in the middle of the first millennium A.D. Indian settlers from Gujarat and Kalinga colonized Java, for instance, while others set out for Burma or Cambodia. Old Indian books – the Kathasagara, the Jatakas and others – refer to these wondorous regions that set the imagination of civilized Indians on fire, to Suvarnabhumi, the fabulous “Land of Gold.” On the whole, the Indianization of Southeast Asia proceeded peacefully. Local chiefs and petty chieftains were admitted into the caste structure as Ksatriyas through a ritual known as vratyastoma, performed by an Indian Brahmin. All over Southeast Asia tremendous ruins are strewn, testifying to the immense influence of Indian Civilization. "
Indian Civilization prevailed over an immense area stretching from Afghanistan to the Pacific, including most of what is known today as Southeast Asia. Passenger ships plied regularly between the Ganges, Sri Lanka and Malaya in the middle of the first millennium A.D. Indian settlers from Gujarat and Kalinga (Orissa) colonized Java, for instance, while others set out for Burma or Cambodia. Old Indian books - the Kathasaritsagara, the Jatakas and others -refer to these wondrous regions that set the imaginations of civilized Indians on fire, to Suvarnabhumi, the fabulous “Land of Gold” as Southeast Asia was then known. And all over Southeast Asia tremendous ruins are strewn, testifying to the immense influence of Indian Civilization. Side by side, the life history of Gautama Buddha carved delicately in stone continues the bas-reliefs depicting the legendary tales of Krishna, Vishnu and Rama. Moonlight Civilization glittered in all their magnificence, reflecting Indian Civilization at a time when it had been dealt a crippling blow at home, in India, after the Mohammedans arrived.
Everywhere, Indian influence prevailed over the Chinese, and for evident reasons: an undoubted cultural superiority owing to much greater philosophic and religious insight. Indian Civilization respected the political autonomy of its colonies and the cultural freedom of all its units, and, on the whole, worked through peaceful penetration. The Chinese, on the other hand, proceeded by conquest, assimilation and absorption into all encompassing Chinese Civilization.
(source: The Soul of India - By Amaury de Riencourt ISBN 0907855032 p. 157-162).
This really tells you the difference doesn’t it, between the Dharma civilisation and the Abrahamic civilisation. India’s martime empires with their ships travelled around the world trading and sharing knowledge and religion with the natives, who adapted it into their own cultural fold. On the other hand when Muslims and the Christians set seas, all they could see was subjects to exploit, wealth to be looted and souls to be harvested or exterminated in the name of their religion.
Is it even right to speak of Hinduism and Buddhism in the same breath as the Abrahamic religions? Probably as right as it is to speak of sages and serial killers in the same breath.
Today in Iran …today…on BBC news a woman who has been accused of adultery was going to be stoned but instead they have decided to hang her!!! BBC news
Hitler and Nazi’s are primarily a State and political evil- I don’t regard their religion , just the lack of one, as the reason for the evil. A self-fulfilling prophecy is where you condemn an ethnic group based on religion, incite violence against it and then say it was karma after they suffer for your hate-mongering. The evil done throughout History by this and that conqueror in the name of this and that religion is not necessarily the fault of the religion. I can see where this is personal for you and I can understand that and I can believe that Abrahamic religions carry some violence in their roots; what I’m trying to decide here is whether it’s evolution, which I remind you has produced Jesus, many saints, Rumi, Whirling dervishes etc. is ultimately reaching for God. I speak out against hate , as in the hanging above and Islamophobia ( to prevent such things here ( Mosques have been bombed )). I haven’t looked at the other letters here before I wrote this in response to Surya Deva " calling a spade a spade " , which is what every self-righteous person claims. I hope that since you have made your point in spades you will settle and see if someone wishes to defend Islam here. Otherwise, this post will devolve down to the level of fans before a soccer game shouting at each other. Namaste
I think very highly of India and it’s history but if you were not so hate-focused you could see that Abrahamic religious cultures have also done great things, you name only bad-that should tell you that you don’t look at it objectively. India also has a darker side in history : Untouchables and Setee and mass killings during war ,comes to mind, India has a wonderful culture and hopefully is getting better- I don’t judge it just by it’s worst aspects and Abrahamic religions have their accomplishments as well. I am not here as a defender of the later but your vitriol and one-sidedness have had an undesirable effect. In Life somethings are created by hate and fear- a dark alley isn’t necessarily dangerous except our fear creates dangers. You have strongly stated your case, wait a week before you add to it. I will also wait and see so that you can have the last word here, if you like. Namaste
Hitler and Nazi’s did good as well, they made a lot of progress in science and technology, they turned the German economy into a prosperous and productive economy and Hitler also fought for animals rights. Is that the equivalent of the holocausts they did? No of course not. No matter what good the Abrahamic religions did, it is completery overwhelmed by 2000 years of endless bloodshed of billions of people on this planet.
Like I said no condemnation by words is enough. I also said to compare Hinduism and Buddhism to the Abrahamic religion is like comparing a saint with a serial killer. There are not equivalent evils within Hinduism and Buddhism. Like I said show me the Hindu inquisitions, crusades and genocide of other people?
Sati and castism are just isolated practices which took place in India during the 1000 years of Muslim and British reign. The video clearly shows the first act of sati recorded was when thousands of Indian women in their fort commited suicide through self-immolation when Muslims where breaking through the fort of the city. It was a practice that Indian women commited in order save their honour. It is easy to see just what brutal conditions Hindu people lived in during the Muslim reign from the videos. Casteism on the other hand takes place during the British rule.
Surya Deva- whose leg are you pulling ? A simple google gets you dates for caste system origins and Sati , both of which are ancient, long before there was a Muslim or before the British rule of India. The Caste system was brought to India by the Aryans in 1500 BC and the latest time given for the origins of Sati were the 1st century AD. Here are some Indian genocides : http://intersections.anu.edu.au/issue22/banerji.htm and Asoka became Buddhist out of remorse for the slaughter of many thousands. He is remarkable because of his conversion not because he killed so many, others not remembered by history slaughtered genocidically . I think you are correct that more genocide has been done to Hindu’s than vice versa,that is less likely due to religion than opportunity, like everywhere else, many people can cast off religion as it suits there political needs. The main gospel of Hindu’s, the Bhagavad Gita is basically a spiritual lesson on a battlefield whose lines are drawn by Family line. Women are 2nd class citizens in many parts of India as is tradition. I saw a movie about that, can’t remember it’s name but it was done by non-muslim Indians about the subjugation of women-denial of education and forced marriages. I think the world of the good aspects of Indian culture but your one-sidedness forces the bad side out. I thought we were here on yoga forums to learn ashtanga- the 8 limbs -the 1st being ahimsa- which occurs with our words as well. You seem to be laying the groundwork for violence against Muslims- this is what Hitler did before the Jews were gassed, say they were sub-human, say they wanted to take over the world, say they were behind all of history’s wrongs and sufferings.Once people agreed to those premises extermination was easier. I bow to the spirit in your heart that knows better than this.
Here’s a website dedicated to showing that the Hindu religion isn’t a talisman protecting a society from wars for ethnic and religious dominance http://www.chowk.com/articles/14150
I don’t like that this has gone from a simple request for information ( explanation for Sura 9.5 ) to trying to find fault with entire ethnic groups. I have little besides admiration for Indian culture . Reaching for God should cast Light not shadow. Namaste
Your argument is a strawman basically. You think by pointing out isolated cases of violence in the history of Hinduism you will be able to somehow justify the endless genocide in Abrahamic religions.
This argument is almost as bad as showing that if you can point out that somebody has commited a petty crime, then it is equivalent of commiting the most henious of crimes.
Clearly things are not so black and white. Violence can be measured on a spectruum. A few cases of wars and exaggerated isolated cultural practices is not at all eqiuvalent to 2000 years of endless death and destuction where billions in the planet have been put to death in cold blood in the inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings etc And if you think it is we should stop this discussion here.
The Gita is set on a battlefield in a war between kingdoms and I already said at the start that of course wars took place in ancient India. The reason for that war was not however religious crusade, or the killing of non believers, it was between kings for kingdoms. In this particular war, it is between the Pandavas and the Kuruvs, who are cousins but the Pandavas have been robbed of their entitements(they are entitled to the kingdom legally) and they are fighting to reclaim their land. These wars that took place also took place in an honorable way miles away from the civilian areas, and there was a warrior code of conduct as well. For example, there was rules that there would be no war during night, each of the armies would retire to their camps after a day of fighting. Fights would only take place between equals on the battlefield and they would be 1 on 1. You could not hit somebody from behind, you had to fight face-face.
The battle of Kalinga by Asoka was also not fought for religious reasons, but once again between kings for kingdoms. It was a terrible battle between the Asoka empire and the Kalinga republic. Asoka was so moved by the aftermath of the destruction on both sides that he later adopted Buddhism:
As Ramesh Prasad Mohapatra remarks, "No war in the history of India as important either for its intensity or for its results as the Kalinga war of Ashoka. No wars in the annals of the human history has changed the heart of the victor from one of wanton cruelty to that of an exemplary piety as this one. From its fathomless womb the history of the world may find out only a few wars to its credit which may be equal to this war and not a single one that would be greater than this. The political history of mankind is really a history of wars and no war has ended with so successful a mission of the peace for the entire war-torn humanity as the war of Kalinga."
So even the few cases of violent episodes in Hindu history you can point out actually have honourable qualities. Even to what are considered to be evil kings in Hindu history, like Duryodhana, what the Abrahamics did would be considered deplorable and henious beyond the imagination.
The Abrahamics killed innocent men, women and children simply because they saw them as inferior beings because they had other religions and this terrible bloodshed was done systematically over 2000 years. Wherever they found pagans, they slaughtered them in cold blood or tortured and raped them. They merely had to just turn up on the shores of a foreign land and if they found pagans they would immediately start slaughtering them in tens of thousands at a time with glee. There is nothing even remotely close to this in Hindu history. In fact, as has already been pointed out already with citations, Hindus never subjugated the people of their colonies outside of India. They had colonies all over the world and there is no single record of violence against the natives or a suppression of their traditions and beliefs.
So sorry Hindu history simply is not even remotely as bloody as that of the Abrahamics and you are fooling yourself if you think it is. Not only are you having trouble labelling a spade a spade, you are also having trouble giving credit where credit is due.
Regarding treatment of Women and casteism. I have already covered this issue to death in other threads, and I really can’t be bothered writing out fresh long posts on it. So please just read from here:
Read pages 8-11
The above shows with very clear evidence and plenty of citations that
The treatment of women within Hinduism prior to the foreign invasions was the best in the world. They had property rights, rights to divorce and remarriage, rights to education and work. In fact, arguably maybe even better rights than they have today.
Casteism as an endemic problem only existed in British India. Prior to British rule there was no institutionalized religion or clergy to oppress anybody and education was widely available to all sections of Indian society, with the majority attendence being by lower castes. The painting of the Brahmin caste as terrible oppressors was British colonial propoganda because the Brahmin caste was highly educated, intelligent and influencial in Indian society and they were proving to be huge obstacle for British rule in India and Christian conversion. About 70% of the freedom fighters who thought against the British were Brahmin and Brahmins were also amongst the highest casualties.
The British seeked to villify the Bramins by enlisting the help of scholars in European universities who spread propoganda against them. A sort of colonial version of modern psy ops. They turned some sections of Indian society against them by depicting them as foreign invaders(Aryans from Europe) by constructing false histories and false translations of sacred Brahmin texts. This is even admitted by the European scholars who were involved in this propoganda campaign. They could get away with this because they owned education, media and were the rulers - a supercaste - the white sabhib that Indians had to look up to. As they had outlawed all traditional systems of Indian education and industry the next generations of Indian had barely any native representation, and they started to accept these myths they circulated and this is why modern Indians have an inferiority complex about their history and native culture.
All wars are fought by Kings for Kingdoms whether they say it is for religion or not. Muslims went to India not because they saw them as idolaters but because India was a very wealthy country. Your ax that you grind ad nauseum is aimed at the religious, some of whom may be misguided but surely not most, the religious urge in most springs from good places, a wish to unite with the divine. You probably should aim lower at the urge to dominate, which you and I share to some degree. You didn’t address any of the woman’s issues; that’s genocide of a sort and it’s 50 million ( purportedly ), that number is at least as substantiated as yours because giving Abrahamic religion responsibility for all that you attribute to it is takin a large shovel to history, as I said wars are not often about religion though they may be called that. You lionize Hinduism, which I also view very highly, but
if you can say that Abrahamic religions are the cause of wars then hinduism should be seen as the cause of India’s ancient wars; plus add in statistical analysis of the number of hindu’s vs. Abrahamic religions numbers and you can get a proportionate value that may make it seem more endemic to humans not religions. Namaste
Nope my friend, you are trying very hard but it is not working. The Muslims killed innocent Indian women, women and children because they were idolators with such barbarity that it actually shakes the soul inside. Tens of thousands would be killed at a time. There is nothing to match the barbarity of the Muslim onslaught of the Hindus.
Wars that took place in ancient India took place between kings in battlefields under a warrior code of conduct. If the king was defeated the new king would take over the old kingdom. The killing of innocent men, women and children civilians was virtually unheard of.
You clearly cannot see the difference between wars between kings and the systematic slaughter of innocent men, women and children. The first is called a war, the second is called genocide. The systematic extermination of a people.