Is Islam ( Abrahamic religion ) violent according to it's Quo'ran?

Spirituality Religion
#16

Your argument is a strawman basically. You think by pointing out isolated cases of violence in the history of Hinduism you will be able to somehow justify the endless genocide in Abrahamic religions.
This argument is almost as bad as showing that if you can point out that somebody has commited a petty crime, then it is equivalent of commiting the most henious of crimes.

Clearly things are not so black and white. Violence can be measured on a spectruum. A few cases of wars and exaggerated isolated cultural practices is not at all eqiuvalent to 2000 years of endless death and destuction where billions in the planet have been put to death in cold blood in the inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings etc And if you think it is we should stop this discussion here.

The Gita is set on a battlefield in a war between kingdoms and I already said at the start that of course wars took place in ancient India. The reason for that war was not however religious crusade, or the killing of non believers, it was between kings for kingdoms. In this particular war, it is between the Pandavas and the Kuruvs, who are cousins but the Pandavas have been robbed of their entitements(they are entitled to the kingdom legally) and they are fighting to reclaim their land. These wars that took place also took place in an honorable way miles away from the civilian areas, and there was a warrior code of conduct as well. For example, there was rules that there would be no war during night, each of the armies would retire to their camps after a day of fighting. Fights would only take place between equals on the battlefield and they would be 1 on 1. You could not hit somebody from behind, you had to fight face-face.

The battle of Kalinga by Asoka was also not fought for religious reasons, but once again between kings for kingdoms. It was a terrible battle between the Asoka empire and the Kalinga republic. Asoka was so moved by the aftermath of the destruction on both sides that he later adopted Buddhism:

As Ramesh Prasad Mohapatra remarks, "No war in the history of India as important either for its intensity or for its results as the Kalinga war of Ashoka. No wars in the annals of the human history has changed the heart of the victor from one of wanton cruelty to that of an exemplary piety as this one. From its fathomless womb the history of the world may find out only a few wars to its credit which may be equal to this war and not a single one that would be greater than this. The political history of mankind is really a history of wars and no war has ended with so successful a mission of the peace for the entire war-torn humanity as the war of Kalinga."[6]

So even the few cases of violent episodes in Hindu history you can point out actually have honourable qualities. Even to what are considered to be evil kings in Hindu history, like Duryodhana, what the Abrahamics did would be considered deplorable and henious beyond the imagination.

The Abrahamics killed innocent men, women and children simply because they saw them as inferior beings because they had other religions and this terrible bloodshed was done systematically over 2000 years. Wherever they found pagans, they slaughtered them in cold blood or tortured and raped them. They merely had to just turn up on the shores of a foreign land and if they found pagans they would immediately start slaughtering them in tens of thousands at a time with glee. There is nothing even remotely close to this in Hindu history. In fact, as has already been pointed out already with citations, Hindus never subjugated the people of their colonies outside of India. They had colonies all over the world and there is no single record of violence against the natives or a suppression of their traditions and beliefs.

So sorry Hindu history simply is not even remotely as bloody as that of the Abrahamics and you are fooling yourself if you think it is. Not only are you having trouble labelling a spade a spade, you are also having trouble giving credit where credit is due.

#17

Regarding treatment of Women and casteism. I have already covered this issue to death in other threads, and I really can’t be bothered writing out fresh long posts on it. So please just read from here:

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f33/is-yoga-hinduism-6369-8.html

Read pages 8-11

The above shows with very clear evidence and plenty of citations that

  1. The treatment of women within Hinduism prior to the foreign invasions was the best in the world. They had property rights, rights to divorce and remarriage, rights to education and work. In fact, arguably maybe even better rights than they have today.

  2. Casteism as an endemic problem only existed in British India. Prior to British rule there was no institutionalized religion or clergy to oppress anybody and education was widely available to all sections of Indian society, with the majority attendence being by lower castes. The painting of the Brahmin caste as terrible oppressors was British colonial propoganda because the Brahmin caste was highly educated, intelligent and influencial in Indian society and they were proving to be huge obstacle for British rule in India and Christian conversion. About 70% of the freedom fighters who thought against the British were Brahmin and Brahmins were also amongst the highest casualties.

The British seeked to villify the Bramins by enlisting the help of scholars in European universities who spread propoganda against them. A sort of colonial version of modern psy ops. They turned some sections of Indian society against them by depicting them as foreign invaders(Aryans from Europe) by constructing false histories and false translations of sacred Brahmin texts. This is even admitted by the European scholars who were involved in this propoganda campaign. They could get away with this because they owned education, media and were the rulers - a supercaste - the white sabhib that Indians had to look up to. As they had outlawed all traditional systems of Indian education and industry the next generations of Indian had barely any native representation, and they started to accept these myths they circulated and this is why modern Indians have an inferiority complex about their history and native culture.

#18

All wars are fought by Kings for Kingdoms whether they say it is for religion or not. Muslims went to India not because they saw them as idolaters but because India was a very wealthy country. Your ax that you grind ad nauseum is aimed at the religious, some of whom may be misguided but surely not most, the religious urge in most springs from good places, a wish to unite with the divine. You probably should aim lower at the urge to dominate, which you and I share to some degree. You didn’t address any of the woman’s issues; that’s genocide of a sort and it’s 50 million ( purportedly ), that number is at least as substantiated as yours because giving Abrahamic religion responsibility for all that you attribute to it is takin a large shovel to history, as I said wars are not often about religion though they may be called that. You lionize Hinduism, which I also view very highly, but

#19

if you can say that Abrahamic religions are the cause of wars then hinduism should be seen as the cause of India’s ancient wars; plus add in statistical analysis of the number of hindu’s vs. Abrahamic religions numbers and you can get a proportionate value that may make it seem more endemic to humans not religions. Namaste

#20

Nope my friend, you are trying very hard but it is not working. The Muslims killed innocent Indian women, women and children because they were idolators with such barbarity that it actually shakes the soul inside. Tens of thousands would be killed at a time. There is nothing to match the barbarity of the Muslim onslaught of the Hindus.

Wars that took place in ancient India took place between kings in battlefields under a warrior code of conduct. If the king was defeated the new king would take over the old kingdom. The killing of innocent men, women and children civilians was virtually unheard of.

You clearly cannot see the difference between wars between kings and the systematic slaughter of innocent men, women and children. The first is called a war, the second is called genocide. The systematic extermination of a people.

#21

if you can say that Abrahamic religions are the cause of wars then hinduism should be seen as the cause of India’s ancient wars; plus add in statistical analysis of the number of hindu’s vs. Abrahamic religions numbers and you can get a proportionate value that may make it seem more endemic to humans not religions. Namaste

That is truly a very silly argument lol

Look Hinduism does not tell you to go around killing non believers, in fact it does not tell you to war either, for ahimsa is one of the cardinal principles of Hinduism. Non-violence is an ideal that has always been preferable to Hindus, violence should only be used as a last resort and even then it must be measured and ethical.

There is no history of genocide, inquisitions, colonialism or witch burning in Hindu history. To Hindus this is demonic.

Abrahamic religions do in fact tell you to go around killing non believers or convert them. Abrahamic religions do in fact have clergies that officially ordain actions like genocide, inquisitions, witch burning.

Hinduism has no clergy. It is a religion that teaches self-development through knowledge and techniques and leaves the decision of how one wants to practice religion up to the individual. It gives you freedom to choose your own deities, your own means of worship, your own philosophies and your own goals in life. As it is not an organized religion it does not impose any dogma on you. There is no compulsion to attend any temples, read any scripture or do anything. You can do whatever you like, so as long you know there are consequences to your actions.

Hinduism is famous for its pluralism and its tolerance. Abrahamic religions are not.

#22

Hinduism in a nut shell is a religion of the self. It is all about you and how can you be happier, wiser and loving person. It is about the development and management of your body, mind and soul. In order to help you achieive this the sages of Hinduism have created systems of education, society, sciences, arts, temples and literature, and even to date the modern sages of Hinduism have been doing that. There is nobody within Hinduism to force you to do anything. All that is required of you is the honesty to remain true to your experience and logic. Do not succumb to faith and speculation.

#23

You still did not address the 50,000,000. Some people who profess Abrahamic religions do bad things as some hindu’s do, I believe that Hinduism is in many ways a great religion. Followed properly Abrahamic religions do not ask their followers to hate but to love, Jesus came to the gentiles and told his apostles to preach the gospel to everyone and he said the commandments are but 2, to love God and your neighbor. Jesus Christ said that, good Christians do this, Hindu’s can also be good or bad as they choose. Hindu’s believe that the one God has many aspects and you can worship the one through the many. Why can’t you ? Why can’t you support the good in Islam- such as the Sufi’s, and Rumi, the love poet, instead of labeling them as unredeemably bad ? If I heard many hindu’s talk like you I would be less inclined to have the good feelings I do have towards it. How many people here listening have decided to villanize Islam because of Surya Deva’s copious arguments ? Kareng, seems to have already been of this opinion, which is valid, I can believe in an inherent flaw in Abrahamic religions. I don’t ascribe to them the crimes of humanity or advocate anything but goodwill towards those of goodwill- and I don’t make that in abstract terms. Please let me and Surya Deva know if these postings were definitive for you. Namaste

#24

@TonyTamer

I’ve been hesitant posting anything further on the religious forum as I’ve grown tired of it. I’ve enjoyed your recent postings and you have brought many new insights into the discussion and echoed what many of us have tried to say in numerous threads. Thank you!

Other thoughts:

I just deleted an entire paragraph because I no longer want to be caught up in any discussion that is going no where. SD, you don’t need to win every argument. Listen to the good people of this forum for a change. It might surprise you to find out they also have many good ideas and have agreed with many of the things you have said but have been too set “on the win” to see it. We have common ground here. It is called Yoga. Let us use our yoga to collectively try to understand that which we don’t, and to accept things that we have no control over. As I see it, there is no battle. Only kind gentle souls. Some just need to be pried out a bit!

#25

Followed properly Abrahamic religions do not ask their followers to hate but to love

You really should go and tell this to the surviving Native Americans, Australian Aboriginals, Pagans and the Hindus in India. Crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings were not just done by people who were members of Abrahamic religion, they were ordained by the actual clergies of these religions, by Popes, Caliphs etc Furthermore, the actual scriptures of these religion do in fact teach a hate doctrine against people who are not members of their relgion. The bible and Quran both prescribes death for this.

Why can’t you support the good in Islam- such as the Sufi’s, and Rumi, the love poet, instead of labeling them as unredeemably bad

Who said I don’t? I love Sufism and have great respect for the Sufis. But they are a tiny minority in Islam, considered heretics and many of them were put to death as well. They are not at all representative of Islam. In fact Sufis did not exist until at least two centuries after Mohammed, and in all likeliness Sufis were the left over mystics in pre-Islamic Arabia, who adopted Islamic beliefs and practices to survive.

Now why can’t you support the good the Nazis did?

#26

SD, you don’t need to win every argument. Listen to the good people of this forum for a change. It might surprise you to find out they also have many good ideas and have agreed with many of the things you have said but have been too set “on the win” to see it.

If you mean by good people, people who have double standards and cry in horror against what was done to the Jews by the Nazis, but ignore what was done to the Hindus, Native Americans, Aboriginies, Pagans by the Abrahamic religons etc, then I am obviously not a good person.

Ignoring history does not make you good, it simply makes you ignorant.

#27

Amongst (contemporary) Germans ,Nazi history and the Holocaust is still really a touchy subject, even today.You would think that Germans would be comforftable today talking about it but they’re sill really sensitive and it’s still quite taboo if you were to bring it up, certaiinly as a foreigner, outsider. It’s like they still feel really embarrased about their past history,as if ashamed, they feel there’s little to nothing they can do about it.

There is evidence today to show that Naziism could have emerged in Britain, and indeed it did so ,between the war years,before the brink of WW2.Parties like the BNP were rife then and they preyed on anti-semitic & other mixed-up feelings & ideologies.

#28

Oh Surya. Sometimes you are your own worst enemy! You are still in the mindset of" I gotta win at all costs". What’s it costing you? We have gone over and over trying to explain our reasoning. You have selectively chosen not to listen. I believe it is your loss in the end.

#29

Glad that you can accept non-hindu’s as human-there’s hope for you yet. As far as all the rest- I believe conquerors conquer for areligious reasons whether they say so or not. Hindu’s have conquerors as well. I truly love the Hindu way. Namaste

#30

Hey, even quite a few Americans at the time , 1930’s,were quite friendly with and admired the Nazis , until they probably realised they were not with the British.The U.S however did a great deal to help with the blockade and protect traffic,supplies and so forth, in the Atlantic during the war for the U.K and it’s allies.

#31

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;38921]Oh Surya. Sometimes you are your own worst enemy! You are still in the mindset of" I gotta win at all costs". What’s it costing you? We have gone over and over trying to explain our reasoning. You have selectively chosen not to listen. I believe it is your loss in the end.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be the enemy of truth.

I don’t care about winning debates, I care about what is true. I believe it is your loss, if you would rather believe in a lie than a truth.

The truth is, and it is unanimous if one looks at history, that the Abrahamic religions have been the most violent and destructive phenomenon in the history of this planet. Everybody has heard of the inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings, jihads and we know they were done on the orders of their religious authorities.

Anybody can pick up the Bible and the Quran and read them and read that they do indeed preach hate doctrines against other religions and prescribe death to their followers.

Unfortunately, people like you who claim to be all about love and peace, do a huge disservice to the progress of love and peace on this planet, by preventing criticism of genuine evils in society and allowing them to continue unabated.

Let me ask you an honest question: Do you think we should ignore what the Nazis did and stop teaching that history?

#32

Love and peace start with the individual- if it is not there then where will it come from- I think a yoga forums site is a place for individual improvement via opening the heart. I agree that horrible things were done by people who call themselves Muslims to people who call themselves Hindu, it is up to the individual to live up to his ideals. Your overview of History is godlike in its scope and ungodlike in its empathy towards others, both here at this forum and towards those who find themselves on a path circumstance placed them. BTW you are wrong in your assessment of Sufi’s, both as non-representative of " Muslims " ( like saying the word normal )and their tangential importance and numbers, google it. Of the 1.3 billion muslims, 20% are sufi ( They are the ones building the NY city Mosque at the 9/11 site ), They have been fundamental adherents from the beginning,believers in both the sacredness of the Qu’ran and Muhammad - History of Sufism
Origins
In its early stages of development Sufism effectively referred to nothing more than the internalization of Islam .According to one perspective, it is directly from the Qur’an, constantly recited, meditated, and experienced, that Sufism proceeded, in its origin and its development. Others have held that Sufism is the strict emulation of the way of Muhammad, through which the heart’s connection to the Divine is strengthened.

From the traditional Sufi point of view, the esoteric teachings of Sufism were transmitted from Muhammad

#33

Your overview of History is godlike in its scope and ungodlike in its empathy towards others, both here at this forum and towards those who find themselves on a path circumstance placed them.

I simply state the facts. I have no concern for such things as empathy when giving facts. The facts speak for themselves.

The Abrahamic religions did evil deeds, and now they will have to face what they did. Condemnation.

Alternatively, Hinduism did good deeds, and now it is getting the appreciation for what it has done. Praise.

Although Sufis believe that their teachings come from Muhammed and they offer selected verses out of the Quran to support it, there is no historical evidence for it. The history shows that Sufism appeared at least 2 centuries later, and it was not a welcome development in Islam by all means.

I give credit where credit is due and criticism where criticism is due. I am very consistent.
This is because all I care about is what is true. I could careless if what is true offends or hurts somebody else, because truth always remains truth.

#34

If you are concerned with just facts and truth why is it you so easily contradict things like the Sufi history ? I checked my facts from 2 sources easily googled and while that’s no guaratee they are facts , I’d think with your respect for truth you’d allow other references enough credibility to say they might be true. You also don’t address the main point of the Sufi point which is that they are Muslim both in spirit and influence ( remember the population statistics ?) The devil can cite scripture for his purposes say one philosophy about ‘just the facts’ and the whole is greater than the sum of it’s parts, another appropriate idea. As Emerson said, " A foolish consistency is the Hobgoblin of little minds ". I do not think you have a little mind but I do think you have myopia and until you have empathy you have little chance of knowing the Truth. You’ll be stuck in a dark corner alone, an orphan who won’t let himself be adopted. That’s extreme because I know you have your friends (probably your closest are also zealots ), but your heart won’t beat free until it expands to include your Muslim brothers and sisters as well. You don’t get 1.3 billion followers from just coercion , there must be redeeming qualities you can accentuate to allow Islam itself respect. Shalom

#35

SD, you don’t need to win every argument. Listen to the good people of this forum for a change. It might surprise you to find out they also have many good ideas and have agreed with many of the things you have said but have been too set “on the win” to see it. We have common ground here. It is called Yoga. Let us use our yoga to collectively try to understand that which we don’t, and to accept things that we have no control over. As I see it, there is no battle. Only kind gentle souls. Some just need to be pried out a bit!

I just held out an olive branch and you whacked the whole tree down! Do you not like olives?

You seem to be the enemy of truth.

I don’t care about winning debates, I care about what is true. I believe it is your loss, if you would rather believe in a lie than a truth.

When one speaks the truth, they must consider what is said, how it is said and if it will harm someone. If you speak the truth and it has negative consequences it is better to say nothing. (Satya) And if you are not responsible with ‘the truth’ it can be used as a weapon against others causing them harm (Ahimsa) With Ahimsa, one’s thoughts words and actions are non-violent. You would not harm another person because you realize as an individual you are intimately connected to life’s fabric.

So, as I see it, the truth about the Abrahamic religions being violent, if practicing Ahimsa and Satya, can be said in such a way as to not offend. If it offends one person, it should not be said. Period. This is yoga.

Unfortunately, people like you who claim to be all about love and peace, do a huge disservice to the progress of love and peace on this planet, by preventing criticism of genuine evils in society and allowing them to continue unabated.

Let me ask you an honest question: Do you think we should ignore what the Nazis did and stop teaching that history?

I have not prevented anyone from expressing their opinion. Opinions can be expressed in such a way as not to offend. And what good would it do to keep harboring these ill views of Abrahamic religions? What violence occurred in the name of religion is well documented in history books. It is taught in school. It is taught in religion class. It is taught with the sincere hope that these blemishes will never happen again. It has taught us all a lesson. And no, we should not stop teaching what the Nazi’s did. Just like I don’t think we should stop teaching about the crusades, etc. I do not judge all Germans today based on what atrocities the Nazi’s carried out in WWII. You should not judge all Abrahamic religions based on what was done many years ago. No one has denied these things. Just as you should not deny some of the violence in India, albeit more in recent times.

And I will ignore the comment about, “people like me” as it doesn’t deserve a reply.